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Rip PH

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  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,696
    edited September 2020

    The PTB hasn't even released yet. I don't remember Ruin being a PR ######### up either; the forums are not representative of the player base as a whole. We're generally people who care too much.

    This narrative of releasing strong killers that they then nerf into the ground doesn't seem based in fact. Let's think about the last few killers.

    • If I recall correctly Oni had a tweak for using Demon Dash that was aimed at making turning on PC and console more similar, but he's been a very strong killer throughout.
    • Deathslinger hasn't had many changes either way and is in a Legion-esque bad place right now (not that strong, yet unfun to play against). Still, he's never been perceived as strong, so I don't think people are buying him for that reason. He probably just looks fun.
    • Pyramid Head so far hasn't been changed much after launch (aside from not being able to see cages now to prevent tunnelling) and the devs have stated they don't intend to nerf him here. He's a very strong killer and should still be very strong after the proposed changes.
    • Blight was heavily buffed over the PTB. While it remains to see how strong he is, I think he's going to be mid tier. He clearly doesn't have a broad perception of being strong, though, so I also don't expect people are buying him for that reason. He probably also just looks fun.

    What was the last killer to get a big nerf after launch? I seriously can't remember one. Maybe Spirit, since she now has a vault animation, she had some add-ons nerfed, and she had collision removed? That'd be a bad example regardless since she's still one of the best killers in the game, though.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    No no no, he's dead.

    Here's a video that explains it better


    The attack is just a very poor attack. If they improved the turning and speed it might have been a trade off, changing the cooldown slightly does nothing.

    Watch the BOTB finals. Players with 6000 hours missing the shots again and again and again because good players can avoid it so easily. Even the hosts saying it's not worth using the attack and you might as well just cheese it for the confirmed hit.

    He might be ok at green ranks where survivors just run in a straight line but he's going to be garbage against good players.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,696

    You say that, but you would be silly not to use this strategy as PH. I don't care if you're a good killer or a bad one; a borderline free hit is a borderline free hit, and anyone who's playing to win should be taking advantage of that.

    But yes, please, let's do the same for Deathslinger. I'm thrilled PH is getting these changes.

    If they clean up Deathslinger and they make Legion not so goddamned annoying I don't think there will be a killer in the game that I don't have fun playing against. Well, maybe Freddy. He needs a nerf to his snares.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,696
    edited September 2020

    Zoning is the opposite of mindgaming lol; that's the issue. It's a lose/lose situation for the survivor. The only way they don't take a hit is if the PH messes up or if they have Dead Hard. It's also hard to talk about whether or not he should have been given a larger buff to compensate when we have no idea how big the changes are even going to be. Let's wait for the PTB.

    As for the perks, do you have any complaints with the changes they did make (other than Pop, I guess)? They're not going to be able to fix every perk in the game all at once, but I'm glad they've been making gradual improvements. I'm a fan of all of the changes they announced.

  • DCashDCash Member Posts: 170

    Lol at using the BOTB as a frame of reference for skill. Most of the really good players didn't even bother with the tourney. The majority of the those players actually in it were suspect. I was honestly amazed how bad most of them were.

    PH needs this change. It will force people to use his power intelligently instead of waiting for free hits which is brainless. He will be fine against good players unless YOU are bad using him.

  • noctis129noctis129 Member Posts: 941

    Oh yeah. I gotta use up all my mori before the Devs Nerf that too.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    I wrote a haiku

    Used to be much fun

    Rivers of salty tears

    Now he becomes crap

  • lreynalreyna Member Posts: 3

    Nah, this will weed out the poor PH killer mains. This whole post seems like it came from a killer perpetually stuck in white/green ranks.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,249

    Ok watched the video. He won't be dead but maybe a change to his turning would be nice.

    The 6000 hour thing doesn't mean much tbh. I've got 3000+ hours but doesn't mean I'm great with every killer. I could be a worse Deathslinger than someone with 500 hours. They could just be bad Pyramid Heads.

    If they need to give him another slight buff after ptb they will based off of tthe feedback.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    I very much doubt they will change him in that way to be honest. People have given this feedback since day 1 along with survivors complaining about the lose/lose situation. BHVR has had months to listen to feedback and they've made up their mind that they will address some but not the rest.

    If they had any intention of changing his attack based on feedback they've had months to prepare for it but nothing. It's not on the cards.

    Otz thinks he might be worse to play against tbh because now he might just spam his POTD more. I disagree though because I don't think the cooldown will be much shorter at all.

  • greekfire774greekfire774 Member Posts: 170

    Im pretty sure they're only decreasing his cool down for punishment on missed attacks. Not ones where you connect the hit.

  • DwinchesterDwinchester Member Posts: 961

    Oni got gutted, then made tolerable after a few months. Hangman's trick and one of deathslinger crappy perks got nerfed. Blight compound 21. Now pyramid head.

    Dozens of people got banned, every streamer was calling out their bias, mods were removing every ruin thread. It was a nightmare because the devs told the truth for once.

  • RizeAkiRizeAki Member Posts: 1,209

    Yeah this was not the right direction on a change I could get a cool down if it was actually a strong ability that wasn’t massively easy to dodge.

  • SnakeSound222SnakeSound222 Member Posts: 4,467

    We don’t have any numbers yet, so he might not be dead. If he is dead though, then it’s almost guaranteed that Deathslinger and Spirit are next. They often get lumped together with PH when it comes to Killers that “need” a nerf.

  • Mak0Mak0 Member Posts: 250

    Remember when they announced PH was losing the ability to see cages and people were saying Pyramid head was gutted? LMAO you’re all overreacting

  • SloppyKnockoutSloppyKnockout Member Posts: 1,505

    I never said not to use it. You absolutely would be silly to purposely gimp yourself by not doing the most effective thing you can do.

