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Killer mains help me understand...



  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Note that some alternatives would include giving a way for the Killer to stop DS from activating in the first place. For example with borrowed time, so long as the Survivor on the hook isn't in your terror radius the perks effect won't activate.

    Unless your name is Pyramid Head, you have to hook Survivors at some point, so they will inevitably be unhooked thus activating the perk. This is why Adrenaline is a non-issue by comparison, since you can absolutely be expected to stop the last gen from popping under normal circumstances.

    For the purposes of the scenario in the video we can replace Adrenaline with Unbreakable for a similar outcome so this doesn't resolve the no-win scenario. But it does explain why I'm targeting DS instead of Adrenaline or Unbreakable here.

  • SewerSwansSewerSwans Member Posts: 147

    Unbreakable & DS; Vs good survivors who split pressure and pound gens, losing half of 3 separate gens during a 40 second find-chase-hook progression is not viable. That's assuming a 10 second find, a 20 second chase and a 10 second carry to hook. Which I think is quite generous, vs good players. Injuries don't cut it as pressure because skilled loopers with Iron Will and Dead Hard are comfortable playing injured and don't heal.

    So how can you possibly get enough pressure?

    You slug one, then chase one, and someone has to get the slug. That's 3 people off gens, briefly. The more the survivors apply split pressure, the bigger the map, the more it compensates.

    Enter Unbreakable and DS. DS enables the 'stay injured' meta by allowing unhooked players to put extra pressure on the killer for a minute instead of receiving extra pressure from the killer & having to heal. Unbreakable then punishes the killer for trying to counter 'stay injured, pound gens' by slugging. Doubly so if there's DS!

    You let the active DS repair vital gens for free? Poor gen cluster, punished. You down and pick up? You spent time to lose pressure, punished. You down and slug? Unbreakable, you spent time to lose pressure, punished.

    The only way to deal with any of these perks is to allow the survivor to get huge value out of them, because their activation condition is "killer fulfilled their objective". That's why they're so strong. If you don't tunnel the DS, they'll do gens in your face injured.

    If you don't slug the Unbreakables, you give up too much time & too much chase potential hooking everyone every down, and lose.

    These perks promote a really unhealthy playstyle where gen time is all survivors need to think about.

  • OldHunterLightOldHunterLight Member Posts: 3,000

    "Just hitting them" by giving them a chance to make it more far away, and no I'm being theoretically, but I've had constant body blocks from survivors with BT when I'm clearly not going after them and that hit that you could've done to the unhooker is enough to actually down most of the time but let's assume they have DS and unbreakable like most of the time that people run DS in my experience, it's a free save and it's not an advantage to slug them most of the time, if they use unbreakable they still have the faster recovery and will have DS by the egc so unless 60 seconds have passed, it's a free escape.

    What perks nullify those perks? Noed? It does but I don't use it. Dark devotion? Unless it's the obsession who is not unhooking it doesn't work. Devour hope? Technically it works but it's another hex totem.

    You gave Infinite T3 Myers as an example, yeah no, the amount of time it takes to get you the infinite against good survivors......

    Check the video above of Scott Jund, even a really good killer gets hit by DS when he wasn't tunneling, except the Kate but not the Claudette.

    I'm not saying to not use DS, I just want people to not abuse plays like that.

    Basically what @Blueberry is saying is what I want to say but it's 4 a.m and I can't think straight.

  • MapersonMaperson Member Posts: 1,703

    The thing i don't like about those perks Is that the survivors can make reckless, bold and stupied bad plays and still punish killer for good play, it removes that little horror in the game where you try to not get seen, not get cought bcs whatever happens u will have that few second chance's.. Its okay to have one second chance, everyone make bad plays, it happens, but if you make a more bad plays you deserve to get killed, with those perks it removes that threat, i think survivors should feel that the killer Is big threat that wants to kill them and they shouldn't make mistakes bcs it can cost them very much.. Its just my opinion

  • hahadrillgobrrrhahadrillgobrrr Member Posts: 953

    I don't mind solos running them but when full swf runs every meta perk, including that fkin OoO, and abuses the fk out of them, then it becomes an issue.

