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Spirit is a guessing game

ErkErk Member Posts: 230
edited August 2020 in General Discussions

There are 2 types of games : Luck-based and skill-based (of course mostly ever game has both but one is more heavy then the other). In luck-based games you sometimes say "Well, I was unlucky, that's why I lost." Hearthstone, for instance but in skill-based games you lose because you are bad. Git gud etc. So, what happens when you combine both ? If you ever played TF2 and encountered "random crits", you would know.

When I play against Spirit and I win in a chase, I never say "Yay ! I was the better player !", it's always "welp, I was lucky". Since Spirit can stand at a pallet and wait until the end of time, you never know if she is phasing or not. You can guess if she is phasing. So for the sake of the scenario, let's say she is not. If you guess that she DID and you slow vault the pallet, you get hit. If you didn't, congratulations ! You won with luck ! This is not fun people.

I heard the argument that "Spirit and Nurse are the only killers that can counter a tournament team !" I won against a tournament team as Clown with 2 reload addons. Now, they are too powerful, I agree about that but that doesn't mean that a killer can be busted AF just so it can counter a team. Spirit AND those teams should be nerfed.

I also heard the argument "She is only good at 1v1s !" No she is not ! She is especially good at 1v1s but she has a lot of mobility too. With tracking perks, she is counterable, yes, but with luck ! If you are not lucky, you die.

For the record, I don't think Nurse is an OK killer. Just like Spirit, if she is in the right hands there is little to no counterplay. Her power is incredibly strong but at least she requires an ungodly amount of skill to play. If she didn't, she would be "More powerful and stronger Spirit".

So, what could be done ? Add a phasing animation so that she stays still but you know that she is phasing. This would open up mindgames where you can actually do something. Oh, by the way, Stridor is way too powerful on her. It's not like "STBFL and Demo's shred" since that is combo, this is busted AF. Do something about the perk or about the killer in that.

TL;DR : Spirit is lottery, you win based on luck. That is stupid.

Edit : Read the goddamn post, people. I see some many people commenting about "all killers having luck", literally read the first sentence in brackets. Spirit has way more luck than every killer and I said this a million times, in the post like I am doing right now AND in the comments ! Read before you speak.

Post edited by Erk on
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Comments

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,923

    I hate when people say guessing what other people are doing is “random”. People aren’t dice, they’re predictable. There’s a reason professional poker tournaments for instance feature the same players, they not only understand the math of poker but also how to gauge what their opponents are thinking. There’s even championships for Rock, Paper, Scissors which on the surface sounds as random as you can get and yet the best players win more often than lose because they have an innate understanding of human psychology in the game.

    While it’s true you can’t be 100% sure of what someone is going to do you can make educated guesses that are more likely to be true than a simple coin toss and also can condition your opponent to act a certain way based on prior behavior in a match.

  • ErkErk Member Posts: 230

    Wow man, you guys are very original too ! I saw a post about Spirit not being OP, that's why I made this. I don't do this daily lol

  • ErkErk Member Posts: 230

    Guessing is just bad. It takes all the skill out of the game. So, you play Spirit because she is easier then other killers ? Besides, Wraith, Pig or Legion don't have guessing. Pig has guessing if a survivor is camping an unsafe pallet, which is just stupid. Wraith sneaks up on people, what is the guessing here ? You can literally see him ! Legion ? How ? S/he literally runs at you !

    I know why she is used so much. I just told you in this post. She has guessing. No other killer has it (like I said, there is guessing in every game and every killer but one part has to be heavier, DbD is a game about skill while Spirit is a killer about guessing !). If you literally cannot mindgame to counter a looping survivor, you probably need to play more killer and, as much as I hate saying this, get good.

    You are not "spoonfeeding" them counterplay. The game has to do that and the game failed the second Spirit came out ! But by playing Spirit, you are hurting yourself and other players. You are not learning how to counter survivors who loop good and you are making their life miserable by playing Spirit in the first place !

    Looping is fine but perks that extend loops at little cost (such as Dead Hard) need to be looked at.

    Please, tell me how to understand if a Spirit isn't phasing or not. This is a literal coin toss. In the games you told, people are face to face, this makes guessing way easier if you understand expression language. Yes, you can't be %100 sure about what someone is going to do and yes, you can do educated guesses but by the time you understood the killer, its too late. Either all the gens are done or the other 3 survivors are dead.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,652

    This is false, it's not out of your control as you can still influence the outcome of a phase..I do it..true does it on the daily, and spirit still loses against teams good enough to face her..honestly..this is why I'm waiting for mmr..I think too many people are having skewed viewpoints because we keep getting the self care brigade

  • Falkner09Falkner09 Member Posts: 347

    Looping has always been luck based for killers. even the act we call "mindgaming" is nothing but luck in guessing what the survivor will do. Even the best streamers fail as often as succeed. watch them live, instead of the videos they upload, and you'll see that it's true. Survivors have the powwer role in looping, and killers have to rely mostly on luck for the non-see-through loops.

