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Otz's community balance patch

VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

Now I love Otz don't get me wrong on that aspect but I feel like the balance patch misses the mark on three aspects.


DS

Decisive strike being deactivated when on a generator or in a locker does it really defeat the main annoyance of decisive.

In fact at least in my opinion the locker tech on decisive strike was always the least irritating.

The 3 most annoying aspects that decisive strike brought were.

1) survivors being able to do objective totems and healing whilst still being under the protection ( generators is one of the suggested aspects to deactivate decisive but totems and healing still remain) if you're safe enough to heal somebody or do a totem you're not really being tunneled


2) The fact that you could still Hook other survivors but still get hit with decisive strike. It's really annoying that you could potentially be punished for downing people to efficiently


3) small pp build this point has been beaten to death I just need to mention it the thing not really explaining.


Noed

As for Noed I think it's kind of stupid to lock something that's already conditional behind more conditions.


Noed already relies on endgame and an available dull totem otem making it also rely on tokens is kind of stupid.


If you're going to make it rely on two conditions then you are definitely going to have the buff the perk up a lot more than it already is.


Balancing a condition on a condition on a restriction is one of the main reasons why furtive chase is such a bad perk.


I really don't think doing a hex version of that is a smart idea.


Undying

This is typically a gamble hex perk it can either work as insurance for your other hexes or it could be destroyed first and be useless. I think the idea of the transferred hex being removed once Undying is destroyed is bad

Honestly the only thing I really think needs to be changed about this perk is the Aura Reading to be transfer to something like thrill of the hunt instead.

Turn thrill of the hunt into the ultimate total defender you see people's Aura and they cleanse it slower.

Let Undying remain as an insurance perk. Both Undying and thrill of the hunt will protect totems.

Thrill of the hunt could be used if you want to actively defend your totem whilst Undying is a gamble but it will give you a passive protection that you don't really have to influence

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Comments

  • SlashstreetboySlashstreetboy Member Posts: 1,308

    Disagree on this one. My personal issue with DS is that if a Survivor gets unhooked after the gens got done they are guaranteed to escape if they still have it up and the Killer has no super-mobility. Slugging can help there, but if they could use DS no matter what...darn, guess I got outplayed by a perk alone. I really hope that if and when DS gets balanced they bear this scenario in mind.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    Yeah the decisive strike change doesn't really stop it's me issues. It still retains its you can't touch me for a minute problematic quality.

    Noed can enable some bad playstyles but his change isn't really what's best for the perk

  • BitingSeaBitingSea Member Posts: 166

    Bad Playstyles are part of every video game, BHVR won't embrace it. Notice how they haven't fixed Forever Freddy? How keys remain the same? How moris are not changed? Why is NOED singled out here? Let players play how they want, that seems to be BHVR's look on things. Plus it's a hex perk anyway, if survivors are efficient then NOED will be cleansed before it existed

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 2,852

    On DS, I think the locker thing is definitely not the least irritating. I'm happy when I have no other targets and the survivor grants me a DS clearance for minimal effort, without even attempting to chase. But as soon as there is a locker near a gen, this really gets annoying. Either stare at the locker for a minute, grant a minute of gen progress for free or be forced to eat the stun.

    I have totally no problem with NOED tbh. I more have a problem when a killer has a really bad game and my random teammates just mindlessly finish all gens. If noone is on death hook, 99 all 3 gens if you want or go do totems. These are normally the games where a bad like 3-4 hook killer game turns into a 3-4k. This is what grinds me, but I blame that on the team, not on NOED. And when the killer does well and has beaten the team up with only 3 perks, and THEN gets NOED in endgame as well, then... well played. I guess I give you that kill and try to get out. This is then one of the games when I think to myself "who called it a crutch perk?" If it is really used as crutch for that specific player, then you have plenty of time to counter it.