  • DCh4rlieDCh4rlie Member Posts: 62
    edited June 2020

    Because they are meta perks and it's boring and unfun to face metas. Usually they are also paired up with a lot of sweat.

    Before anyone complains (I know, I know)... that's just the surv. side of the story, same goes for killer aswell.

  • RizeAkiRizeAki Member Posts: 1,209

    tbh same is said about survivors thinking Noed is game breaking yet it’s countered before it activates But On your point I don’t find much of an issue to them if they are used as they should be when it comes to doing these sort of exploits I guess you could call them with them then it’s annoying but all in all wasting bt or ds to do a tech can just cause you to be tunneled so that’s on them 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♀️

  • HuffHuff Member Posts: 1,480

    Simple: each of these perks (among some others) give survivors a "second chance." One alone isn't bad, but when every survivor is running multiple, it simply puts the killer in a situation where they have to play much more effectively and maybe even like a douchebag (which not all killers like doing) just to stand a chance.

    It would be one thing if games were longer, but as of now... I don't know. I personally think it's a bit too much with how fast matches are.

  • emptyCupsemptyCups Member Posts: 1,262

    There is no killer perk that downs an injured survivor

    1But there is a perk that heals a downed survivor to injured instantly.

    There's no killer perk that pulls a survivor into your grasp

    2But there is a perk that breaks the killers grasp effectively saving them from a hook/death

    There's no killer perk that stuns a survivor for doing there objective

    3But there is a lengthy stun perk for survivors to use.

    You may be thinking wow a killer with a loadout of perks that does that ? No way would they loose running those. Gg ez 4k evry ddayy.

    But a single survivor perk does all that ?

    Nah its fine.

    And you know something ?

    It would be... if only the Obsession had it.

    Or if it didn't work tons of synergy with almost every other meta perk.

    Like imagine if surge pop and ruin all worked together? Picture every gen always regressing and then every down they all explode for 8% and every hook they reset 25% or...

    wowza worse imagine if they combined. Like pop was the next gen you damage looses 25 and then you hit a surge and blow 3 gens with a pop power

    But DH BT DS Adrenaline yeah those can all work together...

    You can dodge a clear hit with DH save on the cooldown and BT a survivor off the hook for clear hit number two ignored then even if you down this guy you can't get him anyway because ds will just let him escape. Adrenaline pops and everyone jumps up or fully heals and runs for the gates...

    From killer mains across the board its not these perks that are so powerful its that killer perks are so weak and survivor perks work so well together to be collectively nasty when entire groups use them. A 4 squad means 4 ds stuns (20 seconds of 3 survivors each doing gens is an entire gen) 4 adrenaline is 4 slugs getting up or 4 people fully healed with gates ready to open. 4 DH is at least 4 clear hits avoided if not 4 loops restarted that's enough for gens to pop.

    That's my thinking on it

  • JustCatsJustCats Member Posts: 298
    edited June 2020

    There are two main reasons.

    1. It erases something the killer actually did with something that took zero effort on the survivor's part. When you get beat by a Dead Hard, you tip the cap. When DS or BT goes off it's just cheese. It's a "lobby outplay" that in many cases mean the survivors get away scot free for doing... nothing.
    2. It punishes the killer for poor survivor decision-making. I understand that these are intended (hopefully) to cut down on camping and tunneling, but the vast majority of times I see them as a killer they're just used as free bullet-proof shields to make unsafe hook saves. More often than not my hooks are literally swarmed with survivors 2 sec after they're up there, whether I'm even still in view or if I've just barely turned a corner. That should be a huge survivor misplay, but these perks make it virtually consequence free.

    It's less that there's no counterplay and more that there's no original play. The game just decides that survivors get free passes to make terrible mistakes and killers either lose chases/hooks/kills despite earning them through gameplay, or they have to go around their elbow to get to their ass to always play around something that takes no input, skill, or strategy from the survivor.

    There are other ways to address camping/tunneling/slugging than these perks, which actually serve to encourage the behavior more than discourage. I'm much more likely to go after the farmed survivor early in a match, for example, to hopefully blow the DS before it matters. I'd rather attack the farming survivor (since with BT it's probably two hits to down either of them), but the game pushes me the other way. The easiest way to deal with aggressive unsafe unhooks? Stay close to the hook, so you can get the first hit on the unhook as the animation starts, giving you the 2nd just as it ends, and trade hooks. Camp, in other words. I'd rather be roaming the map looking to hunt survivors, but 9 times out of 10 I know there's at least one who probably won't even wait until they can't see me to attempt the unhook.

