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Why do killers say using good perks is toxic?

Ohh let me use deja vu. Dark sense. And stand still so the killer can hook me. Don't do gens 'casue it's toxic. Don't blind the killer with flashlight. Don't heal myself.

Why are items are in the game if u cant' use them?

Why can't you play swf without being called toxic? You know there are people who bought the game to play with friends. The other day i got facecamped by an instadown hatchet huntress with a mori but I'm not complaining about it cause,moris are really good offerings and insta down hatchet is a really godd add-on. killer mains can u stop complaining about meta perks? Thank you for your attention.



  • EndersanEndersan Member Posts: 54

    Yeah. And sorry if my post was rude.

    I'm just tired of seeing rants about ds, bt.

  • DamarusDamarus Member Posts: 568
    edited August 2020

    Except that there's truth in there. Playing both roles, I know how much of an annoying, unbalanced thing SWF is (never been in a full SWF team, though). But, having the killer chasing you forever, downing you because he got Bloodlust, then possibly facecamping you because you made him mad by wasting so much of his time (which he could have used by hunting somebody else) is not fun, either. While playing survivor, I want to do everything I can to earn some points. I want to cleanse totems, I want to open chests, I want to work on gens, heal AND get chased. Not ONLY get chased, until I die because I turned 95. And I don't want to go down with a single basic attack either, because the killer had the perk that those who know will not be able to stop gens bring (NoeD). As a solo survivor, I almost always cleanse 3 to 4 totems, sometimes even 5 all on my own. But I can't go looking for totems on the entire map all on my own, in every single match. Until solos have a way of telling how many totems are still present in the map yes, NoeD is actually a crutch. And I think the same about DS and DH, some easy stuff that everybody uses. The difference is that, with like 95% of the killers I've met relentlessly chasing the same guy, then tunneling and camping him (and, before you say anything, this applies to both console and PC), DS becomes close to being "mandatory". When killers' behaviour will change, decent survivors' behaviour and perks might change as well. But until then, nobody likes being chased for the entirety of the game.

    EDIT: And please, be rational about what you say, and don't give me the same recycled answer "the killer's job is to kill, he doesn't have to care about your fun. As much as survivors don't have to care about the killer's fun blah blah blah". If people start to get tired of the game and its community, what do you think will happen? I don't think that hitting air gives any bloodpoints, does it? As much as kicking gens with no progress is not going to regress them.

  • EndersanEndersan Member Posts: 54

    My only problem is that everytime they see someone using ds they make a post about it. I never make anypost about tunneling,camping killers. So why can't they do the same? And if they don't tunnel=no ds no bt.

    They just have to change the way they play so we won't use ds and bt. In the current state ds and bt is necessary.

  • xEaxEa Member Posts: 2,972

    Killer who complain about perks are usually bad, just ignore them.

  • FlatskullFlatskull Member Posts: 332

    Because SWF bust the game and has always done so. No one likes playing against them. This is universal. Go play in your own lobby in kyf if it's really about playing with your pals and leave the solo's alone.

    No one complains about healing yourself, using flash lights or doing gens. You're full of it.

    Killers complain mostly about DS because of the locker plays or the unbreakable plus ds combo that basically creates a can't pick them up and can't leave them scenario. I personlaly have nothing against DS.

    Instant hatchete huntress is widely condemned by the killer community openly as broken. They've been complaining about her Iri head being silly with the infantry belt combo for ages and she needs an add on update.

    Maybe actually look around the forum before you complain about what other people opinions are.

  • XzanXzan Member Posts: 908

    DS and BT enable you to make risky plays without consequences.

  • SoylentPixieSoylentPixie Member Posts: 1,078

    At the end of the day play how you like and ignore all the whining. Because all through my time here on the forums i have seen people complain about every aspect of what the other side uses, then these same people announce "Play how you like, its not your job to make things fun for the other side" when discussing their own side.

    It's all double standards and backpedaling and at the end of the day, the only people who can disallow a game mechanic, is the devs.

  • Caz2018Caz2018 Member Posts: 193

    You can use whatever perk or item you want to use, no matter what anyone says. Killers don't like certain ones, such as the torches, or keys, decisive strike or dead hard. Survivors hate NOED, being moried or having nurses calling. It's about learning what works for you so ignore all the comments saying 'use this, don't use that' and try them out for yourself.

    At the end of the day, the killer is supposed to try and sacrifice the survivors, the survivors are expected to do what they can to survive; it's going to cause conflict due to people's perception of good and bad perks, which leads to perceived or actual toxic behaviour.

  • ZozzyZozzy Member Posts: 4,488

    I guess because the current meta perks can literally change the outcome of the match.