    In general, I saw the stream, or most of it. He has very good knowledge on the game, so there were a lot of good changes he suggested. But on some points I also thought, he is on a streak right now, just shooting as fast as possible on targets where I thought "that topic just might need a bit more time than 10 seconds". Like remove T3 once you got a tombstone kill? Yay, doesn't fix the problem for that guy. And right after that, currently the other survivors know what's going on and will have a plan how to counter it, like forcing the down by locker or just sticking on gens, to block the mori ability. But that change simply doesn't solve the problem and makes the addon useless for the killer as well

  • SonzaishinaiSonzaishinai Member Posts: 2,457

    Prime example of why people shouldn't automaticly agree with streamers.

    After all they still only have the experience of one person. No matter how many hours they have.

    Just shows once again a general rule of thumb. Gamers =/= developers

  • BwstedBwsted Member Posts: 235

    I used to think for the longest time that the locker DS was an issue, but I have since changed my mind. If other deactivation conditions are introduced, then the locker thing should actually stay. Stress on the fact that it should stay only if there are other deactivation conditions.

    If DS is to be emphasized on the anti-tunnel aspect, then the survivor should have an option to present an insta tunneler between the choice of eating the DS or leaving, instead of ending up being a slug or being chased until the timer runs out. The other deactivation conditions will make it so the locker play isn't abusable, because if the survivor does anything productive, then they lose their DS.

    Working on a gen should obviously deactivate DS. Being healead or self-healing should too, but only if the heal is completed, to avoid situations where the killer instantly comes back or where a heal was simply tapped and it instantly deactivates DS. Sure, that means they can 99 the heal, but it also means the killer knows ds is likely still in play. Starting healing someone else. Cleansing a totem, but only if the cleanse is completed (to give a chance to inner strength users). Starting a sabo. Unhooking someone but not uncaging since cAgEs aRen'T hOoKS and HooK pERks dOn'T WOrk. Successful pallet or flashlight rescues. These should all deactivate DS. Mending shouldn't. There are also a bunch of killer specific interactions that should be looked at individually, such as snapping out of it or disarming traps.

    DS shouldn't be tied to the chase interaction, or we would have the analogous of old moonwalking Legioni all over again.

    It's not like tunneling gets disabled when the gens are completed, does it? There would be no logic in disabling the counter to that either.

    Saying you get outplayed by a perk would be like saying they get outplayed by your basekit if you insta down them off the hook and their DS is gone because of the gens.

    The fact that they can escape at that point is simply a consequence that there's no other objective for them. Tough luck, but you can't win them all. What it could be done is to add deactivation conditions so their ds can't make someone else as well escape in that situation.

  • SlashstreetboySlashstreetboy Member Posts: 1,308

    You missed my point. If the timer never stopped while slugged there is literally nothing a Killer could do in that scenario. Just watch them crawl out for 2 minutes, seems really dumb to me. As of now it can be countered by slugging, which seems fair. As Killer there should be some options in an endgame situation.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 3,424
    edited October 8

    I'm just going to go ahead and say that I find locker DS to be the single most annoying and overpowered thing anyone can do with DS alone. There is literally no counterplay and, in my experience, it always follows a short dash from a now-progressed gen or healed teammate. It is the most unfair thing in the entire game, including Nurse/Sprit/Slinger/Hag/PH/Freddy gameplay.

  • BwstedBwsted Member Posts: 235

    I might have very well missed when you said it, but as far as I'm concerned I agree that the timer shouldn't stop when slugged. You get no objection from me about that.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    If the implement DS deactivating when you you get on a generator or fully heal or cleanse a totem.

    The locker take will be pointless II a survivor touch is a gen or heals they forfeit their chance to decisive strike. If they want have their minute of safety they legitimately have to do nothing. ( even though I do feel like if you hook somebody else defensive strike should also deactivate)

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    Crutch or not my main problem with the suggested to change is that he is putting way too much conditional elements on one perk.

    1) you have to reach endgame

    2) there has to be a dull totem available

    3) you could only use it as long as still limited tokens are available

    4) if the totem destroyed you lose it


    Now what makes this worse is hitting an injured survivor can also take away your token meaning depending on how the game goes you could potentially end up feeding your tokens without getting any value from it.


    If you're going to make it a token limited token based system then it cannot be a hex.

    If you're going to keep it as a hex perk that will only spawn at endgame if a dull Totem is present. The token system isn't going to work

    If you want to somehow have it both ways the benefits need to be way stronger than the one he is proposing.

