Its absolutely not. a reactable 50/50 isn't a 50/50 and a reactable mixup isn't a mix up.
If you can react or fuzzy block its neither of those things lol
Reducing spirit to 50/50 is also intensely disingenuous. It's not block high or low, its pick one of half a dozen paths the spirit will take. Not a 50-50.
Most of the complaints on this forum are really illusions people conjure up to hide the simple fact that they suck at this game.
I mean i wouldn't say suck at the game because they could be really good at facing other killers. I would say to hide the fact that they dont want to adapt to certain killers and learn now strats
This is a major false equivalency.
In a fighting game a 50/50 is a technique which is usually set up before hand by a combo, telegraphing to the other player that an attacker is going for a 50/50.
The "punishment" for guessing incorrectly is actually a reward to the attacker for initiating combat. Fighting games which lack rewards for initiation (For Honor anyone) suffer from a stale game play loop which is generally un-fun to play and to watch.
The 50/50 is inherently a guess where either side can come out on top if guessed (or read) correctly, meaning the defender has an option for not only saving health but actually punishing the attacker.
Both players have an equal chance at guessing correctly, the attacker is rewarded more highly to encourage interaction (IMO how games should be).
Dead By Daylight
Spirit's phasing is not a 50/50
-The survivor does not know if she is phasing (barring the inconsistent and impossible to replicate "glowing shards" which are hidden on certain cosmetics anyway)
-The survivor cannot see, hear, or bump into the spirit
-The spirit phasing can freely get to either side of a loop meaning physical barriers (pallets, vaults) are mostly ignored
-The spirit can see blood, scratch marks, and environmental physics (crows, survivors push grass and corn while moving through it)
-The spirit can hear the survivor running, walking, standing still (breathing), fast vaulting, slow vaulting, fast locker, and slow locker
-If the spirit finds the survivor she gets a hit. If the survivor somehow dodges the spirit they gain mere seconds in a chase. Good spirits reserve full charge for a chase and only use a quarter to a third of the bar to get on the same side of the loop as the survivor.
-Iron Will counters injured grunts, while Stridor counters Iron Will, thereby negating the perk.
-Quick and Quiet does allow you to enter a locker without any noise whatsoever. This is generally a bad idea as lockers are a huge commitment and getting caught ends the chase even while healthy or with endurance.
As you can see there is actually little to no guess work for the Spirit, while the survivors have no information or defense.
However Spirit's still lose. That is down to gen speed being extremely fast, and not survivors outplaying the killer. The Spirit can win every chase quickly while still losing all the gens, leading to a game experience where interaction is punished for both sides.
Thus many people dislike facing Spirit.
True. Most people on this game refuse to admit they can improve. Instead they want nerfs. What they don't realize is mix ups are good for the game. Especially in fighting games. If I'm playing mortal kombat against a character I know very well. Odds are they won't get many hits on me because I know all their combos. This is why mix up characters exist. So doing the same thing over and over is not feasible.
Too many times I see people trying to loop a nurse. When they should be running away blocking LoS. Or people trying to run away from a spirit when they should try to mind game her. It's sad that the one trick pony of running from pallet to pallet works so well on so many killers in this game.
So... spirit its a complex killer because you need to know how to use a surround sound headset.
How hard it is to soundwhore a game actually? Is that skill?
does everone think anyone who play her uses surround sound headset?
Yea so like, if she is chasing you and you see let's say shack window (a strong window), depending on some things, you can essentially vault that window and counter anything she can do. Unless you are already super close to shack, chances are that she can't phase around to the other side in time to hit you. So you vault the window and then have to go left or right. It's a 50/50, but the idea is that you avoid getting hit out of phase. Obviously that's a super simple example, but that's kind of the idea. You do something that just flat out negates her only valid options. Most of the time that means vaulting a window which she can possibly phase around to get you right after you vault, so she has to pick a side to approach and you have time to continue running as she goes around.
You should always be looking for the path that maximizes the distance she has to phase to reach you so that she can't ever hit you out of phase.
Which she is a 110 killer and struggles on certain maps that are large or maps with really strong windows. Ward is a great example of an anti-Spirit map, the main building can be really hard to play around if survivors know how to run those windows.
