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Since hatches exist, why NOED is not basekit Killer power?

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  • EnlyneEnlyne Member Posts: 429

    Cool bait.

    No.

  • Azgard12Azgard12 Member Posts: 335

    Maybe change the title of your topic then, as you bring up NOED there. 26 of the posts that follow before I even contribute also discuss NOED. It's the example you've made offered and defended. Again, I do think of NOED as training wheels (as I do of BBQ, Spine Chill and sometimes Self Care), in that these are perks I initially felt I needed to win. Later, I learned a bit more and started changing my builds to pay more attention to pressure and the state of the game.

    That said, let me be one to say I think the game as it is now is Survivor-sided. I don't know that giving killers auto-NOED would change much except survivors would be more encouraged to do totems. Doing these would slow the game down a bit and be an inadvertent nerf to totems as a whole (if the survivors actually did them, barring Hallowed Ground).

    In an earlier post, you mentioned that the EGC was a positive move, and that the hatch wasn't really the problem. Are there any other solutions you can think of? I genuinely wish Killers had a bit more in their corner, but I don't think NOED would do much.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    I kind of agree with NOED part, I did not think much of a counter-advantage so much to show how absurd hatch is and (in my opinion) how it should of have never existed.

    My solution was as I stated, no need for advantage for either side but once third survivor dies, it's EGC time (no hatch at all). I think that's fair, can you think of any fair solutions?

  • Azgard12Azgard12 Member Posts: 335

    It's hard to think of an elegant solution without creating new perks or adding to base kits, admittedly. My goal would be Killers being a bit more scary, especially toward the end of the game. And as I side-note, I also think there need to be more totems in general...

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Because it is off-topic and because it's funny saying that when you rely on unbreakable, DS, self care/inner strength, BT, etc. etc.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,266
    edited August 2020

    Because the killer has an equal chance to find the hatch before the survivor. That is why it is 50/50.

    Ask yourself honestly how many survivors do you actually lose too in this scenario?

    You keep going to it being free escape instead of looking at it what it is. A way to end the game.

    If you really think by saying this shrine idea of killing all survivors compared to one having a possibility of escaping is even remotely is the same or a good comparison I don't know what else to say.

    Killing all 4 survivors should be hard. It's not meant to be the norm and only the best of the best should be able too.

    Think about this. The more a 4k happens the more killers will be nerfed. Think outside the box instead of complaining about a mechanic where both sides have an equal chance.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Well the shrine shouldn't kill all survivors then, just 1?

    EGC triggers when third survivor dies is best way to, well, end the game. The hatch should not exist, it's just a free out-of-jail for survivors.

  • Azgard12Azgard12 Member Posts: 335

    Perky, I'm hearing you man, but if one survivor escaping through the hatch is worth deleting the hatch, realize you did win that game.

    What if there was a perk that allowed the killer to lock the hatch during EGC but before it opens (1 survivor remains)?

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    It's not about winning or losing it's about making the game fair and balanced which makes it more fun, this is what people don't necessary pick when we try to discuss.

    No, we do NOT want 4k all games (would be pretty boring), but we want to be defeated because of mistakes we made or lack of skills, therefor we could actually improve at it. Right now, with all the second chance perks, hatch, and -don't get me start- voice communications among other SWF abuse make the game feel unfair, and punishes you (instead of rewarding you) for taking the time to learn and practice a killer and playing mostly okay.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347
    edited August 2020

    I really couldn't disagree more. NOED is nothing against the BS that we go through as killers, but I think survivors are used to easiness (hump a gen, m1, loop for 90 seconds pop goes a free escape) that they are making a big deal out of NOED.

    It has way too many counters to mention, even perks that require zero skill from the player can be utilized to counter it.


    But let's stay on-topic please.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,266

    There is still the issue of balance. Since it is meant to be on 2 die 2 escape then it skews this and if the kill rates go up then you know that means more nerfs for killer. Your idea is to flip it so killers have a 50/50 chance to kill instantly instead. As always be careful what you wish for.

    Its not a free escape this way of thinking is wrong as its still a 50/50 chance. A free escape would be guaranteed.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    Hatch and NOED both reward playing badly, cancelling each other out. Hatch rewards the survivor for not saving on hook, NOED rewards the killer for letting gens fly. I think, if hatch exists, NOED be basekit when there is only one survivor left. These 2 things cancel each other out.

  • Azgard12Azgard12 Member Posts: 335

    Why do you keep telling people to stay on topic? Every time you've said this, the person posting has been on the topic you determined.

    I do think NOED is stronger than the hatch alone, but hatch + key can be stronger. Also, NOED requires a perk slot, so there's that. Both can be shot down by the opposition.

  • a_good_playera_good_player Member Posts: 194

    oooh what do we have here? a cute angry killer main? UwU i love this

  • DingDongsDingDongs Member Posts: 684
    edited August 2020

    If you think about what would happen if noed actually become a basekit?

    That would give a second objective already and more people would do cleanse more totems (aka please go find ruin hex while i'm busy chasing)


    Anyway hatch exist so last survivor don't have to play hide and seek or something

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    ???

    How does survivors play poorly (one survivor left) and then having a free escape and NOED cancel each other out? Obviously it's in favor for the survivor.

    Hatch should not exist. EGC starts after third survivor died is the most fair solution I can think of.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    I know why hatch exist but it still is a poor design. EGC starting after third survivor dies is more viable solution.

    Besides, two survivors can hold the game hostage and escape for 1+ hours, it happened to me before.

