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DS isn't even a Top 5 Survivor Perk
RakimSockem
Member Posts: 1,251
I'll address the DS + Unbreakable towards the end of the thread because I know that's what all the angry people are going to come in here ready to yell about.
edit: tl'dr I can think of multiple perks that I gain a lot from and I control when I use them versus a perk that depends on the killer tunneling me. (I know some people don't read long posts)
I'm starting by addressing the perk itself. We all know what it does because there's endless threads about it. From the time you're unhooked, if the killer picks you up again within 60 seconds, you get a chance to hit a skill check and stun the killer. Cool.
There are many perks I would and DO run over that for a number of reasons. DS depends on the playstyle of the killer and only works if they choose to tunnel you instead of going after the 3 other people on the map. And I don't want to hear about "Well, they're just trying to be efficient and tunneling is a good strategy" because I'm not arguing against that. They're fine strategies (despite being boring for the survivor), but I'm just stating facts. I play killer and I know exactly who was just pulled off a hook recently, how many times each person has been hooked, who is on death hook, who I've never seen. Every killer knows that so when someone chooses to go after the same person again, they know what they're doing and we're just going to call it what it is.
Now that being said, here's perks that are better (imo) that DS because YOU control when you use them.
Borrowed Time - BT has its own set of weaknesses but it can get people out of a LOT of bad situations if you play it correctly. You control when it gets used, not the killer.
Kindred - Damn near indispensable in solo Q. Anytime someone gets hooked, you have knowledge of where your team is and what they are doing, and possibly where the killer is located based on hook is running. If you are on the hook, your team gets that knowledge
We'll Make It - Quick heals off of the hook. Both players are back to what they need to do in what... 8 seconds? Idk the exact time but I know it's short.
Inner Strength - Encourages players to take care of totems which helps prevent NOED and works as a pocket save
For the People - A pretty good anti tunnel perk when you pull someone off a hook and instantly use it. The killer either has to make the choice of commiting to the tunnel which would take 2 hits and possibly a long chase, or going after a fresh target. And most people don't expect it so they usually commit to who freshly unhooked person expecting an easy kill.
Saboteur - Map wide hook knowledge, lets you see where hook deadzones are so you can make sabo plays. My SWF friends consistently see me pull these off at least once or twice every game.
Lithe - If window hitboxes ever get fixed, this allows for a pretty good extended chase that a killer might not be expecting and can extend loops
Hell as much as I think it's trash, I might even run Dead Hard for the same reason as Lithe. Only reason I don't use it is because it fails more often than it works
Comments
As someone who's been playing a lot of Killer lately, I approve of any attempt to get people to run garbage like Saboteur instead of perks that can turn games around like DS.
Oh sorry, I forgot to address DS + Unbreakable
Sure these two perks have great synergy, but only against people who intend to tunnel and/or slug.
When I play killer, I don't so these 2 perks hardly ever get used with a few exceptions of matches where I was trying to complete a challenge and didn't want the last person to get hatch.
If you go after the other 3 people in the match, they don't get to use either perk and that's 2 slots wasted.
ds unbreakable when run by all players gives 4 minutes of invincibilty scattered throughout the team which is enought time to do every gen on the map, how do you not see that this is a huge problem?
I hook survivor A. I go look for someone else. I find survivor B, chase them and hook them. When I leave survivor B, I may find survivor A again or I can go after survivors C and D.
I repeat this cycle until the match ends.
against good teams your gonna get survivor that stick near you with ds active so that you can either waste time chasing them or slug them just for no one to pick them up and they use unbreakable if you ignore them you throw the game as they sit on a gen right infront of you and your forced to leave either way your forced to waste time in chase that wont benefit you or throw the game.
against good teams you cant get 12 hook games unless your spirit or nurse
I'm copy pasting this from another thread as it's similar to your topic and I'm tired of having to respond to these same things over and over.
The post is in regards to all the second chance perks but this includes DS for your purposes as well.
Whether they actually activate or not regardless, they are still the strongest perks in the game. This is because they force the killer to play in a way that loses him the game against good survivors. It's a lose/lose scenario.
You play the way that doesn't activate any of them, essentially making you play 1 hooking each survivor one at a time taking turns which is simply non viable entirely against good survivors.
OR
You eat the DS, the Unbreakable, the BT etc and lose because you wasted time in a chase that gained you nothing while the other survivors are pumping out gens.
Against good survivors you have to do some variation of either tunneling, soft camping, or slugging if you want to win and aren't on one of the top tier killers, that's just facts. Of which all the second chance perks force the killer to do none.
On top of...he has to play around the possibility you are running all these perks...even if you aren't running them. So just the fact of these perks simply existing is giving the survivors tons of value whether they actually have them for not.
If the killer played completely "fair", none of these perks activated and the survivor team still lost, they were bad or just played terribly that game.