She also lacks tracking, and that is probably the hardest thing to do well as Spirit is finding and tracking survivors.
If Spirit messes up, that's at least 10 seconds of pure 110 chase. If you can do that consistently enough you waste enough of her time for her to reconsider chasing you. Really you only need to do it maybe 3 times for it to REALLY hurt her.
"Reducing spirit to 50/50 is also intensely disingenuous. It's not block high or low, its pick one of half a dozen paths the spirit will take. Not a 50-50."
There is nothing disingenuous about it. Spirit does not have half a dozen paths she can take, she has usually 2 MAYBE 3 valid options that will catch you in a good situation. Either she follows directly behind you or tries to cut you off. Maybe an alternate path to cut you off or avoid a pallet/window maybe. That means it is a 50/50 because she has to pick on of 2 or 3 valid options. She can't just do anything she wants and catch you, there are practical limits to her power.
Also if you are running at a window it is indeed a 50/50. Either you vault or don't vault, and if it's a decent window she has to predict that before exiting phase. She can't react to you vaulting the window because she will waste her power waiting for you to commit, and if you slow vault or maybe have Q&Q or something then you just baited her to wait on the wrong side and waste her power.
Spirit doesn't allow you to "read" her. That's the problem. On top of that, this isn't a competitive fighting game and it is an unfair comparison.
amen to this lol
My main issue with her is that they slap the “she can’t see the survivor” as a weakness, but you can clearly hear a survivor if you are right on their behind. Even with collision being removed you can still direct the hit without the survivor being able to do much.
But... you can't read a mix up character either. Did you read the article? Mix up characters tend to have moves with similar start up animations. In order to counter play these characters you have to predict what they are doing. This is the exact same thing as the counter play to Spirit.
The comparison is only surface level. There is nothing unfair about it.
This is why Spirit has no counter play:
Stridor makes Spirit OP (you don't get this with any other Killer) it synergies far too well with her M2 ability. Far more so than any other Killers special ability.
Spirit needs to not have Stridor for any counter play to be effective. Bearing in mind that Stridor renders Unbreakable ineffective, the entire control point of weather the Spirit is counterable or not hinges on the Spirit itself. This makes her uncountable.
Doesn't get much simpler than that.
The 50/50 is always in the spirits favor, well I guess I shouldn’t call it a 50/50 anymore. Lol
And what you just said invalidates half of your argument, something I am surprised you didn't notice. Seriously, if you cannot read a character then that character cannot be read. That's... That's basic logic. And it also means that your "prediction" is actually "guessing," which are two completely different things. And the reason the comparison is unfair is because competative games don't need all-around fun gameplay - so they can have absolutely awful things like that. DBD is a casual game that literally cannot be balanced, so it should at least be fun for everyone.
I'm not going to go in depth with this comment, I just want to point a few things out.
You can indeed read someone before they act.
The first clip is a meme, so just go to the second. The Luigi read that the Peach would tech roll left when he spiked her and pre-emptively performed a wavedash and then reactively did up B when he got the confirm on the tech roll left. He did the wavedash BEFORE she teched. That is a read. Therefore, you don't need to see the player to make a read, a read can be a predictive act.
"And the reason the comparison is unfair is because competative games don't need all-around fun gameplay"
This is patently untrue. Games that aren't fun don't last very long in a competitive setting. The game has to be fun before it can be competitive.
"DBD is a casual game that literally cannot be balanced"
I don't agree. It can be and mostly actually is pretty balanced. Gens need to slow down a tad at high ranks, mori/keys need to be looked at, stuff like Iri Head still needs a rework, but for the most part the game is actually quite fair most of the time.
Spirit is fine
is way simpler than that, you cant loop, stun in teh easy way and then t bag, thats why they dont like her because they feel they are not in control, since survivors are the power role and everytone who think the killer is never played on a good 4 man, not even got carried once by them. Spirit is power role, seh has the power to ignore survivor defenses, survivors cant s ee her and the counterplay is non existant because GUESSING is not counterplay but at the same time i cant blame spirit WHY? because if m1 killers were the only ones who could be played then gg, because you are gonna get bullied everytime you get a decent group of survivors.
