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Deathslinger has no counterplay?

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  • Avarice10Avarice10 Member Posts: 319

    His power just really isn't fun to go up against, I hate it so much.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    @BioX Is there a way for me to pin this comment all the way to the top?

    A lot of people forget that a lot of the devoted dead by daylight streamers are on a whole different league, or the top 1% of Top Tier skill/experience. So when Zubat claps cheeks at a fast pace with Deathslinger, or Tru3Ta1ent feels that the Clown is S tier, well they have the advantage for being just really damn good at the game. And the majority of the player base are casual players, so of course the game should be balanced around the casuals.

    I could continue but I'd rather keep this response short. You get my vote for being my favorite comment so far!

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    @xEa

    Just about, I'd agree with ya there. I find it fun going against him but i understand if others don't. I wouldn't say disliking a killer automatically means they are overpowered, and a lot of people forget that. Thanks for understanding, bub.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    @dugman

    Thank you kindly, blessed stranger, for dropping some wisdom upon our sacred land!

    I don't watch Scotty but if what you say is true then that helps a bunch with clarifying things here.

    I ain't trying to win a discussion with my post, I'm just trying to shed some light on the Deathslinger and giving ideas for ways to counter him. Obviously if you can use his strengths really well and cover his weaknesses with perks then yea, dude be shootin up a storm and clappin all the cheeks of the wild west! But isn't that any killer if you play em right? Just some killers are more lethal than others, that's all.

  • LufanatiLufanati Member Posts: 181
    edited September 21

    if Deathslinger did have counterplay within the chase, he'd just be dogshit. That's just kinda the way of the game. He's slow, has no secondary power or any sort of utility.

    He's not the only killer with little to no counterplay within the chase anyways. A good nurse, a good spirit, a good blight, a good pyramidhead, even a good doctor using the range add-ons, they'll all down you pretty much no matter what you do, and there powers have other uses to boot.

    If deathslinger's chase was nerfed, he'd need substantial buffs in other areas to avoid falling to the bottom of the tier list. He'd be like clown. A power that's moderately useful in chases, but serves no other purpose. It simply isn't enough to make a viable, or balanced, killer.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    Preach brother! I think he's fairly balanced, lot of ways to counter or delay the slinger.

    I don't get the argument about being unable to dodge him when he is close though. Why does the Huntress not get the same reaction? She can snipe you from far and up close without having to reel you in.

    So what makes him more of a problem, is it his small terror radius? Is it cuz his 18 meter bullet shoots faster than the infinite range Hatchet? Really I believe it is cuz a lot of people don't like playing against Deathslinger, and that's perfectly fine. Just, don't be saying he got no counterplay, the man isn't the strongest killer and I'd hate to see him nerfed cuz of this.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    Could not have said it better me-self! Congrats @Lufanati, ye getting promoted to Deputy!

    On a serious note, I agree completely. If his chase potential is too much, then you would need to nerf that but compensate with a great buff elsewhere to keep his momentum. As he is, I think he's strong enough. If you down the Survivors quick enough, it makes up for his lack of map control.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    Thank you kindly, people ain't good at quick snip asap that stuff takes practice. Just like learning to play against a Deathslinger takes practice, thanks a bunch the quick but to the point reply 😁

  • FFirebranddFFirebrandd Member Posts: 309

    To the OP. Deathslinger being Tall is both a Pro and a Con. Its a con for the reason you said it was. It is a pro because on certain short loops, the Deathslinger can spear you over the loop, wrap around the edge of the loop and bayonette your face before his chain breaks.

    Also whenever I see people say Deathslinger has no counterplay... I just have to wonder... have you played as him ever? Here's a big hint... the spear by itself cannot down you. He needs to reel you in and stab you for that to happen. If he's able to do that, that means you got outplayed and shot in a spot without something for you to get yourself stuck on. If you do manage to get stuck on something during the reel and you are already injured... congrats you just wasted a TON of his very precious time. Your goal isn't to not get shot... because you are going to get shot, its to not get stabbed after the shot.

