Why would realms matter? Like really, because when you average it out the killers at the top will just be the more consistent across the realms. If you want to find a problem with the REALMS then you look deeper. Using that same information to determine killer strength is the backwards approach.
Also you keep dodging the fact he was at the top of the chart last time when they ALSO showed just red ranks. I highly doubt that he would stay consistent with previous all rank performance but go down in red ranks much if at all.
The point that freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a high kill rate means that there are fewer people who play them but those who mained him are very good. Has nothing to do with being OP. You just read what you want.
I never once tried to make any sort of claim in this thread over the validity of the belief that Freddy is too strong. I am saying that BHVR has repeatedly discouraged people from using these stats to make any arguments.
Just wanted to add something about Freddy and Spirit - that their pick rate is so high because they are easier to play than the stronger killers, while not being as bad as the others.
There was a question in the last survey about killer strength and ease of use; and I think there should be killers that allow less mechanically skilled players still feel like a scary killer, otherwise there is a point where a killer will hit as far as they can go with the less skill reliant killers and feel like they have no agency to affect the match outcome, and are unable to play skill reliant killers.
On console for example most of the stronger killers are restricted in performance by the lack of controller options and it honestly feels rubbish to be playing Trapper for example and hit that limit where you only feel like a killer when the survivors are low skill due to a favourable matchmaker or they make loads of mistakes you can take advantage off; but you will mostly play teams that run rings around weaker killers and you don’t feel like a killer at all.
Freddy is still an M1 killer with basically placeable Clown bottles, he can still be looped like all the others, he can still lose to survivors just holding W to waste time while gens are done in sub 5 minutes.
If anything I would rather they buff underused survivor things to even the gap between solo and SWF and then start bringing other killers up to the level of Freddy; rather than nerfing anything viable or strong and leaving this massive disparity between what is counterable depending on if you are solo or swf <3
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not. He very much is and the chart above confirms it. We need to discuss ways to fix this.
How does the chart confirm anything? You know the thing Behaviour tells us to not use to draw conclusions from every time they release one?
Example: Nurse apparently needs significant buffs, with her power overly punishing mistakes and worst base movement speed the chart confirms it by showing her Kill rate is 40% with a 10% difference from the 2nd worst Killer.
Plus you used the All Ranks one which is even less reliable for data (even though the Red Rank one is already unreliable due to many, many variables).
You can see his teleport from mile away, it's not like he can insta teleport like Hag. People are using slowdown perks because gens go too fast. There is no proof you will 4k every game, its like saying if you play SWF you will escape every game. Untill he hits you, you have a lot of time to take from him, because he cannot do anything to you if you are awake.
You are still twisting their words. They don't want you to draw a conclusions SPECIFICALLY FROM CHARTS.
But if I have other evidence, including past stats and experience on both ends, and valid arguments as to what exactly is the problem and how to fix it, that is literally how you are supposed to do things. OMG. Just stop. It is a very clear with what I present there is a problem.
The rope add-ons are still one of Freddy's better add-ons, because Freddy has some pretty bad add-on options. It's really ropes or the drawing add-ons as far as non-iri add-ons go. The only other thing I would consider is the blindness add-on just because OoO exists.
I said "you will 4k almost every game" That's not saying EVERY GAME.
You can see the teleport but it doesn't change the fact he can come to your gen faster than any other killer, even Nurse or Billy. If he has Ruin or Pop your gen is toast.
He is basic M1 killer who needs to hit you first, then chase you, try to put snares but if you change the loop he is at the beginning again. It's not like he gets faster in dream world.
Exactly. I use a Sheep Block for OOO, but otherwise it's ropes. There really is no other option, a passive action penalty is very strong at the end of the day.
I am not twisting their words in any way. This is exactly what they are trying to avoid.
If you want to make arguments about Freddy being too strong and provide evidence to support that, by all means. What BHVR is discouraging is using the chart as evidence.
You can't hear him until he is within 32m, and if you are awake you can't see him until he is within 32m. He can also fake the teleport to force you off a gen and come from a different angle. It is EXTREMELY easy to sneak up on survivors if you mix real and fake teleports.
If he didn't have teleport he would be worse than Clown. Let me remind you that Nurse can ignore objects and can down you much faster than Freddy. Billy has instadowns plus he travels the map very very fast
I think they just don't want people on the forum to freak out tbh. You also clearly can't take results in a vacuum with Nurse being the obvious example of why; sometimes there are other factors that make the kill rate a poor representation of a killer's viability (e.g. learning curve, Rift challenges to push someone to use a killer they're less familiar with). I can't think of anything that would be artificially inflating Freddy's kill rate, though, unless people very frequently hook suicide against him because they hate playing him, or something.