Anyone who doesn't think DS is in the top 5 survivors perks doesn't play both sides at rank 1 with a decent amount of hours. It is by far one of the best perks in the game (if not the best, debatable) and that's agreed upon by almost all the high rank community that actually plays both sides. Almost none of those perks you mentioned are even remotely as good, with BT only coming close behind DS.
Idk people keep running with that argument that you have to feed into what the survivor is planning. If a survivor is following me and I know they were just unhooked, I still go after my target and hook them first. Then I give the other survivor my attention and I'll either eat their DS so that it's gone, or I'll slug them and go after person C or D and make them waste their unbreakable.
I absolutely love when survivors who are injured stick close to me. I hope that's not your definition of a good team because I consistently get 3ks and 4ks against people like that.
And before you asked, yes I've played in red ranks before and have reached rank 1.
If they have 4 minutes of invicibility you are tunneling and campiing HARD
And I should just copy and paste my response to the other guy because I'm tired of this same argument to. No, the killer is not FORCED to respect any perk. I play killer and have played killer in red ranks all the way up to rank 1. I don't have to tunnel to win. Getting a 3k isn't even hard against the majority of teams. Killers who can't disperse pressure and bounce back and forth between survivors just aren't that good, bottom line.
I play primarily Huntress, Myers, Wraith and Doctor and do fine with all of them. This idea that you HAVE to play a certain way because DS and Unbreakable exist is ridiculous and simply untrue. If it were true and I had to, I would never have reached rank 1. It's a choice, not a requirement to play around DS and Unbreakable
While yes are right
but why run sabbo if it get you injured or down
bt can be waited out sometimes
Kindred is meaningless is swf its fair for solo
Well make it is ok
For the people hurts you and ends your chase faster
Innerstrength is fine
why run lithe if you could run deadhard or sprint burst sometimes you cant make it to a window or pallet
Ds gives you 180s of basically invincibility and extends a chase of a minimal of 20s with nothing at all giveing all surivor to do gens
THIS, Also I'm tired of people claiming DS is invincibility, clearly not understanding what the word means. Invincibility would be if you went to swing at the survivor and the entity formed a shield around them to prevent them from taking damage.
"No, the killer is not FORCED to respect any perk."
Respect the perks, lose. Don't respect the perks, lose.
You lose all your pressure for respecting and you lose all your pressure for eating a DS, BT, Unbreakable etc.
"This idea that you HAVE to play a certain way because DS and Unbreakable exist is ridiculous and simply untrue."
Against GOOD survivors, it is fact.
There are a lot of potatoes at high rank that cover the issues and where what I've said do not apply. I am not talking about most games, I am talking about against actually good survivors. Those are two very different things and you're conflating them as the same.
"If it were true and I had to, I would never have reached rank 1"
Refer above ^ Most are potatoes, that isn't what I'm referring to.
"It's a choice, not a requirement to play around DS and Unbreakable"
It's a lose/lose scenario so saying it's a choice is being completely disingenuous.
Tell any person that plays both sides at rank 1 with a good amount of hours that you think those are the top tier perks for survivors in the game and they would laugh. I mean honestly, you seriously put Saboteur in that list...not only is it not in the top tier but it's literally trash/a meme.
There's a reason almost none of those outside of BT are the meta in top tier game play.
You sabo when it's safe to do so and again, it gives you pretty good hook knowledge around the whole map.
I agree Kindred is pointless in a SWF which is why I only mentioned it in terms of solo Q. A perk should be strong on it's own, not because you're on a team and Kindred is strong on it's own.
For the People definitely has a huge down side, I'll give you that. It's a perk you should only run if you're good at looping. But my point was it prevents or at least discourages tunneling and it's instant. You combine it with Inner Strength and you have yourself a pocket heal for when the broken status timer is over.
I prefer Lithe over both Dead Hard and Sprint Burst as far as exhaustion perks are concerned, but all of them are probably better than DS.
DS is only for 60 seconds because it can only be used once a match, not after every hook. Also after the 3rd hook, you'd be dead anyway XD
I would personally say DS is a top 5 perk. Especially if you use it to delay a chase or unhook. Ultimately saving time and removing some of the killers pressure.
I'll name a few situations:
1) 2 hooks at once:
You hook 2 people, person A and person B. A gets unhooked and hookbombs B so you down A. B runs away. Now you're stuck with someone on the floor and you have to wait 40 seconds to pick them back up.
You cannot leave him on the ground as if you try to find another person as:
While all of this is happening 2 people are free on gens.
You're best bet to progress the game is to wait out person A's DS. That just isn't fair or fun. It provides too much of a safety net in situations like that.
2) Tanking hits:
This one is pretty simple, the person with DS tanks a hit for a person in chase giving the person being chased lots of distance and - of course - the killer cant pick up the DS.
Refer back to point 1 on why you cant leave him on the ground.
3) Endgame:
Person is unhooked in endgame, and he gets a free escape.
That's it. It's completely broken in endgame.
-
On top of all this soul guard + unbreakable removes any pressure you might of gotten from playing around DS.
-
DS is just busted, my way of making it better would be making the timer 30 seconds, but make it go down 2x slower in chase.