  • APoipleTurtleAPoipleTurtle Member Posts: 1,265

    The Hatch exists as a final hope for the last survivor, who most likely no longer has time to finish gens and will only have time to open a Gate if both spawned sufficiently far apart. It allows a team of inexperienced/newbie survivors to have a second chance when their team almost inevitably gets sacrificed by the killer. It also gives a possible chance of escape for a good survivor who got matched with a bunch of potatoes. It is rarely a free survivor escape (where the killer couldn't do anything about it) without the use of a "tactical disconnect" or a key. It's not like the killer can't already slug to counteract the hatch opening in most situations.

    Hatch was a 50/50 mechanic BEFORE the Hatch-closing mechanics were introduced (hence the infamous "Hatch Standoff"). But, this interaction is actually in the killer's favor now; they search for the hatch significantly faster, closing the hatch is very likely to doom the last survivor, and (in my experience) the game tends to prioritize killer closing the hatch over the survivor jumping in if both players are sitting on it waiting for it to open. And I think it's great that hatch has been rebalanced this way. Killer still gets to feel powerful near the end of these matches, while survivor gets properly placed under even more pressure to find the hatch first. Besides, if the last survivor escapes, you win. If they don't escape, you still win. You are simply determining whether this one survivor can eke out a small "victory" for themselves.

    I think most frustrations with the Hatch boil down to survivors cheesing it with DCs & Keys, or the killer feeling entitled to a free 4k (when they've already won the Trial and still have favorable odds of stopping the 4th person); two issues that I don't see a base-mechanic NOED solving.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    Meg is the second last survivor alive. Meg is in front of the hatch. Meg lets her team mate die on hook. Meg escapes. Meg won?

  • KeeperKeeper Member Posts: 27

    I mean noed is usually used as a surprise boom 1 hitted you and if it was base kit then people would be running map every single game and do totems so you wouldnt get your surprise 1 hit anymore.

    Plus i dont like this idea on certain killers like Spirit Nurse and freddy. they are already annoying to go against in Solo Q.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Again with the hatch (a free out-of-jail ticket for survivors!!!!!!!!!!!!!) is in killer favor BS.

    As for the rest of your post, it's all fine and dandy but how about a second chance for killers who play poorly? It's after all a 1v4 asymmetric gameplay (I read game description on Steam) so balance should be likewise, don't you agree?

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Hatch is bad design. Hatch makes killer slug third survivor. Hatch makes survivors act noobie noobie and selfish. Hatch good?

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Feel free to propose any other second chance advantage for killers, for actual once.

  • DsalterDsalter Member Posts: 239

    tbh NOED becoming baseline would be good an bad, yes instant downs at the last stretch is a pretty desired thing, but that speed buff would allow some really bad RNG gates to be un-openable as survivor, just imagine baseline NOED huntress gets lucky and both gates are on the same side+clear hatchet shots or trapper with close proxy gates, you aint escaping.

    now if they fixed some of the bull gate spawns so they HAVE to spawn somewhat apart (the game and midwhich are pretty good at this), give NOED baseline, remove the speed buff or slightly lower killer speed while someone is slugged or hooked in end game and maybe make it so you can ALWAYS mori the last survivor i could see "NOED" being just as clutchy as hatch yet equally as acceptable since it rewards you for catching that last survivor while helping making fast games have a catch up mechanic which vs really altruistic SWF groups would allow already power housed games to slow down enough so the killer can at least MAYBE if they work alittle to catch someone get a kill in, especially if its a last man mori, nothing more fun that getting a mori on at least one guy in a SWF group.

    then to balance out the hatch a little make it so while 2 or more survivors are still alive its semi transparent and less obvious, if a survivor stays near it for far to long (just like cage camping) it'll move somewhere else unless there's only 1 survivor remaining in which case it becomes solid and opens and its fair game for whoever escapes first.

    now if the killer closes a hatch and theres only one survivor left, gates need to slowly progress on their own to discourage this gate camping crap till the entity steps in, make it progress at maybe 2% per second OR if the only survivor is in the match and gates are still closed the switch no longer shows the progress of the gate and the audio of the gate opening is 50% quieter allowing that last survivor who cant get the hatch a CHANCE at escaping as currently 1v1 unless you get a really slow killer or very BS sized maps, you wont be opening gates alone because if he see's progress, he knows your near and if they spawn close enough to patrol you cannot make progress without dying.


    then maybe rework NOED so for each survivor still alive add 25% more audio to the gates opening and 50% slowdown for gate opening times so the perk can slow down the end game but can be countered by killing the hex, then the hex called no one ESCAPES death can actually more accurately slow peoples ESCAPES rather than people just dying in one hit.


    i will probably get some flack for these ideas but at least debate them before you just say "nah killer buff/nerf or survivor buff/nerf"

  • LeaderoftheSaintsLeaderoftheSaints Member Posts: 162

    The hatch is better than playing hide and seek for the rest of your life. The hatch itself is alright for the most part could use a few changes.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Been discussed, better solutions exist, EGC when third person dies, two survivors can play hide and seek for rest of your life, yaba yaba yaba...

  • LeaderoftheSaintsLeaderoftheSaints Member Posts: 162

    Well how about instead of complaining and whining at everyones post you actually come up with some solutions or ideas on how they could immplent something in the hatches place thats fair for both sides.

  • MyWorldHasComeMyWorldHasCome Member Posts: 146

    Well yes but actually no. You can use the Hatch at your side. Just search the door and don't go for the hatch.

    This is my gamestyle and works in almost every match. Just let him close the hatch and start opening the door until the first light. Wait for him to appear and boom, open it when he leaves (if he hasn't whispers).

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