That works against survivors who aren't expirenced against him, that trick doesn't work on me or my friends, plus you should also take positioning into consideration
Exactly! But dear jebus no don't show a chart as evidence of claims, even when you provide other evidence this single piece is inadmissible becauses the devs said so.
I can't believe people around here, thank you for being a reasonable person.
You can't hear him until you can see him. At least with other Killers you can watch them from afar.
You can see his teleport but it almost always forces you off the gen, and if he fakes it, or teleported somewhere else that's wasted time for you. So it becomes a game of "Do I stay and assume he's not coming or get some distance so he doesn't catch me?"
You are reducing his chase to nothing more than "I'mma chase you and drop these here snares hoping you'll touch 'em". Freddy just has to place a snare by a window, pallet or corner and you are screwed. There is no real planning or hoping. You drop 'em like crazy and if you get close enough you attack. The fact that there is no slow down to use it or a resource requirement just makes it that much stronger.
Having strong killers isn't actually a BAD thing. If all killers had kill rates equal to Blight and Nurse, then this game would lose all sense of horror. Even though I play more Survivor than Killer, I WANT killers to be stronger so I actually have to earn my escape.
Yes, there are a few tweaks that Freddy might need, like making his snares activate after 3 seconds, rather than 1 or whatever it is. But as he stands currently, I'm really happy with him.
Ok then I would just start to actually teleport and I get the free hit.
I do this to all levels of survivors. Baby survivors are easy they will jump at the drop of a fedora. Good survivors take conditioning. I fake it a few times then actually teleport get some free hits AND my pop. Now I have 1 on a hook (because likely I saw you with BBQ), a few injured, and pressure on a gen clear across the map.
Not to mention the fact that even if you avoid him, if he has Ruin or Pop and forces you off a gen unless there was another survivor there with you that gen is regressing to 0. You avoided him but lost the gen. Good job.
So your choices are commit to the gen and get hit or lose the gen.
Comments
Pig is walking that thin line of being only 16% of a single kill behind Freddy.
These are indeed troubling times.
*prays for Pig*
Why would realms matter? Like really, because when you average it out the killers at the top will just be the more consistent across the realms. If you want to find a problem with the REALMS then you look deeper. Using that same information to determine killer strength is the backwards approach.
Also you keep dodging the fact he was at the top of the chart last time when they ALSO showed just red ranks. I highly doubt that he would stay consistent with previous all rank performance but go down in red ranks much if at all.
Not disagreeing with you. I agree with basically everything you said in the OP.
Just have my own hang-ups about the stats. Sorry.
The point that freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a high kill rate means that there are fewer people who play them but those who mained him are very good. Has nothing to do with being OP. You just read what you want.
I never once tried to make any sort of claim in this thread over the validity of the belief that Freddy is too strong. I am saying that BHVR has repeatedly discouraged people from using these stats to make any arguments.
"Probably gonna blow your mind that Freddy is actually balanced, and you're just bad at the game. "
Uhhh I guess you missed the part where I literally say I came to this conclusion by PLAYING HIM AT RANK 1. Not from playing against him.
Just wanted to add something about Freddy and Spirit - that their pick rate is so high because they are easier to play than the stronger killers, while not being as bad as the others.
There was a question in the last survey about killer strength and ease of use; and I think there should be killers that allow less mechanically skilled players still feel like a scary killer, otherwise there is a point where a killer will hit as far as they can go with the less skill reliant killers and feel like they have no agency to affect the match outcome, and are unable to play skill reliant killers.
On console for example most of the stronger killers are restricted in performance by the lack of controller options and it honestly feels rubbish to be playing Trapper for example and hit that limit where you only feel like a killer when the survivors are low skill due to a favourable matchmaker or they make loads of mistakes you can take advantage off; but you will mostly play teams that run rings around weaker killers and you don’t feel like a killer at all.
Freddy is still an M1 killer with basically placeable Clown bottles, he can still be looped like all the others, he can still lose to survivors just holding W to waste time while gens are done in sub 5 minutes.
If anything I would rather they buff underused survivor things to even the gap between solo and SWF and then start bringing other killers up to the level of Freddy; rather than nerfing anything viable or strong and leaving this massive disparity between what is counterable depending on if you are solo or swf <3
It was a good read besides this part.
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not. He very much is and the chart above confirms it. We need to discuss ways to fix this.
How does the chart confirm anything? You know the thing Behaviour tells us to not use to draw conclusions from every time they release one?
Example: Nurse apparently needs significant buffs, with her power overly punishing mistakes and worst base movement speed the chart confirms it by showing her Kill rate is 40% with a 10% difference from the 2nd worst Killer.
Plus you used the All Ranks one which is even less reliable for data (even though the Red Rank one is already unreliable due to many, many variables).