You have to slug, tunnel or camp against good squads.
Ask any tournament host, player, team etc. They'll all say you'll have to do at least one of them.
Rank 1 survivors don't mean good survivors.
I personally don't like to use DS either. However, you can't deny that DS is one of the most powerful perks at higher tier game-play.
60 seconds is a long time to be immune to being hooked again, a killer can potentially hook two survivors in that time. When you're constantly hooking different survivors, it's quite easy to lose track of when a survivor was unhooked last. When all the survivors look the same, it further increases the difficulty to keep track of who you hooked and when.
Also a single survivor can finish a generator in 80 seconds. A survivor could get unhooked with DS, and jump on a generator and if that survivor has unbreakable, there's not much the killer can do to stop that survivor from finishing that generator.
Taking a DS stun at higher tier game-play can potentially cost the killer the game. As playing against a good team, the killer is often one mistake from losing the game. When I play killer I can often pinpoint the mistake that cost me the game.
You may play killer, but there's a difference between playing killer casually and playing killer at red ranks (even then you'll often go against a weak team).
I want to comment that personally I use "For the People" to instant runby pickup someone in a dying state. Using it against an injured person seems like a waste unless I know for a fact the killer would hit them and not me.
Killer make good combo because his is good
Survival do a good combo SmAlL Pp BuIlD
Tbh it's so tiring to see people saying it gives you InVincIBiliITy, as if you cannot get downed even if you're hit or something.
Just make people use it early it's not that complicated.
DS and Unbreakable are quite uncommon at mid ranks I find. Most if not all use self care, adrenaline, sprint boost and dead hard.
Speaking for myself, I use DS because being tunneled is the one thing I hate running into as Survivor. Way I look at it, if the Killer isn't a tunneler, then the worst that happens is I'm at least one perk down for the game, and I'm okay with that. Worst case, the Killer is a tunneler and I can make them pay for it in some small way. For the same reason I run Borrowed Time, and sometimes even Babysitter, to give anyone I rescue the best chance possible.
So first of, DS is top 3. Anyone who plays the game knows that. It also IS invincibility but im not even sure i want to explain why and how since maybe you people just really havent figured out it's true value and i don't want to be the one to tell you lol
Second of all though I think back to the Ruin nerf which didn't happen because it was OP, it happened because it was so widely used and unfun to play against. Just food for thought since im assuming "Don't nerf DS" is the point of most people defending it.
Lastly
She's right, tunnel. Ds actually makes tunneling more effective because if you don't tunnel them they can become invincible. once the doors are open. It gives everyone an extra life and chase meaning gens can be rushed more effectively but if its a 4man SWF this is really your only option for counterplay since they probably all have it. And about it not being top 5, sweaty 4man SWF don't run non meta perks lol. Again if you play with the perk you should understand its value, value that no other perk can offer you
So basically from what I got skimming through this... DS isn't a Top 5 Survivor perk... not based on statistics or any factual supporting evidence.. But because YOU consider other perks to be better than DS? I thought you were going to whip out like a chart or something displaying the amount of Survivors you played with/against using DS with X number of matches you participated in to show that it's a hardly used perk.
No. DS is a highly used Meta perk. I myself don't use it, because I run other Metas like Bond / SC / IW / and an optional 4th perk like PTS or something. *Granted, ever since crossplay came out, I noticed console players don't use DS AS much. But I can't tell if it's because I'm playing with more low levels than usual as well since I'm Rank 1.
I personally don't use DS. Many killers at higher ranks are too scared to try picking you up if they know they hooked you recently anyway. Feels like a wasted perk slot for me personally, especially since I'm somewhat inconsistent at actually hitting the skill check.
No Killer is scared once they see that no one is the obsession. Typically the ones I meet, the minute they see there's no obsession, they have no problem picking you up immediately after your first hook to get you on your second/last.
It isn't top 5 because its power is immeasurable.
"You won't get hit by it if you don't tunnel"
"Get rid of it early"
Hmm, Jim, how would I get rid of it early? What method might I employ to make sure a DS is baited out early game? So I need to tunnel to purposely get hit by it and lose a ton of pressure because that's preferable to having it active in the end-game where it's literally a free escape.
Seems legit.
you left out calm spirit hope iron will selfcare and tec sure SC got a time nurf bit it helps in solo to look after yourself i alway run that calm and iron in my build tec because it takes 8m off a gen meaning you can stealth do a gen with the killer in a nearby chase calm is gonna be used more as it not only counters the docs power to a degree but all screaming no more IF oni slams the new killers perk for the gens anything that makes you scream is counterd meaning you got stealth combine with iron and you can loop or escape a chase even protect a wounded teamate
I would bet my right arm that no perk on either side comes close to the frequency of use of BBQ. The aura read while seems minuscule to most people is huge amount of information for killers. Map awareness is key to guaranteeing a victory. Killer mains have no grounds to discuss why survivors pick the perks they do when they are stuck in a rut picking the same perks every match.