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 117

    I can agree with DS being deactivated for End Game. However, I do think there needs to be a little more for the rest. I'm okay with survivors losing DS if they tap a gen or finish an action, such as healing another teammate or cleansing a totem. (Granted, I do think that it's kinda dumb that a Survivor can just tap a gen during chase to stop regression when a killer has to stop and do an animation for it when not runninh Ruin, but that's another discussion.)

    However, I think DS shouldn't necessarily be disabled from hopping into a locker. For example, if a Survivor is running Q&Q and hop into a locker in order to get off a Head-On stun because that's the exhaustion perk they're running and they're trying to make more distance, then I don't think they should lose DS just from doing that. However, if they get grabbed from a locker, they should lose it imho.

    As for a heal taking away DS, I think it should be situational. For example, I can get the argument of something like red insta heal taking away DS, even if I don't agree with it- however, if you heal up mid-chase from something like Secondwind, then I don't think you should lose DS- since you can't stop that perk from activating, and it's already a pain to get going.

    Point is, I can agree with a DS nerf- but I can't agree with perks that are already bad getting worse because of a DS nerf, if that makes sense.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    Personally as long as the other conditions for taking away decisive strike are meant I'm fine with people hopping in and out of a locker and still keeping it.


    Certain Killers could take advantage of it.

    The Trapper can place a trap in front of the locker essentially either forcing you to jump out before it's fully set or leaving you stuck in there are until you eventually decide to get out and get trapped. ( granted you could get people to come and help you you but at that stage you're wasting someone else's time could be on gen)

    Hag can trap the vicinity and just teleport hit anybody who who leaves the locker.

    If you're up against the pig and you have an active reverse bear trap she can just sit there and chill with some popcorn whilst you basically shorten your deaf timer

  • PawcelotPawcelot Member Posts: 985

    To be honest, the only thing BHVR really care about is if players are spending their money on macrotransactions, rift levels and DLCs. There's little incentive for them to do better when money comes in without them having to do anything other than pumping out new content.

  • gibblywibblywoogibblywibblywoo Member Posts: 1,778

    For the most part there were a lot of good changes here. Fixing OP things without gutting them and buffing weak things without breaking them. I disagree with one or two things but theres a lot of good stuff here.

  • WitheredWithered Member Posts: 67

    These are sort of my issues with it. I don't think DS should Deactivate upon touching a generator or healing or anything. Instead, as long as you are doing that action, the timer should tick down twice as fast. That way, if a killer from across the map runs back to the survivor, it if they want to stop a gen from regressing, they aren't punished.

    His Noed is way too weak to be a hex perk. Either remove hex from its title, or make it significantly stronger than what he suggested.

    Undying I'd say is too new to make a solid decision on, one way or the other. Its like devour, sometimes it's super useful, other times, it's cleansed in the first three seconds. Ruin is annoying, yes. But it doesn't make the game unplayable without it. Undying properly deals with all totems that have a great impact on gameplay, ie devour, lullaby, etc.

  • Spider175Spider175 Member Posts: 39

    Maybe someone already pointed this out but the point of his patch isn't long term solutions, it's stuff that could potentially be done very quickly within a week/month so that actual changes are made. He's not looking to implement the "ultimate balance fix patch everything!" it's something that seems reasonable to the developers to do with the least amount of time and effort so that SOMETHING can change considering how long balance changes take to be implemented. He's repeatedly pointed out he'd prefer to completely rework DS on streams but at the moment he's looking at the best solution that could be done quickly without changing everything (change one thing impacts something else). I think most of the changes when looked through that perspective are pretty reasonable, disagree with his assessment on Undying to a certain degree though I know Solo Q players have a hard time with totems that's a problem with the game itself.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    While I agree with your assessment I feel like if you just got off hook working on a generator that is legitimately right by the hook you just escaped from is a really bad idea.

    It's pretty much asking for the killer to go after you if they ever happened to come back.