    SWF on coms is a little to strong and is being ignored by the dev's for unknown reasons

    They promised to make solo players stronger and all we got was kindred ignoring the fact SWF don't need to waste perk slots for this information, and are nerfing killers instead when they shouldn't be.

    Gen speed needs to be looked at but they won't thanks to solo groups that they refuse to buff.

    It all wraps up into a nice little ball of frustration and anger that turns to toxicity in time.

    On the survivors side camping sucks, hag can be deleted from the game and i wouldn't shed a tear, spirit needs to make a sound when she phases so she can't just stand there leaving you clueless and yeah, that's about it.

  • oxygenoxygen Member Posts: 2,746

    People in general do this way too much, and it doesn't matter who they are: they're scrubs that can't seperate their dislike of stuff in the game from people using said stuff.

    "I think <thing> is lame/too strong" is fine, "<thing> is lame and you suck if you use it" is worthless scrub whining.

  • ZtarShotZtarShot Member Posts: 833

    I agree like using JUST decisive strike or JUST adrenaline or JUST unbreakable is fine, but the second you combo them is the problem. It's not fun for the other side in any way to run absolute crutch or excessively strong perks to win.

    And no one can convince me dead hard is crutch

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,815

    It depends on what perks you use and how you use them. I'm sorry, but if you slap on DS/UB then you are genuinely toxic, because you are exploiting a well-known combo that gives you effective immortality for an entire minute after being unhooked. I have yet to see any equivalent that killers can run that is that level of obnoxious.

  • DamarusDamarus Member Posts: 568
    edited August 2020

    I guess that games need to be a bit longer, for that to happen. If that is to happen, there will still be cheap players, playing exactly like they do now, on both sides. Though I hope things can change. But yes, killers generally cry about stuff their "playstyle causes". The toxicity that was brought into this game with crossplay made me use DS for the first time since year 1. I always refused to use stuff like DS and NoeD. But, as I said, killers are making it a necessary evil. Not to mention the spamfest that being against a Billy/Clown/Freddy/PH/Doc actually means.

  • RakimSockemRakimSockem Member Posts: 1,692

    Ummmm I need you to do just like a page or 2 of scrolling and you will find:

    1. Someone complaining about Desperate Measures (the new survivor healing perk)
    2. Someone complaining about gens, being "genrushed" (aka survivors focusing their objective)
    3. Flashlight complaints are rare now but they happened before and if you stick around long enough, you'll probably see them again,

    Doesn't matter WHY killers are complaining about DS. So what if they jump in a locker? Grab them and eat it. Who cares if they purposely run at you. That's a sign that they want to be hit and picked up. Slug them. If they hop on a gen and you find them, either slug them or eat the DS.

    I've played 4 killer games this morning so far. Someone had DS in every game and I never got hit with it. Do you know why? I target different people intentionally and I'm not trash

  • NekoGamerXNekoGamerX Member Posts: 4,403

    I toxic people find perk toxic how they used like ds after be hooked the almost always go looking for the killer to get DS off don't get me started on head on that pperk is worse then ds.

  • ChatkovskiChatkovski Member Posts: 309

    Toxicity is a matter of behavior. Which is very funny and ironic to say here.

    No perk is toxic. No survivors, killers, items, addons, or offerings are toxic. You may disagree, think it's too strong... But you can't say it's toxic. These are mechanics very clearly instituted by the game.

    Where I can consider a notion of toxicity is in behavior. Things that are happening, but not really planned or requested. A killer adept at camping or tunneling. A survivor adept at 360, t-bag or harassment with a flashlight...

    If, in my opinion, there are certain things that have a real and much more significant impact on the game, all of this can be studied in terms of toxicity.

  • DamarusDamarus Member Posts: 568

    @Endersan @Technician19XX Anyway, I'm going to stray off-topic here, but I'd like to discuss balancement issues with the guys in here. I would normally open a new discussion, but I've been there, done that, and people in this forum tend to only criticize things that would be unfavorable for their "faction", without even giving proper examples or explaining why it would be a bad thing. And that is because, normally, there is nothing taken into account, other than their own satisfaction. Take your time though, because it's going to be a long ride. I'll split the points into survivors and killers, to give a better reading experience. Would like to hear some thoughts, especially from the two guys I mentioned, since they are among the few I met on these forums who have proven to actually use some rational thought and constructive criticism.


    • Decisive Strike and Dead Hard should go, or they should be reworked so that DS is deactivated if you start working on gens or get fully healed (maybe one OR the other), and DH does not go off cooldown instantly while hooked, maybe even adding other 20 secs of Exhaustion. If it stays, it should also become somewhat more consistent, because I keep being hit mid animation since crossplay came out, while still becoming Exhausted. 