I'm not going to watch some clip from a completely different game that only supports your argument on a theoretical level. We're talking about the in-game impact of spirit, not some competitive fighting game, and the fact that, like it or not, you're only guessing. You don't know when she's phasing, you don't know where she is when she's phasing, and you don't know what she's doing when she's phasing. Sure, maybe after an entire damned match and 2 gruelling chases you might be able to accurately guess what she's going to do, but by then it's far too late.
Look, DBD isn't and should never be a competitive game. That's not what made DBD popular and it isn't the game the Devs have been making. DBD is a game where winning and losing used to be secondary.
Competitive games aren't fun. That's the core thing about them: the enjoyment comes from beating your opponent, not the gameplay itself. Fighting games are easily the most obvious offenders, but even a casual game of Siege with 9 other memeing friends shows just how boring it is without the desire to kill. People don't play them to have fun, they play them to beat other people. That's what they find fun about them. And that's not what DBD is.
Nah man, these guys are so good they can react to 0-3f command grabs :)
"the fact that, like it or not, you're only guessing"
You're not. Thinking like that is why you get caught in the first place. Stop stating this kind of stuff as a fact.
"You don't know when she's phasing"
You don't need to know.
"you don't know where she is when she's phasing"
There are only so many places she could go to actually get a hit on you.
"and you don't know what she's doing when she's phasing"
She is most likely chasing you. If she's not then what do you need to worry about?
"Look, DBD isn't and should never be a competitive game."
I never asked for it to be. I merely am pointing out that Spirit has counter play and that requires a different skill set than what you need to escape your normie killer type.
"Competitive games aren't fun."
They are hella fun. Smash Melee is one of the most competitive ever AND it is insanely fun. Even at the highest level. The only time it's not fun is if you are playing against a good Puff (eg. Hungrybox). Which I've compared in the past to playing against Spirit, as it is a frustrating experience for many players. CS is a lot of fun and very competitive. People that games competitively initially did so because it was fun. The only ones who maybe don't have as much fun anymore are the top players who are at a point it's a job to them, but they get paid so the fun is irrelevant (to them specifically).
"And that's not what DBD is."
There are literal threads of both killer and survivor mains stating how they get off on killing/escaping while also making the game as miserable as possible for the other side. Not to mention, there are MANY players in this game that play to win and will sweat as much as possible.
What fighting games are these people familiar with that come down to "block up or low"? To be fair, the only fighting game im barely familiar with is Blazblue, but you gotta block up or down 3-10 hit combos before you erven get a chance to counter, while theyre doing it. The inittial attacks arent those huge swings you can react to, but the tiny jabs that get out fast.
Schrödingers spirit is a fun problem, if you dont know if she's phased or not, then do something that works against both. Why'd anyone be running into her because she's standing still is beyond me.
Normally there are many things i dont share similiar opinion to suicidefox, but this comparison is rather good.
Dude. Please do not compare spirit to a fighting game. Mix-up characters in fighting games are characters that force you into 50/50 spots. The pro players who study the game will know what each fighter is capable of, potentially punishing the opponent if they guess right. They also have an opportunity to fight back.
Spirit is a very dumb killer for many reasons. One, you can't see her through her power. Giving you zero opportunity for counterplay. She doesn't really need to loop because she just shifts on you. Also most killers with movement powers get a penalty after using their power. Hilbilly cooldown, legion stun, nurse fatigue, Oni slight pause. Even blight will have one. But spirit does not. If she whiffs, it's no biggie. She didn't follow properly? No problem. Passive phase is just dumb as well. So yeah, she is a killer that definitely needs to be looked at. And I think most people agree on that, including killer mains.
Not as fun as facing Billy, Huntress, or Nurse
Feels like some skill is involved in those 3 at the very least.
I find Spirit, much easier to play than them. Or at least am much more consistent with Spirit comparatively. Being more dominant doesn't = more fun though. Challenge is fun, usually, of which the 3 listed above supply fairly regularly. She isn't 100% balanced though, but what killer really is?
May be biased though, I like to play against and play as the 3 mentioned above sooo....
If you guess right vs spirit, you extend the chase. Thats punishment. She has a cooldown on her ability, which is worse than a stun imo (though stun AND cooldown is just plain bad) and she only moves at 110% speed. 2-3 bad phases can easily cost her a gen, especially since she needs to phase again across the map to traverse it at a decent pace. Though all of that aside, the problem with most survivors mindset is the last line:
"They also have an opportunity to fight back."