    Survivors are mad that Spirit turns this around on them.

  • batax90batax90 Member Posts: 879

    you do know every start of the game the killer need to guess which direction to go

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,923

    There are no facial expressions but the Spirit still turns and moves a bit because the other player is controlling them. You can use the micromovements to possibly try and gauge if they are moving or turning slightly in the direction they are thinking of phasing for instance similar to how you can try to gauge where a ranged killer might be aiming. You can also do a loop one particular way in one chase and do it a different way the next chase.

    I’m certainly not claiming Spirit is weak at loops, fyi. She’s strong because she’s harder to react to. But the killer running her isn’t random and there are players who are better than average at making correct reads on how Spirits are going to play. My issue here isn’t even about Spirit in particular, it’s about this recurring thing where when people need to guess what other people are going to do it’s called “luck” or “a coin toss” when it’s not.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,652

    Alright, so let's imagine your against a spirit, shes got stridor so her tracking is enhanced by that , but what many also dont think about is that it also makes their ability to gauge distance worse , so using a double back and walking through her later into the phase more often than not gets you some d iui stance because they'll be out of juice by then..now spirit is on decent cooldown..another thing you can do is to treat her like oni..some spirits only phase against injured players since it's when shes strongest..so just give up a few pallets..having pallets is slightly less important because spirit in phase doesnt need a pallet to be trumped although it helps..also use structures to your advantage , she can't ignore them and they give you more ways to force her to exit phase to try and get you via windows and safer pallets.

  • EnlyneEnlyne Member Posts: 429

    Seeing some of those spirit mains over here arguing about "this thread again just git gud and mindgame lmao"

    But at the same time there's a thousand of "nerf ds" posts everyday.

    Obviously the blueberry is broken aswell, not just DS, deal with it.

  •  Antares2332 Antares2332 Member Posts: 1,087

    Spirit is fine

  • MigrantTheGreatMigrantTheGreat Member Posts: 1,260

    Ik how to mindgame! I just don't like dealing with looping because it's the same tactic over and over again! And trust me it's soon-feeding because all survivors have to do is peak around corners looking for information which nullifies skill (imo at least)!

    My definition of skill is using basic character knowledge and how the player is playing the character to outplay the other! When I play survivor I don't feel this unless I'm playing against Nurse (sometimes), Spirit or Slinger (though I gotta get better at playing against Slinger before I complain about him)! Why? I'm feeding off information! That's like taking a test, but your given the answer key!

  • EnlyneEnlyne Member Posts: 429

    It's not the survivors's fault that looping is the only thing the devs designed to take away killer's time.

    Hence the reason why Spirit shouldn't exist with such a power that pretty much nulls that with blind guessing and cheap killer builds.

  • maderrmaderr Member Posts: 251

    Ok then if the way she is played is to make the survivor "guess", then let's remove stridor and counterplay her by letting her "guess" aswell when she is phasing.

    Spirit doesn't require any skill to be played, it's ez mode. If you don't 3k+ all the time as a Spirti, it means the player is trash.

  • OllieHellhunterOllieHellhunter Member Posts: 679

    Looping isnt the only thing that can take the killers time, just the most consistent and most effective.

    The devs have designed perks such as Diversion and Red Herring around giving the killer false information.

    Theres also stealth in its entirety, the killers time isnt being used effectively if you're not found.

  • EnlyneEnlyne Member Posts: 429
    edited August 2020

    Nobody uses stealth perks as they are underwhelming overall and stealth as such is not well rewarded towards survivors, your best BP gaining activities are interacting with the killer, not playing hide and seek the whole match.

    I've barely seen anybody use Diversion if it ain't to just meme around, Red Herring not a single time.

    Being restricted to some perks just because a killer is broken seems legitimately bad to me.

    EDIT: Just to point out, Diversion only recharges on the terror radius, which is already a pretty bad condition to meet for a single noise.

  • MigrantTheGreatMigrantTheGreat Member Posts: 1,260

    Looping was never intended to be a thing! They thought that survivor's would just drop the pallet and dip tf out! But looping evolved to become a thing hence why BHVR added Bloodlust and than reworked looping! I ultimately think that we as a community gave the devs the idea of Spirit, because of mindgaming!

  • OllieHellhunterOllieHellhunter Member Posts: 679

    When did I say they were used often? They're pretty rarely used as in general looping is more consistent and effective. However looping is not the only thing the revs designed to waste killers time as you said.