    And why wouldn't they, when the game holds their hand and protects them so efficiently?

    All you'd have to do is replace these protection and take-backsie perks and just make the entity swallow survivors after a (somewhat lengthened, given current gen repair speeds) hook cycle and deposit them, injured but free and alive, at a spawn location of their choice. Survivors can unhook early if they want. Make a disgusting pod shoot up and grab em and transport em through the upside-down or whatever. Remove the idea of a "death hook" and just give each survivor two hooks, and on their last spawn they're permanently "broken" and cannot heal, and let the killer mori as a base mechanic when they're downed for the last time. Three strikes and you're out. No more tunneling, no more camping, no more slugging, and no more annoying survivor "oopsie nevermind" perks.

    If your teammates farm you, it should be on them, not the killer, to shoulder the responsibility for the consequences.

  • MadArtilleryMadArtillery Member Posts: 826

    Game breaking no, but survivors love second chance perks though but also seem to despise noed for being a second chance perk. I just find it ironic.

  • TWiXTTWiXT Member Posts: 1,934

    For me, I personally don't have much against DS, or BT, etc in general, save for one surprisingly common situation that leaves killers with 0 options to secure the kill: The No-win Endgame Scenario.

    Here's the (common) Scenario: Hook a survivor, Last gen pops and gates are powered, Survivor gets unhooked and runs for the gate, Killer downs hooked survivor less than half the map away from the gate... what can he/she do to prevent escape?

    1. Pick them up? Eat the DS for 5 second stun, Survivor t-bags before leaving
    2. Let other survivors heal them while trying to down one of them? Survivor gets up, runs out the gate anyway, teammates also run out the gate as soon as they are struck once.
    3. Try to wait out the DS and pick them up? They typically have roughly 40 seconds of DS left, you can't body block a crawling survivor, and if you are near the gate they'll just crawl out. The Best you can do is pick them up right before they escape and hope the timer for DS ran out.

    The same thing applies to BT, which is commonly paired with DS to absolutely ensure escape for an unhooked survivor. What's worse is that unless you are completely on the other side of the map from the exit gates when you hook the survivor, and if instead you go after the healthy rescuer, both survivors will escape. Hit a healthy survivor that is half the map or less away from the gate = escape, Hit the unhooked survivor while they have BT = escape. The only scenario where you can gain the upper hand during the endgame against perks like these is if you have NOED equipped, or are using an instant down killer/similar instant down tech, Otherwise, they are going to escape, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

    Your best strategy as a killer to avoid this "no-win endgame scenario" is to eat the DS early in the game, but doing that loses you momentum which allows the survivors more time to finish the gens. True it will put a stop the the no-win scenario, but it'll also speed up the endgame dramatically. Other than that, slugging them for a minute, or downing and hooking them after you know DS is no longer active are all you can do.

    I swear, if survivors had "Blessed Objects" scattered around the map like the killers Totems, and like NOED/Hex perks, they allowed DS, BT, Unbreakable, Soul Guard etc, to activate/stay active, killers wouldn't hesitate to seek out and smash every one of them, despite how time consuming doing that may be.

  • FogLurkerFogLurker Member Posts: 337

    The best way for you to understand is probably by doing the opposite, play without them. Don't use Adrenaline, DH, BT, DS, Unbreakable for any matches for a long period of time.

    Then start counting all the times where "If I had (perk), I would have lived/wasted more of the killers time" then think of it like that for 4 survivors and the momentum loss it can cause for the killer or the snowball it can cause in the survivors favor.

