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Scott and otz on ds vs pop.



  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    Yeah, I get so infuriated when people defend DS by saying it isn't anti tunnel, I'm glad Scott addressed these points, because god damn, those arguments are flawed.

  • CallmehandsomeCallmehandsome Member Posts: 529

    You don't need to be top tier 1% to know how to repair generators. I've had multiple solo games when you actually get good team and killer got dominated because every survivor knew how to repair gens efficiently, then the killer accused us random solos for being SWF

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,471

    Yeah because the alternative is that when there is no obsession killers feel more free to tunnel/camp and that is an issue in itself.

    DS should create some type of choice for killers who would otherwise take advantage of both of those two built in mechanics.

  • gibblywibblywoogibblywibblywoo Member Posts: 3,773

    Simple solution. Rework DS to be truly anti-tunnel. Always have an obsession to make both the killer and survivors play more wary of obsession based perks. All around more fair and would still discourage tunneling.

  • supersonic853supersonic853 Member Posts: 4,083

    They Are both saying ds should actually prevent actual tunneling and not punish someone for downing people quickly. I could go on a hook spree and get hit by ds after hooking 2 others. I didnt tunnel but i got hit. What they are suggesting is make it true anti tunnel and not some ######### you to your Momentum perk because old mettle of man did that and it was stupid.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,977

    Only the first is a (very conditional) downside. The other three are not downsides. 2-3 are conditions, and the fourth is a method to try and play around it.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,471


    So you think that every time you down people too quickly means the killer actually playing “optimal”?

    Camping a survivor and forcing others to trade is not playing optimal, it is taking advantage of a built in mechanic which forces survivors to make risky plays. Plays which would not be able to do, would those perks not exist.

    I mean their whole argument would make more sense if DS was strictly an anti tunnel perk which it isn’t. The punishment is you didn’t play around the perk. Much like when you get camped and actually tunneled because of no obsession in the match.

  • supersonic853supersonic853 Member Posts: 4,083

    Hmmm To play around ds i slug right. What do survivors have? Oh yeah its a perk called unbreakable isnt it? Also they can just jump in a locker.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,471


    Dont worry if they get up down them again, your only timer is their dying state bar.


  • supersonic853supersonic853 Member Posts: 4,083

    Oh Then what do they have? A perk called soul guard which is another second chance perk? Damn these survivors have everything.

  • skarsgutsskarsguts Member Posts: 179

    Otz is just saying that an obsession doesn't allow you to tunnel. People actually like this guy? Wow.

  • supersonic853supersonic853 Member Posts: 4,083
    edited September 2020

    Hes saying a obsession even being in the game forces you to slow your momentum because you can hook 2 survivors and still get stunned by a ds which then makes you lose up to 40 seconds of time (even longer if the survivors a god looper) another anti momentum perk was MoM which was horrible. Also hes one of the better players.

  • skarsgutsskarsguts Member Posts: 179

    No, he didn't mention anything about a second survivor. "Killers have to be mindful anytime someone goes down too quickly after an unhook" i.e. I can't put this survivor back on the hook after downing them 10 seconds after their last hook.

    "He's one of the better players" is extremely debatable. This community might be a little better if people didn't praise streamers and their opinions.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    I wouldn't really compare DS to Pop goes the Weasel. I'd say this nerf to Pop is a shadow buff to Cheryl's perk Repressed Alliance. Repressed Alliance currently locks a generator for thirty seconds. With current pop, a killer might have to wait but has a good chance to pop the gen still. With the reduced timer, Repressed Alliance can lock a gen for all but 15 seconds of Pop goes the Weasel. That gives a smaller window to the killer. At least that's my suspicion. Though my concern with this nerf is how much time do you get in Tier 1 and Tier 2? Not everyone has their perks up to Tier 3. If it's as it is current, 25 seconds in Tier 1 isn't really enough time. If it's 35 seconds, then that's not a huge reduction.

    DS is a bit more complicated. It's more comparable to NoED. Though I'd say DS is still stronger on account of NoED being able to be removed before it even does anything. But both exist as a sort of incentive for the other side to not rush their objective. I'm sure some killers never tunnel, and they still get affected by DS. Happened to me just yesterday. I left the hook, did not come back, chased someone else, then found the survivor who got unhooked sitting on a generator. He wouldn't leave it for anything. I picked him up, got DS'ed and he finished the gen in my face as I waited for the stun to end. There was pretty much nothing I could do. Of course NoED has the advantage of not notifying the survivor that its in the match. While Killers have some sort of indictator there is no DS. So it's sort of a trade off.

    If you're going to nerf DS you mess with the balance of the game in a significant way. You can't just cut the timer or put on conditions. (I think that would turn it less into an anti-tunneling perk and more of a bully-the-killer perk because most people just wouldn't run it unless they intentionally wanted to bully the killer with it. Which in turn means more tunneling because you'd have more games without obsessions). If you want to nerf DS, you have to incentivize the killer not to tunnel in some way. That might mean giving a buff and a debuff to survivors coming off the hook. Maybe give them the haste status effect by default, and a repair penalty for one minute. This would also reward the killer for completing their objective by slowing generators down a little more. It could be a 50% repair penalty, giving them more incentive to heal up instead of sitting on a generator. Before changing DS, I think something has to be done to put a natural anti-tunneling ability (something with a little give and take) in the game. I think that'd also cut down on the number of DS's we see in regular game play because people wouldn't feel the need to run it.