    Also I'd just like to say... it is possible to outplay getting speared through a window. I'm pretty sure it isn't easy, but I've had it happen to me a few times where I reel someone to a window, swing, and then don't hit them. Usually that happens when the Survivor is able to be all the way to one side of the window then quickly rotate to the other right as or right before I swing.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    Let me tell you @MrLimonka I identify as a Pyramid Head Main and I don't take kindly when people be mentioning how powerful he is cuz I don't want Phineas to be killed like they did to Ferb, ya got that??

    Kidding, i'm kidding 😆

    PH is definitely tough to handle, he does a lot of mindgames that are in his favor same with Spirit. You can't tell if he's dragging his dic-i mean sword for show or if he's prepped to punish ya as soon as you drop that pallet. He's a 60/40 mindgame, try to play chicken with him and keep to wide areas so his Punishment of the Damned sturggles to land. I suppose just like in Silent Hill, the best counter to Pyramid Head is keeping your distance from him or else...

    Also thank ya kindly for giving my post a read. Ya get a cookie! 🍪

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    👏👏👏

    Someone grab Behavior and tell em to hire this man here!

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    What would be considered a victory in that scenario for the Survivor?

    People forget when you in a chase, you try to delay them from getting to ya as long as you can. I would like to escape the Killer, but that's not my decision to make it is theirs. If the Killer wants me dead, I'll be dead, but ye bet I will do my darnest to make him earn this here kill!

    I'd be laughing if the match starts and the Survivor finds the hatch and leaves asap as the winner 😂 that would be fun.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    Yer right, it is a pro in that manner as well. Best example would be the pallet loops in Blood Lodge, Slinger can snip right over them and best ye can do is zig zag on your movements to throw his aim off. I didn't list that as a pro but I'm aware of it, could fit it under the pro of his bullet having a small hitbox.

    Deathslinger is good at a lot of things once he is up close, I just don't see why so many say he got no counter to him. If the Killer got a weakness, that's a counter.

    Hide from the Nurse. Keep obstacles between you the Cannibal, use windows versus Hillbilly, and pre-drop pallets versus Huntress.

    Then people say ya can't do nothing against his shot when hes 9 meters close. Why is that a problem? If I am a killer and I am that close to you, I sure hope i'd be getting a reward for that. And why is this an exclusive issue for Deathslinger when the Huntress can land hard to dodge shots up close as well? Her Hatched hitbox is larger too, so I would probably say she got a bigger advantage within 9 meters then our cowboy here.

    I just hope people start to open up to these ideas and explore em a bit. Closing yourself off from suggestions hinders your ability to learn and progress, and that bites. Sure glad to know you caught me slipping on that pro, thanks for the reminder sir.

    Here, have a cookie! 🍪

  • Kind_LemonKind_Lemon Member Posts: 2,163

    it's not a question of "fair". It's a question of "fun" and if the survivors in a Deathslinger (DS) match can be anything more than bots/moving targets.

    A lot of survivor fun comes from being reactionary, and many killers enjoy pushing a survivor to react in a certain way to get a hit. With DS, survivors can't be reactionary (the only thing that matters are the physical objects in the map and if the DS misses or not), and that sucks a whole load of fun right out of the game for a majority of more skilled players.

  • ItzNobodyItzNobody Member Posts: 174

    I can see that, and I am actually very very thankful you said that. You gave me a new perspective that I didn't think about, thank you for that.

    If I may contribute to your point, I felt like the fun with playing against Killers like The Spirit, The Nurse, and The Deathslinger for example is that they are powerful in the chase. I understand what you mean, it is a lot of fun being in a chase and managing your ground, but part of the fun for me against these other killers is that I can't face them head on like i can with Legion or Wraith. No, you need to hide and keep your distance. So for me, it's fun because it brings me back to horror on its ground roots, facing a threat you cannot best. So for a moment, the game becomes Outlast and hiding becomes the better option. Hiding at a corner or inside a Locker and seeing them walk by and leave, it's spine tingling and very satisfying to evade those encounters.