  • EnlyneEnlyne Member Posts: 429

    Well yes, I -did- say it was the only thing as in, when you're in a chase, not as a whole, the main point im trying to prove is there's no escape at all from a Spirit in a chase, and she's eventually gonna find you.

    And no, I just pointed out that they weren't used often out of my own knowledge, not cause you said it was one thing or the other.

  • AwakeyAwakey Member Posts: 3,145

    I'm not defending the other guy.

    But ######### does DS have to do with ANYTHING.

    This thread is about Spirit.

  • ALostPuppyALostPuppy Member Posts: 3,398

    Spirit is not the only killer with guessing, every killer does to a degree. Faking the Red light at a jungle gym? GhostFace going undetectable with M2? Huntress readying/not readying a hatchet at a pallet? Demo charging shred around a corner? These are all true 50/50s if the killer does it right and They're perfectly fine. What makes spirit's 50/50s not fine is that they're not. Standing still at a pallet isn't initiating a mindgame or anything, she's just waiting to see what you do. Still don't understand the whole "me see Spirit stand still, me run away from loop" because she's just gonna phase walk up to you and hit you because you're leaving scratch marks AND you're also now out in the open away from everything??? Like the Spirit can see you run away she doesn't suddenly lose the ability to use her power or see things when she stands still.

  • azameazame Member Posts: 2,870
  • azameazame Member Posts: 2,870

    Thank you people dont understand that when she stands still all she has to so is react to what you do. If you leave phase to you. If you stay phase to the other side. If you walk into her free hit.

  • EntityDrudgeEntityDrudge Member Posts: 184

    I dont get ######### you think you're entitled to the killer's gameplan. You know her power. You can study her base perks and power. Study all killer teachable perks. And study how top players play her. All beforehand. You are not entitled to know exactly what each player is going to do. big boy pants time

  • ErkErk Member Posts: 230

    She knows where she is going. The survivor can guess, the Spirit doesn't have to. Spirit can react to foot steps, breathing, grass and other stuff while the survivor can "guess bruh".

  • AwakeyAwakey Member Posts: 3,145

    They're commenting on Spirit threads but not DS threads?

    That's your anwser? Really?

    I'm only going to ask one more time: What do those two items have to do with each other? One is a full Killer with a unique power. The other is an extremely strong, overhyped perk.

  • ErkErk Member Posts: 230
    edited August 2020

    Did you not read my post ? I literally said that every game AND every killer has luck involved in it but when skill and luck is a 50/50 split, the problem starts to arise.

    I literally don't know what to say here. The devs never intended you to hide your red light either ?

    Besides, if a survivor dropped a pallet and ran, the killer would win EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

    1 - Hearthstone today is not. What are you on about ?

    2 - The person that wins that mindgame you are talking about is the better player because s/he has more experience in the game, thus, could predict the movement but there is a clear line between skill and luck. Spirit is pure luck. If you escape her, you are lucky. If you don't you are not. A good Spirit will always catch you on %90 volume with Stridor, there is nothing you can do against that lol.

    3 - That is a mindgame ? In a mindgame, you think. In this, you don't ! You goddamn guess ! How did you not understand this yet. You are such an idiot. Read before you speak.

    You know the Spirit doesn't see scratch marks without the iridescent addon, right ? You don't know anything about this killer yet you come here to lecture us. Good job man. Good job.

    What animation ? There is literally no animation ! What are you talking about lol.

    I advise you to watch Scott Jund's video "How to Run Tiles in DbD". Even if you can't mindgame and get a hit, you can atleast force the pallet drop. You play Spirit so you don't mindgame, then. You want to make the game 50x easier.

    She can HEAR you. Going backwards or doing some stuff wont change that. If you run into her, she might hear you or even worse, collide with you ! "Give up a few pallets" ? There are, like, 12 on the map ! If you give 2 per chase, you'll out by them the 6th time, and if your teammates do the same you'll lose all pallets in a short amount of time !

    "Moves" ? What ? A good Spirit won't move an inch. You don't know what you are talking about.

    It is a coin toss. If you walk into her and she is in phase, she hits you ! If you walk into her and she is not, she hits you ! If you don't walk into her and she is phase, she hears you (Stridor) ! If you don't walk into her and she is not in phase, she will go into phase so that she can hit you. Very cool man. Very cool.

    Read the edit OR the first brackets

    Not as much as Spirit. Spirit removes every skill whatsoever. If you are good at the game then you will mindgame correctly. If the other person is better, they will expect it. With Spirit, all of this gets thrown out the window. You guess.

    Killer main btw.

    Post edited by MandyTalk on
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