  • LmronbyLmronby Member Posts: 339

    They probably won't; these guys act like there's a gun against their head when it comes to discussing what the community wants to talk about; and restricts it only to like 20-30 Questions for a Livestream. Pre-picked Questions By Them.

  • ArtickArtick Member Posts: 618

    The obvious exception you guys ignore just because it doesn't fit your agenda:

    The killer is in control of who uses ds and who does not. If you do not tunnel of hook and go do literally anything else DS doesn't come into play. It's your choice to trigger DS or not. The same thing can not be said about POP.

    And before you come with the "I hooked another survivor and when I came back he still had DS" bs lie:

    If the forums thought us one thing is that killers say chases are too long and at least one gen pops before they can catch someone. A gen takes 80 seconds, so a chase is longer than 80 seconds according to killer mains. For you to find another survivor, chase them, hit them 2 times, hook them, come back to the other survivor, chase him, down and pick up again in less than 60 seconds is impossible if chases are that long that you always lose one gen.

    So how it is? Are your chases so long that gens need to be nerfed? Or aren't they? Because you can't have it both ways. You can't tell me you lose one gen per chase but at the same time you manage to chase and down 2 survivors in less than 60 seconds in order for DS to proc. Seems like a lame excuse for tunneling and not wanting to admit it.

  • Chicagopimp2019Chicagopimp2019 Member Posts: 458

    I was with you until you said DS has a hard skill check. Define hard skill check. It has a very generous skill check zone and the reason people usually miss it is because so much is riding on it. If the great skill check zone was the same size for gens, hex ruin would have never been nerfed.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,446

    The key is the reason they mentioned

    it wound up being a little too lenient and allowed Killers to find and kick a generator at their leisure, often after chasing and downing a different Survivor

    You can say exactly the same about DS to make a valid argument to nerf it. One minute is simply a lot

  • ElementDoomElementDoom Member Posts: 166

    Inflating swf mmr is the worst solution possible. Good killers don't enjoy going against it anymore than the average player. Doesn't matter how well you play you can't negate comms.

    If you started punishing killers for being good at the game by sticking 4 man swf groups into 90% of they're lobbies I guarantee you most "high level" killers would leave the game. Then it's back to business as usual with sweat groups bullying purple ranks and all you accomplished was running off part of the playerbase.

  • FattyclownFattyclown Member Posts: 73

    Nice fan fiction

    1) Wow so detrimental...against meme builds

    2) It is the reason for the very existence of the perk

    3) Difficult skill check? Are you joking right?

    4) You can be slugged for 60 seconds where

    - you can be saved by your partner

    - get up on your own in case it doesn't happen with Unbreakable

    - stand up in the face of the killer waiting for your Unbreakable with Soul Guard

    Multiple downsides If the survivor plays worse than a brainless monkey surely 👍

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    On a related note on Otz's stream now and both he and his partner say PH doesn't need the nerf.

  • UMCorianUMCorian Member Posts: 521
    edited September 2020

    If its goal is to actually be an Anti-Tunnel perk, I think when a survivor is capable of doing a DS, the killer should get a notification. It doesn't have to be specific, but "Decisive Strike" should pop up on your Hud, letting you know someone on the field is capable of doing it. Any semi-smart killer will be able to figure out who has it. That way, at least if you slot it, OK, I have to respect it... but ALL Survivors don't benefit from this 5th slightly less powerful "phantom perk" that every killer has to play around even if you don't have it.

    Although counter argument to my original argument, that would just make it go from something almost every survivor runs to something every survivor NEEDS to run. Without exception.

    So meh, I don't really know how you address it other than nerf it into the ground... which even as a Killer main, I'm not sure that's best for the game.

  • Atsuka_AnarchyAtsuka_Anarchy Member Posts: 51

    How on Earth can you compare Apples to Bananas?? My goodness, people will find any reason to complain about other perks.

  • handfulofrainhandfulofrain Member Posts: 317

    That's just you. Tell it to the tens (hundreds, thousands, whatever) of people who jump in my face after they get off the hook.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246


    Hey man,

    one thing that really bugged me about your video is that you completely ignored the fact that the killer has to earn pgtw with a hook and the survivor gets ds for free. Just really asking, do you think that actually should be considered when comparing the 2 perks regarding the impact of the perks they have on the match?

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,471
    edited September 2020


    Yeah survivors who happen to have Soul Guard might get out of that sticky situation. Still A) A Hex is required. B) A heal is required.

    Still doesn't justify how your ability to slug 'indefinitely' is not even a perk, It's a built-in mechanic. Imagine if the game was actually balanced like other games where killers aren't allowed to do that (RE) and where the game sends them back to where they spawned if they are on the ground for too long. Or if after sometime you are allowed to pick yourself up without a perk.

    But go ahead and pop off about how survivors have everything.

  • woundcowboywoundcowboy Member Posts: 1,122

    All games balance around good players, welcome to 2020. If DS were removed from the game, it would make no difference for Johnny casual playing with his friends on the weekend.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,471


    Hey, when you run out of material, just make up dumb ideas.

    Seriously though. Who says stuff like that?? LOL It's like saying "I won't use my DS because it's too early game and the killer hasn't had any kills." 😂

  • judge_fistjudge_fist Member Posts: 114

    Agreed the downsides are so minor it's almost irrelevant. Those of us that play both sides at high rank 1k+ hours get it. That said I'll still be using the meta for both sides. Can't keep me down. 🤘

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