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Don’t nerf Undying

Please it’s finally the perk that makes other Hex perks worth a try. You no longer feel bad taking a totem like Devour or Lullaby and having it disappear 30 seconds into the game because now you get another chance.

I trust that unlike all these content creators you can see that the problem is with Ruin and how it works, not Undying. Why should Undying be nerfed when its balanced with every other Hex perk? Ruin is the only problematic perk.

All the other hexes either...

  • require the killer to gain tokens which all get reset upon cleansing (Devour, Lullaby, Third seal)
  • Do nothing all game unless the survivor chooses to cleanse them (Retri, HG)
  • Lose strength everytime a totem is taken out (Thrill)

Even NOED isn’t that big of an issue because survivors have all game to spot Undying and cleanse it. How often does a totem stand 5 gens without being spotted?

We all know this combo is getting changed and everyone is throwing Undying under the bus to keep Ruin but I think Undying is a great idea and I think if you just change Ruin so it works in a different way then Undying would be fine.

If you took Ruin out of the game then Undying would disappear overnight, only to be seen 1 in 100 games when someone wanted to try Devour or Lullaby. We all know that’s true. At the moment people are only taking it because of Ruin. So I don’t think such a niche perk should get gutted.

Comments

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    In addition here are some suggestions for Ruin.

    Causes generators to regress at default speed (1/4)

    Everytime you gain a token it increases the regression rate by 50%

    Base: 100%

    1 Token: 150%

    2 tokens: 200%

    3 tokens: 250%

    4 tokens: 300%

    5 tokens: 350%

    So at base you lose 100% of what you have now until you get 2 tokens, but then you have the chance to get 150% extra regression over what you have now. Considering with Devour you can kill at 5 tokens its not OP.

    Naturally tokens reset upon cleansing and this solves the Ruin/Undying OP issue everyone is complaining about.

    Alternatively but probably not as good is the Thrill of the Hunt approach...

    Hex Ruin: For every totem remaining on the map gain 50% to regression speed

    5 totems (start of trial): 250% regression

    4 totems: 200% regression

    3 totems: 150% regression

    2 totems: 100% regression

    1 totem: 50% regression

    So it starts out a tiny bit stronger than it is now but if it does come back it’s coming back weaker and weaker everytime. This in addition to its current counterplay where if you take out Undying first and then Ruin the effects are instantly gone.

    This is if you want to change the undying/Ruin combo which I assume you will.

    Changes like this allow survivors to feel like they’re making progress when Ruin is cleansed but respawns which I think is the issue they have now. It also allows Undying to stay as it is which is good for devour, lullaby and even third seal.

  • arcnkdarcnkd Member Posts: 446

    Undying and Ruin both are perfectly fine. The problem is Survivors - they don't want to adapt or change their meta-playstyle at all to accommodate the increase focus in doing totems; and the increasedd caution to be taken in case Undying is there because the aura reading. They want to, literally, continue just "Oh look a totem" while running around; run up to it and break it; and go on with their generators or killer-trolling.

    With Undying and other hexes now, their precious 'trolling time' is taking a hit to actively look for totems and so they're all throwing a giant fit about it. They're not used to having to actively work on two objectives and not just ######### with the killer the entire match with their clicky-clicky, teabagging annoyances.

  • Chicagopimp2019Chicagopimp2019 Member Posts: 458

    I am finding that my biggest frustration with Undying when I play survivor isn't the hex totems getting transferred but rather that stupid aura detection within 2 meters. I don't have a problem with hunting and cleansing totems, but I've had a couple of games with high mobility killers where they are on me the second I start cleansing. I would be more than willing to compromise by just removing the aura detection.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,869

    I've said this before but honestly the only thing I feel like they need to do about it is to take away the aura reading from undying and just give it to thrill of the hunt.

    That way hex undying still keeps it's main benefit of becoming totem insurance just in case your insert x totem here gets broken which makes it good for things like ruin, haunted grounds and noed basically hex perks that don't require stacking


    Thrill of the hunt becomes the ultimate defensive totem hlas not only will you be able to see the auras but the extra slowdown will make it even more difficult to break totems. This also worst case allows you to increase the aura reading to slightly longer than 2 seconds. This makes it a perfect totem to bring when you're using perks that require you to stack like devour hope or huntress lullaby

  • xEaxEa Member Posts: 2,973

    It has nothing to do with survivors not adapting. Those arguments are always silly, i mean i could also say that to killer about DS and Unbreakable. so please stop that.