    And I think not a lot of people like that, hence why they dislike playing against Deathslinger for example. I hope I helped explain my perspective back to ya, but serious credit for explaining yourself incredibly well 🙂

  • Kind_LemonKind_Lemon Member Posts: 2,163
    edited September 22

    np; it came after many rounds of playing against Deathslinger, not having fun, and wondering, "Now, why is that?"

    Additionally, I never think "wow, nice juke" when I play Deathslinger. I only think, "oof, I missed" because I consider (basically) no part of the survivor's input when I shoot.

    I've moved on from those realizations to now just being really confused as to why someone designed him the way he is if the developers that make important decisions actually play the game (as they say).

    Edit: I love facing a great Nurse player (granted good ping, no Infectious, etc.), and the last time I had that experience was before her fun-nerf. Some of the most tense, most exhilarating moments of DbD for me have come about as a result of The Nurse.

    :,( you will be remembered for what you once were...

  • HollowsGriefHollowsGrief Member Posts: 673

    You aren't mean to be able to counter his quick scoping ability, that is the entire reason he has literally no cooldown with it at all. His counterplay is to not give him the chase, in chase if he is good YOU LOSE because you are meant to, he is an extremely high skill cap killer and his power reflects that. If you struggle with him "faking" his power then try to adopt the W strategy a bit more and avoid the chase as much as you can because it takes him a very long time to catch up.

  • XpljesusXpljesus Member Posts: 233

    Agree with you so much, for some reason people think it's fine because you can do gens vs them, same with Spirit and the other commonly complained about killers. It's not about strength or balance, map pressure whatever - it's about fun. The fun in dbd isn't sitting holding M1, it is the chase, it is not fun or satisfying, nor do I feel remotely outplayed EVER vs a Spirit and in 95% of situations vs a Slinger. Maybe <5% of the time they actually hit a really good shot through a crack or something.

    I can play in a 4 man, see it's a Spirit or Slinger who's boring af so we just sweat gens and 4 man escape, the only fun to be had at that point is when you tbag them at the gate since they picked Spirit or something, because the chase is boring, doing gens is boring - literally the entire match is boring and it's why I'll never advocate in favour of DC penalties when such killers exist that you literally can't have fun against unless your enjoyment is being an urban evasion blendette and holding m1

    People need to understand that Freddy, Spirit, Slinger, Phead, Clown, Trapper aren't fun to go against because they aren't satisfying to play against in a chase, not because they are strong - hell the two commonly most deemed unfun killers outside the main 4 are the worst two in the game, yet nobody thinks they should be nerfed obviously.

  • SkeletalEliteSkeletalElite Member Posts: 988
    edited September 22

    no counterplay ≠ unbeatable

    a team who plays well by early throwing pallets and sticking gens will still win, but the game will be extremely boring. Killers like PH, deathslinger, doctor, spirit all have a very unhealthy design in how they're balanced. They're pretty strong in the 1v1 but so much so the way you beat them is by playing as safe as possible and when survivors play as safe as possible and do gens as fast as possible you have games that are extremely unfun for the killer.

    Basically the way to beat them is to make the game unfun for the killer but the alternative is losing to a very unfun killer to play against.

    The problem with deathslinger power is that because he can fire so quickly (and thus leave not enough time for a human to react) and also has no cost (no slowdown/cooldown) to only pretending he's about to shoot, that leaves the only counterplay as throwing pallets before the killer even has the opportunity to try and make a play at the pallet. This is boring as a killer because if survivors paly well you will just spend the entire game trying to catch up to survivors with your 110 speed and kicking pallets. If the survivors don't do this, all they can do is try and guess whether or not the slinger will actually shoot. If the slinger is bad he may miss shots but if he's not he'll just m1 you while you waste time juking or if you don't juke he will just shoot you.

