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Any chance we could see a kill rate chart for games where all 5 players are red rank?

dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

Just a quick request for Ethan and the devs, the two charts Ethan showed in the Q&A were cool but they kind of beg the question for a third chart which would be filtered strictly for games where all five players are red ranks. The “red rank” chart from the Q&A was presumably games including a red rank killer but didn’t seem to be filtered based on survivor ranks (since all the killers in that red rank chart has a 10% or so higher kill rate, it was including lots of games where a red rank killer was stomping lower rank survivors.) I think an All Red Rank Players chart would give a bit of a clearer picture of roughly where the killers stand at the higher end of play.

For example, it’s possible that a killer might be particularly good against average players but high skill players can deal with them more efficiently. Hypothetically for instance Undetectability could be something that average players tend to fall victim to more often than red rank survivors since the effectiveness of Undetectability is gong to be significantly impacted by the degree of situational awareness of the survivors. The more aware they are the harder it becomes to get close, even while Undetectable. And that would be compounded by groups that are on comms who can relay an Undetectable killer’s location to others, which becomes a bigger factor in all red rank games since the probability of facing swfs likely increase in games against all red rank survivors. So you might see Pig, for instance, lower in the kill rate ranking in the All Red Rank Players chart than the ones against all survivors (maybe?)

Here’s the red rank chart again for reference. Either way thanks for putting this and the other chart together, it’s fun info to see!


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Comments

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 9,659

    How do you know if it is only killer red ranks here?

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

    I assuming it is because all of the kill rates on this chart are about 10% higher across the board compared to the All Ranks chart. If the chart is Red Rank killers versus any survivors then this is exactly what you’d expect to see. Red Red killers versus All Red Rank Survivors should be closer matches, not basically 70% kill rates.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,815

    Whats the point? Rank means nothing but playtime.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

    There’s way more than 5 all red rank games in the data. There are literally tens of thousands of matches per day and the matchmaking tends to try and put red rank killers versus red rank survivors if possible. I think something like 25% of the playerbase is red rank as well.

  • OBXOBX Member Posts: 854
    edited October 2020

    So during the failed MMR, I guess the piles of rank 20 survivor bodies were meaningless. The logic that ranks mean nothing is so faulty


    thwre is a direct correlation between rank/time played/skill

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

    I’m not one of those people, at least I hope, and I’d be interested.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

    That would be interesting as well, it’s been a while since they showed that. (The last time they had a kill rate versus swf chart it had about a 10% survival rate increase for 4-person swfs compared to solo with 2- and - at something like 3% and 8% increases if i remember right. Also it was something like 35% of games have a 2-person swf, 15% a 3- person and 5% a 4-person swf. (I remember the total was 55% of games had a swf of some sort and 5% of all games had a 4-person swf, the other numbers kind of scaled accordingly.)

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 9,659

    I think those stats you are asking for won’t support your narrative any more than the stats we now got.


    the problem is that those survivor sided matches people are always talking about are just a symptom of the flawed ranking and matchmaking. It’s mostly that those red tank killers may not be as good as they think they are, even I can get to red rank, on both sides, and I am pretty bad..

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

    What narrative? I’m not pushing any agenda, I’m just curious to see the differences in the numbers.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890

    Rank means a bit more than just playtime. You have to both play a lot and also have a positive emblem record to reach red rank. So it’s an indicator of both overall player experience, which correlates for the most part to skill, and of positive results over time.

    Think of it this way, if rank doesn’t mean anything then why does the Red Rank killer chart have a 10% higher kill rate than the All Rank killer chart? If Red Ranks didn’t correlate at all to skill there would be no difference.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    From a discussion on reddit over 2018 stats release.


    Still holds true today.

    Hmmmmmm


    From last night's stats release discussion:

    Why would they exclude mori's. Do they exclude key escapes?


    Oh, but killers have a close to 3k kill rate in red ranks. Must be flawed /s

  • Spider175Spider175 Member Posts: 40

    The way stats in this game are released are often incredibly oversimplified. Often they tend to favor the idea that Killers are incredibly powerful which leads to this perception that they're OP. Problem is because matchmaking is the way it is and I as a rank 1 killer can be paired with a group of purple and greens or with survivors with 3-4k hours compared to my relatively modest 600 is bonkers to me. It would be nice to see statistics with far more specificity. Five players all in red ranks is a good idea but also I'd imagine it must be very difficult to create statistics for things like vs SWFs because you'd have to specify 2, 3, and 4-man. What about with keys? What about with Moris? What about with red add ons by both killer and survivor? I know the devs said something like don't make judgements based on statistics like this but it feels like they make judgements based on this data so idk?

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 9,659

    You have a narrative: the stats you are seeing don’t show matches against ‚skilled‘ survivors and are flawed because of the low rank survivors.

    it’s just an assumption of yours. as far as we know, those stats could very well be just what you are asking for: it’s red ranks for all players included, nothing indicates otherwise.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 550

    The stats are absolutely meaningless because they are not detailed enough. If behavior takes these stats as shown and makes decisions based off of them, this is the sole reason why this game is so poorly balanced.

    Killers can run a myriad of different offerings and addons that GREATLY affect their ability to kill. Survivors can run a myriad of different offerings that GREATLY affect their ability to survive and die. There's also perks to consider.

    Of the 3 out of 4 average survivors killed, how many are running ds unbreakable iron will and borrowed time? Actually I would be curious as to how many survivors that survive that are running that combo. Are they bringing med kits? flashlights? offerings to survivor sided maps? keys? are they suiciding?