    • Hits through windows and on the other side of pallets should not happen, if the survivor is already running, which means he completed the animation and was out of the killer's reach. I even had players hit me on the other end of the pallet, which was already used, all while they got stunned and teleported on the side I was, but even further than where I was standing.

    • Flashlights, keys and toolboxes should be limited to one per match. This means that, of the 4 survivors in the match, only one can bring a key, only one can bring a toolbox and only one can bring a flashlight. Items in chests would still remain as normal, same for medkits. 

    • Survivors should be shown how many totems are still up on the map, possibly by placing a candle shrine in the basement, as someone already suggested. This could also lead to killers taking them by surprise and hooking them in the basement.

    • Gen rushing should be reduced by implementing something like parts to find, perhaps only for the last 2 gens. Somebody already proposed that, though he suggested to do that for all gens.

    • If the killer is anywhere near a certain radius of the hooked survivor, unless there are other survivors really close, the hooked survivor should not lose any health until the killer goes away. That radius means that he should not be so close as to be instantly ready to hit another survivor who comes in to unhook. The radius would be distance based, not terror radius based. Boom, got rid of camping (not a "strategy", since a strategy involves reasoning and planning). Of course, this would not apply to EGC.

    • This isn't really survivor only or killer only, but some maps, like Yamaoka Estate, have horrible and very few pallets. Those maps should receive some more of them, while still acting like what I described in the first killer point.

    • Exit gates should be farther from each other, so that survivors have at least a slight chance at escaping, if the hatch is closed and they are left on their own. Not really sure if that is something possible, but I'd like a system that keeps track of points earned. If you are the last survivor and did not, at least, complete a gen and a safe unhook, the hatch will not spawn for you. And I said spawn, so keys would not help. If it already spawned and you didn't do both of those things, it disappears. If you are quick enough to go for it with a key before the other survivor dies, though, you get to escape. Can't prevent everything, can we? Oh, and keys in the hands of a survivor who dies on the hook would vanish from the trial.


    • So, first things first, I feel like there should be no Bloodlust for killers. The presence of BL alone favors endless chases, which is what I also call tunneling (coupled with ending a chase to start another with an injured guy who was just unhooked). As we all know, infinite loops have been finally removed from the game, a while ago, which was mainly the reason for BL to exist. The removal of BL should also lead to less pallets, while still having no more than a single pallet in almost every area of the map, so there are no dead zones. But no areas with double pallets. This would mean, for instance, that there should be no areas like The Game's basement (but there, you have the basement, so those pallets should stay, to prevent tunneling at least a little). Maybe even show auras of pallets to other survivors the moment they get dropped, to give them some info SWF already has (I would also be into removing SWF altogether or limiting the party size to 2 people).

    • NoeD should get no move speed bonus and, as somebody else suggested, only activate on the condition that no more than 3 survivors have been hooked (if the survivor was the same one all 3 of those times, the same applies).

    • On the killer side, you can only use Ebony Mori if the survivor is on the LAST hook, if he has been hooked twice before that. If he got to second phase on his first hook, you will have to hook him. If he gets downed after the first hook, you cannot mori him. The same would apply to Pyramid Head's Final Judgement. Also, PH should not be able to have Moris, since he has one built into his kit. Moris different from the Ebony would retain their features.

    • Spirit would have to be reworked in a way that does not make her "unfair" for survivors. She can be countered, not going to deny that, though it is mainly based on luck, guesswork and meta perks like Iron Will. Every killer should have a way to counter their power even without perks. I'm ok with her retaining her map pressure though. Maybe give her a much longer cooldown, if she is to remain like she is now.

    • Instadowns need to go, or be reworked in some way, depending on the killer, so that they cannot be abused (unless they come from perks, like Haunted Grounds or Devour Hope). Huntress would lose Iridescent Head. Billy would have to wait 1:30 (duration is debatable) minutes between a succesful Chainsaw slash and another, while still retaining the newly introduced overheat mechanic. Same for Leatherface, who should have 2 charges instead of 3 and a cooldown of 40 seconds (also on successful chainsaw hit), to make up for the fact that he does not have as much map pressure as Billy. Myers should have the EW III effect active for 40 secs instead of a full minute, and the Iridescent add-on Fragrant Tuft of Hair should make it last longer, not forever (like 1 min and 20 secs). Ghostface can remain as is, maybe get some form of increased lunge. Oni is also ok as he is. While is not an instadown, Freddy should see his power charges reduced to 6/8 for Dream Snares and 4 for Dream Pallets, so he should be some more strategic and not spam pallets everywhere.
    • In general

    If we are to keep crossplay between all platforms other than mobile, console should be brought on par with PC, as far as frames go. Especially considering the fact that the upcoming graphical update could make the situation even worse. Guess that's all, for the moment. Hope nobody sees me as being too killer-sided or survivor-sided, since I had enough points for both roles. Though I reckon that is going to be a huge gamble, knowing this community.