    About topic: It takes to long to get them out of the way. Undying should have 2 tokens and loose 1 token for every cleansed totem. Games where all 5 totems have to be cleansed to get rid of ruin are almost unwinable.

  • SlashstreetboySlashstreetboy Member Posts: 1,811

    Imagine thinking Ruin+Undying is op considering there are quite a bunch ot tools that help in dealing with totems. The only Killer I run this combo currently on is Oni. From what I can tell so far, yes it is strong but it´s also highly inconsistend still. There have been many matches where Undying goes first only to be followed by ruin not even a minute later. At least it makes running ruin worth it for the time being.

    I agree with @arcnkd here. It seems there are quite a bunch of players that are hellbent on never leaving the "full crutch combo" club and won´t even consider adapting to a shifting meta. Here, these guys : https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/194751/survivor-tier-list-based-on-how-many-second-chance-perks-they-have

    I guess to some it´s fair to stack as many 2nd chance perks as possible with Object in SWF and still not be threatened by any mechanic a Killer can bring. Smh.

  • DzeikorDzeikor Member Posts: 704

    If undying gonna be nerfed before ds I think i'm just gonna quit this game lol

  • musefanmusefan Member Posts: 345

    Dont forget, with the increase of Inner Strength users, there aren't always many dull totems to transfer ruin to anyway.

    I think Undying is fine for the most part.

    I am 50/50 on its aura reading capabilities though...

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    This is just my opinion but I think the debate about whether it is OP or not is over. With the backlash it's getting right now including killer main streamers saying it should be changed, and the fact that everyone and their mother is running it I believe change is inevitable. The question now is do you want Ruin to change or Undying?

    Listen to what killers players say about Undying and Devour or Lullaby..

    "It's useless because tokens reset"

    "It's bad because you lose all stacks when it's cleansed"

    I'm hearing that repeated over and over again. Without Ruin, Undying would become niche and only used in 1 out of 100 games. Is there really a point to nerfing a perk like that? one that people already see as weak?

    Hell you wouldn't even need to worry about aura reading because nobody would run the damn perk.

    If you adjust Ruin everything sorts itself out.

  • GodotGodot Member Posts: 806

    I think Undying is a fun perk to go against. It keeps the thrill up during the game, especially if you're solo and you cleanse say for example a Devour Hope or a Ruin that you didn't know existed yet. It makes you think "Ugh, this Killer probably has Undying and it hopped onto another totem." Even if nothing of that sort happens.

    All in all, don't nerf, remove or rework Hex: Undying, please and thank you.

    Yes, I am a Survivor main and this is my honest opinion about the perk.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    Undying needs a slight nerf. Just make it so that any revived totems revert to dull totems if Undying is cleansed. It'd still be a powerful perk to combine with hex totems, but it wouldn't be oppressive and killers would maybe actually run other stuff. Much like if we nerfed DS a bit, we'd see some different perk usage but it'd still be a strong perk.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    That would make it absolutely worthless as a perk.

    Right now there’s a 50/50 chance Undying goes first anyway in which case it does nothing. This happens to me often.

    After that I find Ruin goes, then Undying, then Ruin. This proposed change would just speed up the process and boom 2 entire perk slots gone in an instant.

    Leaving you with a totem its whole purpose. What good is the perk if your totem goes once Undying is gone? If you get 2 bad spawns its instantly game over.

    People are only taking it because there’s no downside to Ruin being cleansed. The other totem perks like Devour, Lullaby and Third Seal all have a downside that is resetting their tokens. Ruin has no downside so why not take it? If Ruin became token based trust me a lot of killers would go running back to Pop and Corrupt and ditch both Ruin and Undying.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    It'd speed up the process only a little. The perk would still be incredibly useful, but less overbearing. It could still potentially take you FOUR totems to cleanse Ruin. If you get two bad spawns, and they find Undying first, it's game over anyway.

    Making Ruin a token-based perk makes it useless on its own. There'd never be any point to running Ruin without Undying. It'd just be too weak.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    But at the moment all the other Hex perks feel that way. No point running them alone as they're too weak and bad RNG can have it gone within 30 seconds.

  • SunderMunSunderMun Member Posts: 2,791

    You...realise the issue survivors have with Undying isn't that it keeps Ruin up, but that it gives dumb levels of aura reading that survivors have no way to counter, especially if its a highly mobile killer since that means they can't even cleanse dull totems without being seen, right? There are some ridiculous wallhack builds available to killer now, and it is glorious but it does feel over the top right now.