This is what it all boils down to. The majority of the people being loud on the topic want to be able to punish the spirit harder for a mistake. They want to be able to humiliate her for playing such a mindless babby killer. They want more footage for their youtube montages. The toxicity is getting so out of hand, that if a killer can deny it, they MUST be a broken killer, right?
You're not supposed to be able to "fight back" vs any killer. You are supposed to be able to waste their time, to ruin their map pressure, and prevent them from achieving their objective. Its not a 1v1, and its never intended to be. the 1 SHOULD be more powerful than any one of the 4.
Lastly, play her until you learn how to counter her. Missing a phase hit can be a lot more damning than you're making it out to be, especially in situations where sounds get bugged, the survivor uses fixated to walk away from the phase and behind a wall, other survivors making noise notifications to throw you off, etc. Hell, even meme perks like pebble can waste your time off a bad phase.
"Learn how to counter her". This is a stupid response. There is NO counter to a Spirit with Stridor. Trying to be random wont work because they ahve all the info they need/
Thats the problem. Base spirit with no add ons? Potentially if they aren't a high tier killer you can outplay them. Iron will? Free win (which is stupid as hell anyway). Stridor? Even if you have iron will you're just making it easier for her. There's no "picknig the right option" against her when she has that much info. Its a flawed arguament by people who cant underrstand how unhealthy her design is from a long term game health perspective.
Old freddy was [BAD WORD] trash but he was unhealthy. Thats why we hated him. LEgion is trash but extremely boring to play against hence the DCs. Spirit is strong, yes. And that MAY be why some poeple hate her or want her changed. But the truth of the matter is that Spirit is extremely unengaging to play against? You think I want to loop killers? hell no its boring as [BAD WORD].
But you cant take away counterplay without adding some new form in response.
And "just be unpredictable" isnt counterplay because she has all the cards with the sound she hears. This is the equivalent of a Tekken game where that enemy Yoshimitsu can see your buttons before you input them. This aint mordhau. Unpredicatbility doesn't work.
I think that's part of my reasoning aswell. I've gotten flak for it but I've said I'm fine with Wraith staying meh for example until they increase his skill ceiling. Freddy is a similar case. Extremely basic to play and lacking in any sort of skill ceiling at all, but so strong that 4 equal skilled solos to a skilled freddy will pretty much always lose.
It says a lot that him and Spirit are considered the go-to "turn your brain off" killer for grinding bloodpoints or pips.
Deathslinger, for how much I complain about the chase and find him pretty dull to face. Is skill based but has pretty major penalties to misplaying or lacking skill. As do Nurse and Huntress.
I find it hard to dictate wether Spirit as a mid level skill ceiling or a high one. There's a lot you can do with her power especially with the speed add ons. But it never really comes into play because the survivor will lack the feedback to get into a situation where the killer needs to use that skill.
Her power also charges way too fast if she does misplay, there's basically no punishment.
At the end of the day I still play her occasionally because I find her extremely fun. But, and this may be hypocritical, I'm at the point a year or more later where I hear the phase at the start of the match and struggle to motivate myself to continue playing. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't DCed against a Spirit or two in recent months due to just not being in the mood. I usually pride myself on not DCing unless someone else quits early or 2 survivors go down at the basement a minute in. But at this point its just not fun to face her anymore. I get no satisfaction from "outplaying" a Spirit because I know I DIDN'T outplay her, I just got lucky. There was no skill involved from my side. Whereas if it did happen, its because she lacked skill and outplayed herself.
I consider doing the same with Legion and Deathslinger sometimes even though 95% of games against them are free wins so "le you just le mad you cant le loop her xD" is a cop-out excuse. I still love playing against Billy, Hag, Huntress, Micheal and Pig. Even Oni, who is mysteriously never mentioned by the "you're mad you can't loop arguers". It's just boring. "Oh, I think shes phasing I'll tr- Oh im dead good play yep lots of fun. Oh shes on me again how about I fake a double back and then vau-Oh Im dead because she heard me because STRIDORLOL"
And how does Spirit prevent you from reading her? From learning how she plays and adapting to her weaknesses?