    Anyway, that's atleast one way I tried to think of to answer OP's question. Not that I'm against the perks, I play both sides but I enjoy killer more.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,652

    Ds robs the killer of any end game plays

    Bt removes the risk of hook bombing most of the time

    Unbreakable wouldnt be too bad however paired with soul guard or ds it's an extreme game changer and a garunteed extra life no matter what the survivor does, no counter play at that point

  • H3xB0rr0w3dT1m3H3xB0rr0w3dT1m3 Member Posts: 187

    Ds-This perk can change the course of the match depending on the situation. If there are more than 3 gens left, yeah i’ll eat it so they don’t have later but it allows survivors to do what ever they want in the killer face and they know they’ll be up a running no matter what

    Bt-Isn’t really that game breaking, if it’s in the endgame then it can be since from experience that’s the only time people get to actually use the perk

    unbreakable-if you have all 4 survivors slugged but one of them gets off the ground with unbreakable, you basically have to win the game AGAIN as had that survivor not had unbreakable things would’ve gone much differently and the match would’ve ended much sooner

    Dead hard-It has the potential to extend chases by a very long time if used correctly. Most people think it’s to dodge hits but it meant to be used for covering up lost distance. Making to a pallet/window vault is what it’s meant and when this is done correctly can extend chases by very large amounts of time

  • Demonl3yDemonl3y Member Posts: 1,416

    did you know if you time it perfectly, you can stack the boost of SB and Adrenaline?

    But i think adrenaline is fine since you can only use it once a match.

  • its_garrusits_garrus Member Posts: 4

    Quite honestly the hate stems from SWF. Every problem with survivors comes from them...the toxic groups filled with people who rely heavily on these perks throughout the games they play. That’s why you’d commonly see 3 DS’s in one game, coupled with Unbreakable. And if the builds look similar, they’re likely “that” SWF group.

    The only times I would ever have DS and Unbreakable at the same time are when I’m having an extremely bad day with getting slugged off hook just to get picked up about...oh...idk...60 seconds later! Even if I don’t have DS. And teammates could be being a bit selfish and not caring.

    And I don’t whip out Borrowed unless it’s been a lot of hard-patrolling going on. Like legitimately not leaving the hook at 4 gens. But I understand why killers hate it when it’s used at end-game because unless the killer has STBFL they’re not gonna have time to punish the rescuer since the person with BT is gonna be body-blocking (if smart).

    So these perks are good for solo play, but once they tie in with SWF, they become another monster for many people who have the “play to win” attitude.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,806

    It's not so much how game changing they are on their own. It's how game changing they are relative to the use conditions. That's just the nature of survivor gameplay.

    Dead Hard against Nurse can be absolutely devastating and extremely frustrating because a survivor presses E relative to what the Nurse player is doing.

    It's an asymmetrical game, so obviously each role is different from a mechanical perspective. But I feel like a lot of frustration from killer players stems from the fact that survivors get a whole lot of reward from not a lot of input on many of the meta perks.

  • ALostPuppyALostPuppy Member Posts: 3,398
    edited June 2020

    They're not gamebreaking on their own, but when multiple survivors run all those perks at the same time it's usually a GG from the start. The counter to DS is "oh just slug the person" but then they have Unbreakable to counter the slugging, which is countered by not slugging, which is when you'll get hit by DS, usually when you didn't even tunnel that survivor in the first place... The power of the combination of these two perks is absolutely stupid. They're fine on their own, and they can be fun ways to shift the pace of a match, but when you use them together it's uncounterable, and you have to worry about 4 survivors having this invincibility for up to 2 minutes each during the match.

  • sekkimasekkima Member Posts: 194

    DS? Usually used by those who do not know how to play (and it can be easy to hunt it again, but in the endgame it is very op).

    BT?, If you see that he approaches you after being off the hook or does not run, do not hit him, start counting to 15.

    Unbreakable ?, There if it is pure luck.

    There is also the adrenaline trick, when the 5 gens are repaired and you have someone on your shoulders, let go and immediately throw the blow at him. Adrenaline is a very common benefit, this almost always works (this is very satisfying 👀 ).

    I would tell you not to take it seriously, it is a game ... but if you want to reaffirm your authority as a killer you can become main of the spirit/nurse/billy/huntress (killers who don't depend so much on the mistakes of the survs)

  • DBD78DBD78 Member Posts: 2,882

    It's when you play against some very good but toxic SWF teams that they become a real pain in the ass. And as someone say I can hook another guy and still get DSed so 60 seconds is too long.

    That said as solo survivor I use these perks myself and I don't complain when they work to my advantage, but I do understand the killers frustration in some situations. I felt it myself many times playing killer.

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