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The 2nd game in BOTB tourney shows how unbalanced DBD is at top-level play



  • MeatBycicleMeatBycicle Member Posts: 754

    I doubt any killer thinks oh cool 2 survivors escaped and probably pipped, good draw. Those two survivors who escaped 100% view that as a win for themselves, they could care less about the other two survivors who died because they themselves won and beat the killer.

    I'm not saying every killer deserves a 4k, I'm just saying the rhetoric of 2k 2 escape is fair really isn't. It is only fair for survivors, killers gain nothing from this.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 2,319
    edited September 2020

    This could actually mean your skill is at x and the survivors you lost are at higher level y.

    To OP: Tournaments that i've watched consist of an extreme genrush sacrificing all other gameplay options. That's not how the majority should or will play. A 2K against a sweaty genrush ignoring all other mechanics means killers might actually be a little OP.

  • ScottJundScottJund Member Posts: 1,034

    Bro some of the survivors literally weren't even looking behind them

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    i would change the narrative

    if you face as survivor anything else but nurse and spirit who camp + tunnel, use noed and walk away with less than 2e

    you are bad at the game or somebody at your team is really bad at the game

  • MrLimonkaMrLimonka Member Posts: 545

    Errr.... Alright, let's put this another way. The survivors are a team consisting of 4 players, the killer is a team consisting of one player. If two survivors escape, and the killer gets 2 kills then each team completed half of their objective. Sounds like a draw, doesn't it?

    This situation is OBJECTIVELY a draw. If a survivor thinks they won because they escaped or if a killer thinks they lost because they killed only 2 survivors then that opinion is SUBJECTIVE.

    If we went with your logic though, the 2 survivors who lose will view it as a lost match. If two survivors "lose" and two survivors "win", then what does that give you?

    And lastly, why would you care about a singular survivor's opinion, anyways? Survivors, as a team only win if 3+ survivors escape.

  • woundcowboywoundcowboy Member Posts: 1,038
    edited September 2020

    Both sides should be balanced around top level play: no other game balances for people who aren’t good.

    The idea that it would somehow ruin the game for non top people is silly if you think about it. Decisive strike and dead hard could be taken out of the game and it wouldn’t affect joe blow and his friends playing on the weekend. Their survival rate would probably be the same. These things are only broken in the hands of skilled players, who would be most affected by balance changes.

  • MeatBycicleMeatBycicle Member Posts: 754

    Because survivors view themselves as a team when it benefits them, such as SWF, yet they also want the 1v1 against the killer.

    I can tell you when I play solo queue as survivor If I can save my teammates great, if I was the only one who escaped great, I beat the killer and could care less about the other survivors. I won, I pipped.

    Now of course every killer won't think this way, or even care. However what I am saying is overall, the "draw" rhetoric only benefits survivors. It does not benefit killers at all.

    If as a killer you work your ass off against 4 ds, 4 adrenaline, 4 borrowed times, and 4 unbreakables and you barely get 2 kills and 2 survivors escape. Those 2 survivors won, they beat you, that killer does not think that was a "draw", that was a loss.

  • ButtercakeButtercake Member Posts: 1,656

    Bring Out The Beer?

  • MrLimonkaMrLimonka Member Posts: 545
    edited September 2020

    Again. Subjective opinion. If you escape in solo queue, good for you. But if two other survivors die, then you AS A TEAM have a draw.

    And as killer, you are the type of person who thinks the glass is half empty, don't you? Let me tell you, if I got two kills against a good team with 4 DS/unbreakable/BT, then personally I would see it as a WIN, not as a LOSS.

    But then again, that's only my opinion. Objectively, looking at the game's perspective, 2k/2e is a draw.

    Subjectivity vs objectivity. It's all there is to it, really.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Yea people fail to understand this. LOL at pretty much the first 10 replies.

    Guys he's not talking about tournament play he is talking about top level play. There is a huge difference. Tournament play includes top level play but top level play is not exclusive to tournaments.

    Just get a really good SWF and you will see what he is talking about. And it's not as uncommon as people claim, at least on Xbox. Literally every other game is a 3 or 4 stack, and the ones inbetween are 2 duos usually. Getting 4 solos on Xbox above purple ranks is INSANELY rare.

