Copy pasted from another thread
Because a 50/50 is not a 50/50 with some killers.
A Spirit with Stridor
A Pyramid Head with I'm All Ears
Death Slinger having a half second shoot time etc...
In these situations you don't feel equal with the killer, both sides don't have the same chance …
The community seems mostly ok with PH, it seems the vocal minority is running the show again
Right cuz PH can counter every DS and BT ... first you must be tormented and you still have a chance to remove it by saving a survivor from cage... but i guess one killer must always be nerfed now that billy was nerfed ... lets see who you want to nerf next
1) Make his Punishment of the Damned (ranged attack) only usable on Survivors suffering from Tormented (!!!) BUT
2) Make Punishment of the Damned much, much faster and not clunky to control (IE, give it the same turn-speed / control scheme as when not using Rites of Judgement). Think charged hatchet fast, still dodgeable but not braindead easy.
3) Make both hooking and caging remove tormented, but only for the one being unhooked / uncaged and not the unhooker / uncager
4) Allow all hook related perks to work with cages, both killer and survivor
My biggest issue with playing as PH is how clunky he feels. Seriously, no matter how good you get with him, Punishment of the Damned still controls like hot garbage. Because his ranged attack is so easy to dodge it's rarely used outside of locked animations, which makes his common playstyle feel very binary.
This is the first part of his in-client description: "The Executioner is a map-manipulation Killer, able to torment Survivors with the hazards he creates." Yet he definitely does not feel like a "map-manipulation Killer". That's because at current being "Tormented" isn't very threatening; Cages are situational and Final Judgement... well, you're dead anyways if you get to that point, mini-mori or not. By tying his ranged attack to his trails you shift emphasis to the fabled "map-manipulation" playstyle he is meant to embody while freeing up some power budget to make Punishment of the Damned not feel terrible. This also gives a bit more counterplay in that Survivors can choose to avoid the Tormented status to not have to go through the animation-lock traps he currently relies on.
The second part of his in-client description is much more straight-forward: "Affected Survivors will be vulnerable to his special Hook, the Cage of Atonement and his special mori, Final Judgement." It says it right there; SPECIAL HOOK. Keyword being HOOK. The cage is a hook for all intents and purposes. I get it, wanted to maybe shake up the meta with PH? Didn't really work, everyone is still taking the same builds. The difference is that survivors are getting frustrated by not being able to use the perks that they took and PH's builds are more limited as opposed to being able to come up with something creative cage-fueled builds such as Devour Hope / Make Your Choice / etc build.
They are built with chase mechanics. That doesn't mean they should have no counterplay at all.
if they finally increase the cooldown to switch m2/m1 .they should also reduce the cooldown after doing a m2 range attack to compensate, i prefer trying to dodge PH range attacks( kinda like huntress)....but yeah The legendary "get hit or get hit"-Situation is so dumb right now and i hate it
I’m saying that the devs making a cooldown longer won’t put him anywhere below B. He still keeps his anti loop and the ability to put someone in death hook instantly which will keep him in A.
Firstly, it’s easy to dodge depending on where the killer lines his attack up and if that person has dead hard. If it was so easy then no would would get hit by it in the first place by it. So calling it easy to dodge simply is bs because what’s the point running all ears if it easy to dodge?
Secondly, the person missing isn’t on the killer, but the player so we need to get that straight because how good the killer perform is on the player. A person missing their attack frequently shouldn’t mean the killer is bad. So when we talk about a good pyramid head they hardly to ever misses because the killer has no reason to miss his attack. At best 4 times in one match and once again it’s on the player(unless the person has dead hard).
I don’t understand why people use the argument of what if you miss because many people who play nurse miss their attack, but do we see her low in the tier list often?
If you are talking about pyramid head in red ranks then you should have a good understanding as to why he should have a longer cooldown when leaving his m2.
I really enjoy playing pyramid head but his ability to walk around with m2 and then just smack you if you don't drop the pallet/vault a window definitely needs to get nerfed.
I really wouldn't mind seeing punishment of the damned apply torment as well but this might be too strong and promote campy gameplay (hitting unhooked and unhooker then just caging).
More incentive to cage would be cool too. BBQ activating or cage spawning closer but allowing hook perks could be interesting.