You can see his teleport from mile away, it's not like he can insta teleport like Hag. People are using slowdown perks because gens go too fast. There is no proof you will 4k every game, its like saying if you play SWF you will escape every game. Untill he hits you, you have a lot of time to take from him, because he cannot do anything to you if you are awake.
You are still twisting their words. They don't want you to draw a conclusions SPECIFICALLY FROM CHARTS.
But if I have other evidence, including past stats and experience on both ends, and valid arguments as to what exactly is the problem and how to fix it, that is literally how you are supposed to do things. OMG. Just stop. It is a very clear with what I present there is a problem.
The rope add-ons are still one of Freddy's better add-ons, because Freddy has some pretty bad add-on options. It's really ropes or the drawing add-ons as far as non-iri add-ons go. The only other thing I would consider is the blindness add-on just because OoO exists.
It would be balanced if the game was balanced around 50%
I said "you will 4k almost every game" That's not saying EVERY GAME.
You can see the teleport but it doesn't change the fact he can come to your gen faster than any other killer, even Nurse or Billy. If he has Ruin or Pop your gen is toast.
But you can hear when he is coming.
You can see his teleport from mile away
He is basic M1 killer who needs to hit you first, then chase you, try to put snares but if you change the loop he is at the beginning again. It's not like he gets faster in dream world.
Exactly. I use a Sheep Block for OOO, but otherwise it's ropes. There really is no other option, a passive action penalty is very strong at the end of the day.
I am not twisting their words in any way. This is exactly what they are trying to avoid.
If you want to make arguments about Freddy being too strong and provide evidence to support that, by all means. What BHVR is discouraging is using the chart as evidence.
You can't hear him until he is within 32m, and if you are awake you can't see him until he is within 32m. He can also fake the teleport to force you off a gen and come from a different angle. It is EXTREMELY easy to sneak up on survivors if you mix real and fake teleports.
If he didn't have teleport he would be worse than Clown. Let me remind you that Nurse can ignore objects and can down you much faster than Freddy. Billy has instadowns plus he travels the map very very fast
@TAG
I hope you laugh as hard as I did :(
I think they just don't want people on the forum to freak out tbh. You also clearly can't take results in a vacuum with Nurse being the obvious example of why; sometimes there are other factors that make the kill rate a poor representation of a killer's viability (e.g. learning curve, Rift challenges to push someone to use a killer they're less familiar with). I can't think of anything that would be artificially inflating Freddy's kill rate, though, unless people very frequently hook suicide against him because they hate playing him, or something.
Yes let's pat each other on the back and laugh instead of presenting actual arguments. SMH
so I guess pig is op huh? by your logic at least.
That works against survivors who aren't expirenced against him, that trick doesn't work on me or my friends, plus you should also take positioning into consideration
No because I didn't draw this conclusion SPECIFICALLY FROM THE CHART.
You people should read a thread before commenting. This is like the 8th time I've said this now.
Exactly! But dear jebus no don't show a chart as evidence of claims, even when you provide other evidence this single piece is inadmissible becauses the devs said so.
I can't believe people around here, thank you for being a reasonable person.
You can't hear him until you can see him. At least with other Killers you can watch them from afar.
You can see his teleport but it almost always forces you off the gen, and if he fakes it, or teleported somewhere else that's wasted time for you. So it becomes a game of "Do I stay and assume he's not coming or get some distance so he doesn't catch me?"
You are reducing his chase to nothing more than "I'mma chase you and drop these here snares hoping you'll touch 'em". Freddy just has to place a snare by a window, pallet or corner and you are screwed. There is no real planning or hoping. You drop 'em like crazy and if you get close enough you attack. The fact that there is no slow down to use it or a resource requirement just makes it that much stronger.
You gonna make an actual argument or look like a jackass? Again if you dont have anything to discuss then go somewhere else.
This very chart puts Pig in top tier, it's a joke
Having strong killers isn't actually a BAD thing. If all killers had kill rates equal to Blight and Nurse, then this game would lose all sense of horror. Even though I play more Survivor than Killer, I WANT killers to be stronger so I actually have to earn my escape.
Yes, there are a few tweaks that Freddy might need, like making his snares activate after 3 seconds, rather than 1 or whatever it is. But as he stands currently, I'm really happy with him.
Ok then I would just start to actually teleport and I get the free hit.
I do this to all levels of survivors. Baby survivors are easy they will jump at the drop of a fedora. Good survivors take conditioning. I fake it a few times then actually teleport get some free hits AND my pop. Now I have 1 on a hook (because likely I saw you with BBQ), a few injured, and pressure on a gen clear across the map.
Not to mention the fact that even if you avoid him, if he has Ruin or Pop and forces you off a gen unless there was another survivor there with you that gen is regressing to 0. You avoided him but lost the gen. Good job.
So your choices are commit to the gen and get hit or lose the gen.