    Of the killers that are killing an average of 3 survivors, what are they running? Are they running the best addons for the specific killer? Are they running the best perks? Moris? are they running more killer favored maps? is it a fully kitted out killer vs survivors not running meta perks or addons, or vice versa?

    What exact rank are these kills and survives happening? is it a rank 4 killer who just got into red ranks vs rank 1 survivors who have been there all season, is it a rank 1 killer who's been there all season vs a team of rank 3-4 survivors who just got to those ranks?

    This game is not designed to be balanced, just from all the variables that go into play. You cannot possibly draw any reasonable conclusion from any of these broad stats unless many variables are controlled for. The fact that behavior releases such worthless information and the predictable response that ensues leads me to really question what their motives are.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    I see you went with typical response #2.

    Overall, across all ranks, and within red ranks exclusively, killers are performing too well. Not just at the low ranks with noobs, but also at the skill ceiling red ranks where these "meta com using swf squads" are. Regardless of the GREAT variation, on AVERAGE, killers are too strong.

    Whatever anecdotal evidence you are asking for gets averaged out over both sides. "Where survivors using meta perks/add-ons?" Probably as much as killers were using meta perks and add-ons.

    Considering these stats are from every single player that played during the data collection phase. it is the literal entire study population, there is no need to control. It's not a sample size, with a few participants, whose findings are being assumed onto the entire playerbase. It's literally all-inclusive, no assumptions, nothing for control for.


    "Ooo, but moris." Keys

    "But match making" affects both sides.

    "But people die on first hook or afk." Killer afk's or teams to let people go.

    "But survivor giving killer a pity kill." Killer giving survivor hatch.

    "But DC's" excluded, but even if they weren't a killer dcing would've counted as 4 escapes.

    "But boosted survivors" boosted killers

    "Survivors are bad, no wonder they die so much at red rank" then why are you complaining that red rank survivors are unbeatable. Also killers are bad too.

  • Kbot22Kbot22 Member Posts: 96

    There is not a direct correlation. I do agree however, that there is some correlation. I've seen devotion 10s that get mindgamed on the shack pallet. These people are red ranks who get mindgamed on the downed shack pallet.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 550

    You're right, Myers pig and bubba need to be heavily nerfed because they are overperforming, and freddy is the strongest killer in the game.

    You don't seem to understand how useless these stats are. Killers running the best perks with the best addons on the best maps vs survivors running the best perks with the best addons on the best maps is the ONLY metric that actually matters in terms of balance. These stats are completely irrelevant, and god help you if you are faced with any situation in your life where you will need to actually rely on statistics for anything.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436
    edited October 2020

    Quite the logical fallacy there.

    Due to the nature of pick rates, deciding to nerf one particular killer based on this stats would be a sample size (not everyone plays pig after all, maybe only top killers do).

    I'm basing this on the average overall kill rate, which includes every single killer. A base nerf, similar to how survivors get base nerfed through map design or perks or healing speed.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 550

    There is so much wrong with your reasoning I really don't know where to start. Do you believe that nurse is the one single weakest killer in this game by a very large margin?

    Why should any PvP game ever base balance decisions on the average playerbase?

    Also where do survivors get nerfed in maps? Most maps are survivor sided. I would like for you to show me how many maps are killer sided and why you think that. I would also know why you think that survivor perks are weak, considering survivors have the strongest perks in the game.


  • RaptorrotasRaptorrotas Member Posts: 2,469

    Well, last time the devs posted a chart for "red ranks", they later admitted they only looked at the killer ranks for it. After we got the usual drama and pitchfork mobs.

    Its pretty normal to ask for charts with all players being red.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436
    edited October 2020

    1. Nurse is under 50% in all ranks, and over I'm red ranks. So no. She doesn't match the rest of the killers in regard to being over 50% in both, she can use some skill-floor lowering. Regardless, it is okay to have half the killers in the 40-50% range and the other half in the 50-60% range. This should be done through base killer adjustments that apply to everyone, then they can go in and fine tune the killers to lower the variance. As long as the overall is near 50% kill rate which is not the case currently. So even if it pushes nurse further down, there clearly still is a need for a base killer nerf.

    2. This isn't an esports competitive game, and with a normal distribution most players tend to be in +/- 1 standard deviation from average. They can always fine tune near the skill ceiling and skill for after fixing the base game, but if they don't have the resources, why would they cater to the small percentage of players at the top instead of the majority of the player base?

    3. Most maps are survivor sided? I'm sorry What? There isn't a single survivor sided map.

    2018:

    2019:


    Nerfed even more for survivors in 2020 mid chapter update:

    map changes this summer that reduced # pallets, made main building loops unrepeatable, decreased safety of pallet loops, and spread out tiles to prevent chaining. All map nerfs, and will continue to apply it in the future to the maps they missed in the refresh.

    I don't think you're knowledgeable to be discussing with me. You're flat out wrong here

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 550

    No, you don't seem to understand game design or game balance, but I know now that you're a lost cause. Just know that there's a reason no one agrees with you, and it's not because you're right.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    straw man and bandwagon fallacy, no real rebuttal to stats and facts. Gg

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,890
    edited October 2020

    Where did I say the stats were "flawed"? And yes, I'm assuming that the Red Rank chart is for Red Rank killer matches but isn't filtered for matches where all the players are red rank. Why else would the kill rates be 10% higher across the board? So yeah it's an assumption but I think it's a logical one. (Or do you honestly think that red rank killers average 3 kills per game against groups of all red rank survivors? And I mean every killer - Clown is 66% kill rate on average.)

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