  • bjorksnasbjorksnas Member Posts: 4,233

    Why do killers dislike survivors getting 4 extra second chances when the main way to down a survivor is to have them make a mistake or mindgame them into making mistakes

  • AvisDeeneAvisDeene Member Posts: 2,396

    I am being rational when I say this, the Killers job is to kill Survivors. When you queue up solo you do so taking a risk that you will be paired with Potatoes. It isn’t the Killers fault that you’re the only one that may do totems and your teammates refuse to. NoEd isn’t over powered because it gives the Killer and extra boost in power, it’s strong because Survivors get tunnel vision and ignore the secondary objective.

    No player is entitled to have their opponent play as they want to. As long as the rules of the game aren’t being broken, there is nothing wrong with being chased the whole match. Isn’t that what most Survivors on the forums want? How many times have I seen it posted by people that the chase is the most fun part of the game? Let’s say you got chased for three gens, wouldn’t you say that you had fun and we’re able to contribute to the team? Why should the Killer be lenient with you while you’re on hook? It’s their right to face camp you since they put up with chasing you for that long. It’s just a consequence of playing Survivor.

    The only way to make Killers give up the strategies Survivors don’t like is to remove some of the stress from their shoulders. As things stand now, gens go way too fast. Saying just pressure them doesn’t work. There is no way a Killer will be able to hook 4 people 3 times each before the 5th gen pops when they face a competent group of Survivors unless they play one of the top 3/4 Killers unless they use tactics you don’t like.

    It’s funny how you blame Killers for making the game not fun but not mention how unfun Survivors make the match for Killers. Do you really think Killers have fun when they repeatedly get locked stunned? Or how about pallet stunned and blinded? Or how about getting blinded with a Survivor on their shoulder, losing the Survivor and all the time they spent to down them? Do you think Killers love it when after they chase someone and are walking to the hook, that the hook disappears because someone has a tool box? Do you think it’s fun for Killers to get body blocked over and over?

    You probably think that’s all fine and dandy because it’s just Survivors completing their objectives. Well the same applies for Killers. You are not entitled to search chests, heal, work on gens or help your team. Their goal is to make the match as difficult as possible, hopefully leading to your teams death. The only thing you’re entitled to is a “chance” at Survival.

    Don’t ask Killers to go out of their way to make the game enjoyable for you unless you’re willing to ask Survivors to do the same for Killers. So the next time you think to save someone by using a flashlight, consider how the Killer might get upset and make the game easier for them by not blinding them. Oh, you won’t, because you want your points, well then, don’t expect the Killer to do the same for you.

    And if the game dies, so be it. It’s up to the Devs to provide an enjoyable experience for their community, not the players.

  • AvisDeeneAvisDeene Member Posts: 2,396

    You’re fine, it’s just nice to vent sometimes. If you haven’t already, I recommend that you try playing Killer to understand the frustrations they put up with as well. It really would open up your perspective.

    Just be prepared for a lot of frustration when you do.

  • handfulofrainhandfulofrain Member Posts: 317

    Same reason survivors complain about slugging, "tunneling", NOED, etc.

  • RizeAkiRizeAki Member Posts: 1,209

    All comes down to entitlement on both sides as survivors constantly complain about killers , their perks, Noed, slugging, camping, tunneling, and mori

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460
    edited August 2020

    I'm a Killer and I don't say that. I think the word toxic is worthless and has no meaning. I don't care what you use. Killers are going to do their best to kill as many survivors as possible, and Survivors are trying to survive by any means necessary. As long as no one is hacking, more power to you. While there are some whining/winging Killers, they are (in general) vastly outnumbered by the endless complaints of Survivors. I don't like hearing it from either side.

    The endless complaining creates a thick blankets of fog which obscures real issues, and makes it impossible to talk about anything. The word "toxic" for example seems to be whatever a particular whiner wants to complain about on a given day. I've been accused of camping merely for being on the same side of the map as a hook. Was I camping? No, of course not.

    That isn't to say I won't. I will camp, tunnel, or Mori to win the game. Sometimes those strategies work, sometimes not. Every game is unique. I'm still relatively new and learning. I try not to spend a lot of time worrying about which Perk is too strong or too weak. The DEV get paid for that; I don't. I'm just here to play the game. I am concerned with "out of game" things like the 5th Perk (Comms) for SWF. I think that makes things very difficult to balance properly, and will get addressed eventually one way or another.

    But again, I'm not here to tell other people how to design the game; I go to play it.

  • EndersanEndersan Member Posts: 54

    We use ds and bt cause killers are tunneling. Even tough i don't use ds and bt others do.

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