    It might seem weird to say but if there's any possibility of tunneling in your mind, you should probably make sure you clear the area. Staying behind to do an objective something the killer is clearly going to the stop you from doing is never a smart idea unless that generator is about to pop

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    That is true however the problem is changes like the undying one and no one escapes death one seem way more like long-term changes than anything else.

    The Undying suggestion makes a gamble insurance perk even more of a gamble and far less reliable which is not good for balance.

    The Noed perk suggestion takes a perk that is already conditional and add even more conditions and restrictions on to it whilst also weakening the power it holds.

    A better change would be to make it less conditional and more something you earn.

    Or if you're going to add more conditions to it boost the power significantly to make up for it

    The suggested change pretty much weakens it and makes it more conditional which again is really bad for balance

  • WaffleyumboyWaffleyumboy Member Posts: 7,306

    Healing and totems are what killers want survivors to do more of. Why cry now that they can?

  • Slendy4321Slendy4321 Member Posts: 267

    I absolutely agree with you on DS. I feel like if they do other objectives aka doing gens/healing/self caring they really aren't getting tunnel so it's timer should be shorter. But while you're in a chase have it last until you're no longer in chase (leave it active while slugged) it's meant to be an anti tunnel perk right now it just makes the survivor invincible. I honestly feel like it should be changed

  • Spider175Spider175 Member Posts: 39

    I can see that, while I still would see those as just patches until they found a better solution I would also be like "wait a minute no your just gonna change it and do nothing else?" I know there's a lot of contention on Undying and I think we need to wait and see in a few months if it's truly just everywhere or another case of overreacting. The only thing I'd change about it is get rid of the aura reading and more it to Thrill of the Hunt at least for now since the effect of transferring hexes is already so powerful and it just kinda does everything for you. Maybe it can show auras of people working on totems which a lot of people have suggested.

    I respectfully disagree with you on his NOED changes since if anything that does make it something you earn since you'd have to hook people in order to get use out of it. Only thing I might say is maybe make it so you get more tokens? I know it's technically adding more conditions but the perk still will be there unless they do all the totems so I think it's reasonable but that's just me. :p

  • OniWantsYourMacaroniOniWantsYourMacaroni Member Posts: 2,045

    I think removing the aura reading from dull totems would be a fair change to Undying

  • SlickstylesSlickstyles Member Posts: 251

    I really hate the concept of deactivating perks and I don't really think it's healthy for the game. This would refer to both DS and NOED. Personally I would remove 15 seconds from all DS timers each time another survivor is hooked.

    For Noed, I dislike it being a totem perk and I would change it to be a solid 2 minutes of activation when all gens are done. I would like to implement a token system for Noed to encourage killers to actually do the objective instead of sitting there and waiting for Noed to proc.

    We could do 3 hooks gives you a 4% movement speed and 5 hooks makes all survivors exposed. These effects last for 2 minutes after all gens are done.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,690

    It used to be 2min and not a hex but survivor just went immersed for 2mins making the perk useless unless you were already chasing someone

  • xenotimebongxenotimebong Member Posts: 1,587

    I don’t think DS or NOED need changes, to be honest. The only problem with NOED is face campers, but I’d rather they do something about camping than NOED since the perk isn’t the problem in that scenario. And DS really isn’t that big of a deal in my opinion, the biggest problem there is stacking tons of second chance perks which is a SWF issue.

    That said, I like the fact that he’s trying to address common complaints and come up with simple fixes, even if I don’t agree with all of his suggestions. It’s nice to see someone being constructive, and even if I don’t agree with all of his proposed changes, none of them are so crazy that I’d necessarily hate it if they were implemented. Certain other streamers come up with awful balance ideas but Otz’s at least seem fairly reasonable and designed to keep everyone fairly happy.

  • AGMAGM Member Posts: 153

    Not every idea was a hit but there are far more hits than misses. He's right about keys, moris, the devs' priorities being... off at times, which killers/add-ons need buffs/changes most urgently and how, that there are a staggering number of perks that are never seen/used/useful, and on and on.

    If they did all the things on that document, sure there would be problems to fix, but the game would undoubtedly be better off overall than before.

  • EorpwaldEorpwald Member Posts: 37

    Pretty certain it's called a mori

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