    My team and I just finished the finals of this other smaller tourney. We won, and of the games we played with the 2nd place team (7 rounds, 2 trials per round), killers ONLY got about 16 kills collectively between both teams (which the highest possible is 56 kills for 14 trials). Most games were 1k, there were a handful of 2ks (I played Huntress one game where i was set to get at least a 2k possible 3k but they found a ######### key and the hatch spawned right in front of the guy with the key so I only got 1k), and exactly 2 4k's, both of which were the same round (Freddy on Hawkins) though in our match we were on track for at least a 3e then he had Devour and it all went to #########. So if we ignore the Freddy Hawkins games (because that map/killer combo is just OP period), that means 8 actual kills out of 48 possible kills. That's a 17% kill rate.

    Mind you the tournament requires survivors and killers to use their 3 teachables, and killers were limited to specific add-ons, it still shows that the game heavily favors survivors at the end of the day. My team and I also played a bunch of KYF games with no rules other than no pink stuff, and the best anyone was able to get was a 2k (well one game was a 4k but we were meming it wasn't a serious match).

    You really can't beat a good group of players, especially if they are on comms.

    BOTB tourney just exemplifies this problem.

  • Aven_FallenAven_Fallen Member Posts: 10,659

    Then DBD is the wrong game for you. I would suggest playing a game with less RNG if you want to "win regardless of what it is".

  • MeatBycicleMeatBycicle Member Posts: 754

    For a draw neither side can win or lose, survivors had 2 winners.

  • MrLimonkaMrLimonka Member Posts: 545
  • MeatBycicleMeatBycicle Member Posts: 754

    You are viewing the survivors as a single unit. When in reality not many people think this way. Do you honestly believe the 2 survivors that escaped are thinking "oh darn, we drew because 2 of us died"? Hell no, they are thinking they won, they beat the killer.

  • BloodyNightsBloodyNights Member Posts: 526

    I'll just throw my hat in here as well. To me if 3+ survivors escape, when I'm playing killer that's a loss. When 2 survivors escape, and 2 survivors die that's a draw. And when I kill 3+ survivors that's a win.

    I don't care that a survivor thinks they won despite 3 teammates dying and they got a free escape through the hatch. The way it sounds from how you are describing it, as long as a single survivor escapes you'll never get a win when you are playing killer. That's pretty ridiculous to me. But half of the survivors dying and half escaping means that in your logic 2 think they lost, and 2 think they won. As a team which it's a team game that is a draw.

  • MeatBycicleMeatBycicle Member Posts: 754

    I understand what you are saying, and yeah it can seem that its coming off that way. However realistically those 2 survivors did win, and they probably pipped, while as a killer, especially in red ranks if you do not get all 4 you probably don't even black pip.

    When i say that a "draw" only benefits survivors, i mean it in the sense of that two get to say they, won, and 2 get to more than likely pip. Hell even the ones that died might have pipped, The killer on the other hand doesn't get to say he won, he lost, and probably didn't pip. That is why I am saying its not balanced.

  • HectorBrandoHectorBrando Member Posts: 1,751
    edited September 2020

    Nurse wasnt nerfed because God Nurses, she was nerfed because Omega 5-blink Nurses, which were very common and not that hard to play since you had 5 tries at hitting the Survivor also she had an even better proxy camping potential than Demogorgon.

  • OllieHellhunterOllieHellhunter Member Posts: 669

    So they nerfed her basekit solely because of add-on combinations?

  • MrLimonkaMrLimonka Member Posts: 545

    Okay. By the same logic the two survivors that died also think "Oh darn, I lost, I hope I escape the next match". And what? I bet the survivors who escape would be happy and the survivors who die would be unhappy. Doesn't change anything at all...

    That is why, and I say it for the nth time, OBJECTIVELY the survivors should be viewed as a team. And if only half of the team escapes then it is a draw. Capiche?

  • Xbob42Xbob42 Member Posts: 1,118

    Ah yes, the fun party game like Mario Party, but where there is only ranked matchmaking (no casual matchmaking), an MMR system, and the entire game is balanced around tiny little buffs like 5% to this, or 10% to that.

    Just like Mario Party, where you can lose on literally the last turn by having all your stars stolen by a random dice roll!

  • BloodyNightsBloodyNights Member Posts: 526
    edited September 2020

    I mean I can get a 4k, but because a survivor kills themselves too early, or I'm using a killer who has one shots. I might not pip as a killer. Pipping honestly shouldn't be taken into account at all imo.

    Also in my view you shouldn't really pip as a killer for getting a 2k. Pipping should be reserved for when you do dominate and do exceptionally well. That's if the pipping system actually did it's job and worked correctly, which it doesn't. As it's a draw. A lot of ranking systems with draws barely have you go up, but you don't go down. Survivors it's way easier to pip than killer. Unless the killer sucks and you escape and sometimes de-pip, or just black pip because you just did objectives and left. Not really the survivors fault that they never got chased, and never got to unhook anyone because the killer couldn't catch the survivor, or was afk in the basement.