  • adirgeforthedeadadirgeforthedead Member Posts: 290

    As a survivor main, I think Undying is fun to go against because it gives me a bit of an alternative objective.

    My only issue remains as others have mentioned with the Aura reading and I agree that specific effect should be transferred to Thrill of the Hunt instead or limit the Aura reading to active totems instead of all. It'd only be my two recommended alternatives.

    I have also encountered some bugs that are being currently abused by the community such as the cleansed Hex not losing any tokens after being transferred to another one making Devour Hope incredibly difficult to go against. So, it definitely needs some patching.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,636
    edited October 2020

    Undying is just about fine imo. The two things thing I'd change are 1) For survivors to get cursed by Undying once they touch a totem, and 2) For a totem counter to be added to the HUD. My experience with Ruin + Undying so far has been that it's devastating in solo queue but just strong against SWF. Letting people get cursed right away would let solo queue players know much earlier that Undying is up, and that repairing gens near a dull totem and such is a terrible idea.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    Some of them are, but that's a problem with those perks not with Ruin or Undying. Buff those perks, and nerf Undying slightly. It's all about risk/reward with hex Perks. Devour Hope is pretty good on its own. You get a decent spawn, and you can get 1-2 insta-downs easily. And massive slowdown as people start rushing to search for Devour Hope. Some maps have terrible totem spawn locations, but others have crazy spawn locations. Lerys, Midwich, Hawkins. With map reworks, we might see better totem spawn points since hex perks are a bigger part of the game now. Totems on Badham are pretty well hidden too. Easily got 5 tokens on Badham with Devour Hope.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    That sounds like a fair one, letting them know that Undying is there.

  • arcnkdarcnkd Member Posts: 446

    On the contrary I have done just fine in those games - the problem comes down to whether or not Survivors on your team take the time to search out the totems to do them or try to ignore them and complete as many gens as they can without having to get off of them too much. I do agree - somewhat - on totem counters as mentioned by others, but at the same time I feel like a totem counter would make Hexes even weaker than they already are because it'd be too easy to monitor totems on the Survivor's end. Sure it helps solo, but at some point the game has to quit balancing around solo-players in a multi-player game.

    As for adapting - Killers have adapted to DS and Unbreakable -- we slug you until the timer runs out on DS if we suspect you have it (and Survivors complain about it being "useless" because they don't get to use it), or we slug you and then hook you or monitor you in case we suspect Unbreakable.

  • xEaxEa Member Posts: 2,973

    I am not saying i wont have done fine aswell, but i do think it can be a really unfair perk often. Against a coordinated SWF it might not be that big of a deal in my opinon, but not everyone is playing with a group of friends. And imagine this on mid-low ranks... this must be really extremly hard to verse. They often dont even know the totem spawns very well so good luck getting rid of ruin 4 times...

  • arcnkdarcnkd Member Posts: 446
    edited October 2020

    It is powerful - like a Hex is supposed to be - but not OP levels of powerful where it needs to be nerfed. Part of this game is learning as you're playing and Undying teaches you very early to start learning the map and possible totem spawn areas (though - I think totems, generators, and hatch should be fully randomized so you can't "memorize" common locations, imo).

    If I play SWF it is most commonly just one other person; sometimes a group of 3 but very rarely if ever a group of 4. So, we're with other 2-mans or solo's and Undying is harsh but not too strong to deal with. You just have to learn - stop focusing down your generators as fast as possible because you see Ruin and start focusing on finding Ruin.

    EDIT: One strategy my irl friend employs at match start is 'tapping' the generator closest to his spawn to check if Ruin is active or not - and if it is, he immediately starts keeping his eye out for totems.

  • Starr43Starr43 Member Posts: 853

    As BS as undying and ruin can feel especially in solo.. I’m having trouble not joining the “don’t nerf undying” side.

    I’ve played against it countless times since release but literally never ran the ruin combo personally because I absolutely love Undying with Devour.. I’ve had games where they managed to get undying instead when I was at 5 stacks. Other games I’ve had 3 stacks instadowning into devour resetting and already about to get my first stack going.. and sometimes 3-4 stacks is crippling enough to completely end the game.

    Devour can still fail you with undying but I swear nothing slows a game down faster than 3+ stacks of Dhope

    I’m enjoying it while it lasts because Undying might get changed.. that or everyone will become totem hunting gods where no spawn is safe haha

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