    I simply said that spamming your M2 for free zoning with zero mind game takes no skill, and only GOOD killers will persevere.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    Yeah, but it is so easy to avoid his power, that when you aren't in animation lock, you won't get hits against good survivors. He is frozen in place when attacking, and there is a big red marker for where he is going to shoot. He needs more buffs in compensation for his zoning nerf.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,249

    Yea someone said about making his turning better which I didn't really mind.

  • it is not a bad change. If the new recovery rate can be equal to normal attack, it would be acceptable to the nerf.

  • thepyramidheadthepyramidhead Member Posts: 59

    So am I late to my funeral

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    That only hurt people that wanted to camp cages.

    As someone who plays PH I’m telling you this is the nail in the coffin. It hands control of the chase to the survivor.

    They compare him to Huntress....except hatchets are infinitely better than POTD. If POTD was on par with a hatchet then people wouldnt be complaining as much, but that attack isnt receiving any buffs other than the cooldown in which theres not a chance they make it any shorter than an M1 whiff and an M1 whiff can still allow survivors to make another loop.

    They compare him to Demo but Demo is trash, besides he can zone too but the only reason nobody complains is because he’s a very weak killer. Hard to be frustrated by a killer when you’re tbagging from the exit gates.

    Its funny because survivors will still complain. Theres a few minor situations in the game where the survivor may be trapped at a pallet, the corners of lerys for example. Just wait until PH spams his power over and over and over again for the hit, survivors will be calling for another nerf.

  • crixus006crixus006 Member Posts: 374

    I don't understand why he needs a nerf he was neither strong nor weak he was an average killer and with this he will simply become a killer trash and we will stop seeing him in games, as a demogorgon, clown ...

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    and yet nothing has to be done to weed out the weak survivor mains. Can't last in a chase? bring sprint burst/dead hard for free time, abuse badly designed areas of maps. No awareness? bring spine chill. Not very good at the game? just have your swf carry you then join in at the tbagging at the exit.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    That's what Otz thinks too. PH is already rare and will disappear. I'm already ditching him because I can tell how this will go. He wasn't even that strong as you say.

    Alternative is people are theorizing that hes just going to spam his m2 now at loops over and over again and survivors will have something new to complain about.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,696

    Gutted how? Oni is very strong and has been very strong since launch. What did they change other than his turning speed in demon dash?

    Hangman's Trick got a substantial buff when Sabo happened. It also got a buff shortly after it was originally released to affect bear traps too. It has never been nerfed. Are you talking about PTB versions of the perk? If so, the point of the PTB is to test the perks. Of course there are going to be changes. This was also years after Pig released, so I don't see how this has anything to do with tricking people into buying DLC.

    I am not aware of any changes to Deathslinger's perks. There's also nothing on the wiki. I'm assuming you're talking about the PTB, which was never live, and which is therefore not selling DLC. They release patch notes before the DLC is even available for purchase.

    Blight's compound 21 was OP as hell, especially for its rarity. It needed a nerf, which is why it got one. I guarantee you that not a single person bought the most recent DLC specifically because they wanted to use compound 21, and also now regret their decision because it was nerfed.

    Pyramid head is not getting nerfed. They have explicitly said this is not intended to be a nerf. He's in theory just going to be more fun for both sides.

    I don't even know what you're talking about with the bans, streamer complaints of bias, or devs telling the truth for once. Did a streamer accuse them of this bait and switch scheme? That would at least explain why so many people on the forums keep parroting this.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536
    edited September 2020

    @notstarboard

    "Pyramid head is not getting nerfed. They have explicitly said this is not intended to be a nerf. He's in theory just going to be more fun for both sides."

    We call this "spin". They say it's not a nerf and it's more fun for both sides yet with 3 months of feedback they've listened to survivor feedback and not killer feedback. It's 100% intended to be more fun for survivors, hence why overrall it's going to be a nerf.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,696

    Good killers are good at killing... meaning they will know this technique gives them an advantage, and they will use it. Good killers are certainly capable of making more skillful plays with Pyramid Head, but they don't need to, so they won't.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,696

    Stop with the needless killer main/survivor main tribalism, they of course listen to everyone's feedback. BHVR has every incentive to make both survivor and killer fun to play, and to make the game balanced overall. They obviously would not get there by only taking feedback from the survivor side.

    PH is currently fun enough as killer, but miserable to play against as survivor unless the killer is a potato. Zoning is a lose/lose, so all you can do is hope the killer is bad. That is why they are getting negative feedback from survivor. The feedback was justified, and Behaviour was right to listen to it as they should all feedback.

    The problem is, and has always been, the lack of counterplay to zoning. The problem is not his strength, so the solution is not making him weaker. Their proposed solution is to increase counterplay to zoning while buffing POTD so as to make it feel less punishing and to balance out the other nerf. That is a perfect solution in theory, and we don't even have numbers on the changes yet. Just play the PTB in two days, keep an open mind, and submit feedback if it's bad. Easy.

    Also

    "I don't understand why he needs a nerf he was neither strong nor weak he was an average killer and with this he will simply become a killer trash and we will stop seeing him in games"

    "That's what Otz thinks too. PH is already rare and will disappear."

    ?

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    You say they listen to feedback but only one sides feedback is being implemented. There is plenty on the survivor side that makes the low tier killers not fun to play, exhaustion perks and bad map design for example leading to long chases that take no skill on the survivor side.

    When I quoted Otz I was referring to the part about PH disappearing. He thinks that might happen. Also yeah A tier is strong but not super oppressive.

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