    Long story short, using pip system to base off wins is really faulty in my views. Ideally if you 2 hooked everyone, everyone in the whole match should pip or black pip at worst. Due to how long the game went on and how many chases/unhooks were made. The did you kill 3+ or did you 3+ escape should really determine victory. With 2 being balanced and a draw. No individual survivor actually thinks they can 1v1 a killer by doing all of the gens and escaping the game all by their selves. If they say they can they are trolling. They know it's a team game that survivors play.

  • PrettyFaceKatePrettyFaceKate Member Posts: 1,704

    And why do you care what they think? The game gives killer and survivors their respective objective and tells you that the balance (tie condition) is 2k2e. Care about your objectives.

  • KilmeranKilmeran Member Posts: 3,079
    edited September 2020

    Precisely. I agree with that. The pipping system, itself, does not reflect the Devs' stance that a 2k/2 escape is a balanced match ending in a draw.

    As is typical here, the in-game system design does not reflect what they state. Using Pips as an indicator is simply flawed right now.

  • HectorBrandoHectorBrando Member Posts: 1,751
    edited September 2020

    Actually her base kit is very similar to what she already had, the main diference is the blink regaining ratio, before you got all your blinks back after fatigue, now you get one every 3 seconds, while it sounds harsh the fatigue from a 2 blink miss is 2,5 seconds, once you recover you already have 1 back, its not THAT bad. It was a nerf and I wont argue that but is not what made Nurse what it is now, its the removal of most of her "+X blink" addons.

    To answer your question, I believe they nerfed the Blink regaining ratio to punish mistakes and blink spamming, the sheer amount of distance you could gain by spamming blinks was worth the 3-4 second stun, that was what made Omega Nurse so freakishly strong, even in hands of a not so very good player.

  • Kumnut768Kumnut768 Member Posts: 789

    2k still isnt a loss whats this obsession with "if you didnt 4k you lost"

  • BrhoomBrhoom Member Posts: 199

    So... You wanted the Nurse to get a 4k and because she didn't the game is unbalanced?

  • BaldursGate2BaldursGate2 Member Posts: 994

    Every Player versus Player Game is competetive to a certain degree and nobody can win always, doesn't matter which competetive game or esport it is. If you want to be the best hag player in the world, you have to practice a lot. If you just want to have fun it's ok too.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246
    edited September 2020

    You are wrong, there never was no thing as a Omega 5 blink nurse, omega nurse required 2 addons and so did 5 blink nurse.

    No nurse ever needed to camp ever since you would travel the entire map with a few blinks. No matter who popped up on bbq you go there.

    Oh and from the same person that brought creations such as "small pp build" he complained vocally about no counterplay against god tier nurses on the forums which you can imagine, lots of people jumped in on the bandwagon and suddenly there were god nurses everywhere. The only fun part is that he actually challenged people on the forums to play against a nurse and get a win, ofc he wouldnt play the nurse himself but a friend of his (this already tells how totally broken op it was, just for the lulz). Do not get me wrong, omega and 5 blink was busted af but addon needed change and nothing else.

    This is the reason why nurse had a class of her own in the tierlists, demo was not even remotely close to that and never will be.

    So yeah god nurse argument was a thing back then and it is pretty much the reason why basekit was demanded to be touched. Since that nerf however it is funny that literally the same people who wanted nerfs back then defend swf since then with "well how many people do play that way?".

  • HectorBrandoHectorBrando Member Posts: 1,751

    Yeah, I know the 5 blink and omega nurses were a separated thing (Omega was range, 5blink speaks for itself) is a way of speaking and I didnt state she needed to camp, just said it was freakishly easy to proxy camp with her as you rescued someone she could go back near the hook in seconds, get fatigued and have all her blinks again, even easier than proxy camping with Demogorgon (I just compared their proxy camping capabilities, not the whole package as Killers).

    The problem with both iterations of busted addons Nurses were even in regular hands they were very strong either by having way too many second chances at a hit and being almost impossible to disengage or having godlike pressure. Obviusly an average 5blink Nurse would have a hard time getting hits against extremely good Survivors, but against average Survivors she was devastating.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 4,121

    Prisma and Eternal Kittens are elite teams. Volga is one of the best Nurse players in the world. I don't think it's as much of an imbalance as it is two extremely high level teams going head to head. The killer knew to play for the 3 gen, and the survivors knew exactly how to deal with it. If anything, it was a great game.

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