Kinda sucks that's how that works because there r more survivors than killers, but then again that is the fairest/easiest way to plan what they need to do
I can see them nerfing the m2 cancel into m1, but that's about it. Cages will likely stay as is, they were designed to be unique not just an easier unhook.
If he gets nerfed, he needs compensation for it.
This is sad honestly. He's a great mind killer. Oh no he can fake his ability and hit me because I panicked. Surv mains always complain about being out brained or faked out sure .5 secs is slightly to quick. Any longer he won't be viable in high rank games. Atm there is literally 3 including him that can do good at high ranks. I think it would be surv sided if he gets needed.
It's insane how people like you think every killer should have "consistent counterplay" when there's 4 survivors vs 1 killer on every single match.
Imagine thinking the team with more people not only have a right to, but SHOULD be able to 1v1 the killer over and over and over again.
Counterplay should NOT be easy against ANY killer for the simple fact that they're an entire team, while survivors tanking are A PART of the team. Seriously I get the feeling people like you can't wait to get an offline mode where you only go against bots who only follow around every loop and break pallets.
I don't really think he needs a change in my opinion. As a killer, he's fun to play as and as survivor, he's fun to play against, in my opinion (because I don't rely on second chance hook perks). I like that he's a strong killer because the game needs strong Killers at its current state. In regards to the M2/M1 switch, it doesn't really matter to me because he literally is an M1 killer at 4.4 speed until he swings. The hit or hit aspect of him is kinda up to survivor positioning and anticipation. He won't be able to have that situation if a survivor for example throws a pallet earlier at a jungle gym instead of trying to loop. He either has to break it or try and get a ranged hit which could go in either person's favor.
people went from saying spirit has consistent counterplay and to just "git gud" to now saying its okay she doesn't
at least they wised up a bit, baby steps
I fail to see how utilizing a killers kit to the best way possible is playing scummy, but ok.
The PERFECT example of just how delusional some survivor mains are. It's literally an ASYMMETRICAL GAME, in what universe would it be okay for survivors to have the same chance in a chase as killers? That's the dumbest argument I've read today. There's a reason it's a 1v4, if there were 4 killers then OF COURSE, makes sense that survivors should have a chance to win every chase.
Did this never cross your mind or are we playing different games? 4 survivors vs 1 killer? No?
So a Trapper putting a trap on the other side of a wall you can't see is OP too? You can't see it and unless you saw him put it there it's a 50/50 chance every time you move to a different tile. We gonna go around screaming trapper is unfair now? Should there be counterplay to that? What about every time you're about to step on a trap a loud bell rings so you can avoid it.
Not gonna lie, I love PH as he is now both as survivor and killer but your suggestions are perhaps the most sensible unbiased I've read regarding this topic. That way being tormented becomes a real threat and being able to get PGTW/BBQ from a cage sounds like a decent tradeoff for DS and BT.
Please point to me where I mentioned anything even tangentially related to that, omega logical extremes being used in arguments are a sign you have no argument at all imo.
Spirit having a lack of feedback and counterplay is what I said, address that specifically or don't reply at all.
If I may be so bold, I think his cage system should be all or nothing. Either all perks work with his gameplay mechanics or both killer and survivor hook perks should be useless when considering cages to keep a level playing field. It'd be fair beings it'd force PH to weigh the pros and cons of playing like a normal killer and risk DS and BT or use the cages and lose the benefits of BBQ and Chili and other perks. Secondly, DS is easy to negate well before PH was a thing so I'd redirect your focus on making it less easy to cancel out beings you can either wait it out or juggle a survivor to negate it. Not to mention BT is kind of a thin bandaid to apply to being tunneled. Not that tunneling is a problem, its a viable option yet all thr current options can do is slow it, not stop it.
Or make him hit survivors with his head. That will hurt a lot more.