    Pyramid Head has a similar problem. When he sticks his sword in the ground, he slows down a little bit, but is still faster than the survivor. This means anytime you reach a pallet, PH will stick the sword in the ground then if the survivor does not throw the pallet they ran through he just cancels his power and will hit them with a basic attack. If they throw the pallet. Pyramid head will be able to hit them with punishment of the damned because throwing a pallet stops you from moving for ~1/2 second which is more than enough time for pyramid head to react.

    Doctor also has a similar problem to deathslinger. Upon reaching a pallet a smart doc will make you completely unable to throw it and eventually get a hit by repeatedly shocking you just before you reach the pallet. Eventually he will catch up to you and get the hit even though he slows down when he uses his power because it doesn't slow enough to cause the survivor to gain a significant amount of distance. This makes the counterplay to throw the pallet before he can even shock you. Even then the pallet may be short enough that can he can still get the hit by shocking you to stop vaulting, but not all the time. At the pallets where this works, you have the same situation as deathslinger, you spend the game just kicking pallets and running after survivors with no mindgames.

    Spirit's problem is more unique in that the problem is a lack of feedback for the survivors. Survivors are told so little about what the spirit is doing that when you get hit it often feels like all you were doing was running around like a headless chicken just trying to hopefully confuse her, but in the end everything is on her side. A survivor who plays well may be able to delay a decent amount of time by holding W against her but it's very unfun to do because the game feels like it's entirely in the killer's hands and lacks the back and forth interaction between killer and survivor that makes the game fun. The spirit player gets to do all the interacting while the survivor is basically just throwing the bones and hoping they get a highroll.

    tldr; These killers encourage survivors to use boring play styles because it's the only way to consistently outplay good usage of the killer's power and the alternative is just getting killed by something you couldn't have done anything about. These killer aren't overpowered, they're unfun. The solution would be to adjust the powers to be more fun (inevitably making them weaker) but to give them a compensation buff in some other way.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 974

    For starters, he needs an actual animation of lifting his gun. About like spirit when she was missing a vaulting animation, a completely unbalanced omission.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 974

    A coordinated genrush should not be required to beat a killer. A survivor, which can be a single solo player, should feel like their time and effort invested should be able to thwart off the killer to a limited degree. A good deathslinger will take down any survivor instantly regardless of skill and that should not be acceptable.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,080

    Just curious, you thought Billy and nurse didn't need any nerfs, but huntress and deathslinger do? A good nurse will take down any survivor regardless of skill as well.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 974

    I might not have a problem with deathslinger if they nerfed him to have an animation of lifting his gun. Huntress needs her hitboxes fixed and a cooldown and I might be ok with her.

    How often do you see a really good nurse? Once a month.

    How often do you see a Huntress wiping the floor with ease? Every day. She's too powerful and convenient.

  • SkeletalEliteSkeletalElite Member Posts: 988

    I know you weren't asking me, but I think nurse prior to her nerf was OP and needed to be toned down, but is in a good spot now.

    Billy nerf was completely unnecessary he only needed addon changes.

    My main problem with these killers is their lack of fun back and forth interaction between the killer and the survivor in the chase. The chase is literally what this game is about. Having a killer that is too oppressive in chase or too weak at chase is a bad design. Even if a killer is an oppressive chaser but can still be beaten by a good team by strategies that involve making the chase as boring as possible while ending the game as fast as possible, they're still badly designed because you have a killer that encourages avoidance of what makes the game enjoyable. Similar applies to killer who is too weak in chase. Might be fun for the survivor, but without much room to play with, it's very boring for the killer.

    Billy didn't fit in that by any means but nurse did prior to her nerf. Post nerf it's still possible for a REALLY good nurse to fit that, but that's such a minority of players that it's not a significant problem.

    Deathslinger requires nowhere near the same degree of mastery and I think the slowdown/delay huntress has makes her fine except for iri head.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,080

    Yeah, I agree, nurse was extremely busted before the nerf, but I am just questioning Sluzzys logic, because it doesn't make sense to me. Deathslinger is much harder to play than huntress, because of how much more precise you have to be, and the fact he has to reload often, (provided, you aren't just faking your power, that takes no skill, and I agree that needs a nerf), but huntress has a higher skill cap, because of her range, and how hard hitting cross map hatchets it, in my opinion. Also, I agree Billy only needed add-on changes, the nerf was unjustified.

  • BigTimeGamerBigTimeGamer Member Posts: 1,645

    The forums think if you want a killer to be counterable then that must mean you want them to be an M1 killer who is extremely weak

    the amount of hyperbole is insane

  • SloppyKnockoutSloppyKnockout Member Posts: 1,505

    Dropping pallets early isn't a counterplay - he can shoot over them and put you into deep wounds. Spreading out isn't a counterplay because a killer can only chase one person at a time regardless. Unless they are Bubba/Oni.

    So that leaves your 3rd option. "Move unpredictably". aka - guess, based on him spamming M2 to zone you into a position where he'll only miss if he sucks at shooting. That's your cOuNTeRpLaY.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 1,089
    edited September 22
    • I specifically said dropping pallets early "while injured". Even if he hits you over a pallet he often can't reel you in from behind it to get the down. (P.S. Scott Jund also specifically mentioned this tactic as one of the things you can do.)
    • Spreading out is a counterplay that happens to work against most killers, but in particular it works even better against 110% movement speed killers like Deathslinger
    • My third point was "use terrain and move unpredictably". Using terrain isn't "guessing" any more than knowing optimal routes in loops is "guessing".
  • CalamityJaneCalamityJane Member Posts: 487
    edited September 22

    Definitely. Playing Deathslinger is the best way to learn to counter one. You recognise those points where the Slinger is most likely to shoot at you; when you're heading towards a window or pallet, running along a long wall. That's where as survivor it's your job to be less predictable so that he either misses, or doesn't feel confident to tak the shot at all.

    One miss as Deathslinger buys you a lot of ground if you just hold M1 because he HAS to reload, and he doesn't catch up as fast as other killers.

    Also it's very similar to Nurse, you have to learn to not be predictably unpredictable. Do you double back every time against a Nurse? She's gonna learn and not overshoot the blink. Do you keep trying to fake a window against Deathslinger? He's gonna learn and not shoot.

    Personally I see it more as it's a killer that you have to learn to play against specifically, the "standard" rules don't apply. It's the same as Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, etc. Most people are usually fine with that, but then Scott comes out saying "NO COUNTERPLAY" and everyone just parrots that without thinking, because now there's a reason that's entirely not their own fault to hate the killer.

  • SloppyKnockoutSloppyKnockout Member Posts: 1,505
    edited September 22
    1. You go into deepwounds anyway. You'e not down, but you're as useless as a downed person because you're on a timer.
    2. Spreading out isn't a counterplay. Again. The killer can only chase one person at a time. Whether or not you're spread out. What you're describing is generator efficiency - when the issue being discussed is his free no-skill M2 zoning ability in a chase (aka, a 1v1 situation, meaning you need to lay off the "spread out 4HEAD argument").
    3. Use Terrain and move unpredictably. Except, he can zone you to where he wants you to go (RIP using terrain). Every time you move, you're guessing whether or not he's going to shoot because he can spam his ADS, constantly, and shoot instantly at any given time.

    Your points make no logical sense.

    This isn't even about opinion - it's actual fact. Go watch Scott's video. He even did the math, down to the milisecond. If you think any of that is "cOuNtErPlAy", and if it's worked for you, every Deathslinger you've faced has sucked. The killer sucking isn't you countering the killer. It's just the killer being bad.

    Contact @ScottJund, ask him to set up a playdate with you and Zubat's Deathslinger. Try your CoUntErPlAy with him. Money down you won't, both because you know your logic is broken, and because you're terrified of being embarassed; and believe me, it would be an embarassment.

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