They announced they're gutting pyramid head. that is all you need to know. All that pyramid head ever was that whenever you loop a pallet, if the window or the pallet is straight line, he can put his sword into the ground after 1 second and if you approach said pallet or window, he will either watch you vault window and use POFD or he will cancel his power into M1 and people use this situation as "Pyramid head has no counter-play" because they're looping him in wrong direction. When pyramid puts his sword into the ground, his turning is not full control and in order to flick his attack, he has to stop in place and than turn. so like for example on Shack loop, if you loop clock-wise, you will eventually top situation where pyramid will stick his sword into the ground and wait for you to vault/put down pallet, but if you loop him counter-clockwise where it is a bit harder to get fast vault on shack window, than pyramid head does not have straight line situation at the pallet and he has to make a read through obstacles and he can not really go next to the pallet or else he risks getting stunned. Ironically his gameplay is present on Huntress where people often wind-up a hatchet as turn a corner and if you take window, she hits you, if you move in constricted area of the pallet, you get hit and if you do nothing, she will walk up to shack pallet with hatchet up and than cancel her hatchet and M1 you. Demo is also the same, except unlike pyramid head, he can't hit you through pallets, and he is forced to lunge through pallet and suffer one of the longest pallet break animations for a killer power and Deathslinger is also the same, but if your in 9-10-meter range of deathslinger and he can fake his gun, than your already playing it wrong against him.
Given how unreliable hitting his power already is, if he had 3 second cooldown for canceling his power which would remove his mindgame, I am not even sure if his power would be strong enough even if his power was an instant down. A big reason to why need to fake his power out is that pyramid head is very predictable if he spams his power at every chance he gets and this canceling mindgame grants him a lot of deception and unpredictability. Its what make him very scary in a chase. Its funny how he loses to map pressure despite having very fast chases but that is killer life.
No clue why people freak out about Pyramid head but that is DBD in a nutshell.
I'm glad they are finally doing this, pyramid head is the most obvious killer (besides spirit) that has absolutely no counterplay besides the killer being bad. All the killer has to do is bring up his rites of judgement whenever you reach a pallet or window and you have no choose but to get hit. Even if you manage to get through a window or drop a pallet you only get 1 loop out of it before getting into the same situation again. The only thing you can do is get enough distance to be out of range of his power.
IMO the cage should be separate from hooks but something survivors share. So there are maybe 4 "cage" states and X amount of time between them all. Once the amount is up anyone that has torment can be mori'd.
Also yea sure, a short delay after canceling RoJ before he can swing can help too.
No killer should be able to lock a survivor in a no-win situation. The fact they are this slow to look at him means money before balance.
I literally gave you an example of another situation in the game with no feedback and no counterplay. You can use your buzz words all you want if they make you feel better, I gave you a parallel comparison to the "problematic" nature of the Spirit and you suddenly became Ben Shapiro. I don't need you to mention my example for me to put it on the table.
You get grass moving and footsteps when a Spirit is phasing, a hidden trap won't even do that for you.
You claim I have no argument and not a single time have you addressed why you think all killers should have counterplay, once again, considering this game is an ASYMMETRICAL pvp.
I think the only change I would make if making the cage basically a hook , so you could still use bt or if you saved , you could unhook your self from a cage , other than making his cage just a reskinned hook I don't think any changes are necessary
I think he is in a good spot
I'm not asking for equal speed here, I mean by 50/50 is when I get downed the reason could be either a bad play from me or a good play from the killer.
Red rank Nurse, Spirit, Deathslinger, or Pyramid Head have a huge advantage while in a chase over the survivors that winning against them is the result of them screwing up and not us playing correctly.
You didn't answer me,
How is the Deathslinger having a instant shot fair? What can we do as survivors?
How is Spirit with stridor fair? What can survivors do in that case?
How is Pyramid Head with I'm all ears fair? How can we counter a killer that can shut most loops that survivors just go down in seconds?
i honestly dont think they will.
his core design is all about punishing those who get cocky with hook farms, he is very much like Bubba in that regard, minus the insta down, therefore with the ability to ignore DS.
the only thing that is probaly going to get changed - and what definitely needs changing - is his ability to fake the ability.
though they didnt say they wanted to "nerf" him, they talked about changes. that can just as well mean buffs for his basekit - and i honestly think that they cant just nerf him without buffing him in a different aspect aswell.
Pretty weak response. They're a paying customer and they could voice their opinions as they see fit despite whether or not you agree with them. You don't need to be a developer for that, that's ridiculous.