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This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)



  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    You are strawmaning because you are focusing entirely on my presentation of a chart despite the fact I barely reference it in my points. Like continuously even when me or others have pointed out that "do not draw conclusions" is different than "the charts are meaningless". They are in a vacuum. They aren't when coupled with previous data and other evidence.

    The mere fact you have been saying the same tired nonsense for 7 pages now without EVER actually talking about the topic just proves your goal is to strawman and derail the topic. IDGAF what the devs said, these charts have meaning when you can see a very clear pattern with Freddy (highest kill rate by a significant margin for all ranks AND red ranks previously).

    Stop trying to derail the thread maybe actually address my arguments. You know full well what you are trying to do, and you keep repeating yourself as if that will make you right and completely negate my entire argument. News flash... it doesn't.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason, especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy. THAT IS THE RED FLAG. My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts. You claim I am doing that when I am not. That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart. Not once do either of you actually address my points or try to refute the evidence other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".

  • Dwight_FairfieldDwight_Fairfield Member Posts: 5,074
    edited October 2020

    This is your point of view so please explain it to me with some examples. What kind of internal factors are they neglecting to mention for Mikey when utilizing his kill stats as a reason to deny him a buff?

  • KA149108KA149108 Member Posts: 159

    Yeh Freddy is way OP. If he had snares OR teleportation then it wouldn't be so bad but no other killer can do as much as he does. I find majority of Freddies sweaty anyways. Also that reach is unreal.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,375

    That's not strawmanning. I'm not using the chart bit to argue that your overall points regarding Freddy are wrong. I am saying the chart bit is not good evidence and that's it.

    Just off the top of my head, Dc rates, perk builds, add-on usage, SWF, offerings, maps.

  • TheButcherTheButcher Member Posts: 871

    No the general public are trying to make this game competitive and want to be able to 1v1 the killer all the time. That's just not going to happen. It's not what the game was based around, and if you need that kind of competitiveness go play a different game.

  • Dwight_FairfieldDwight_Fairfield Member Posts: 5,074

    They don't count dc matches when compiling these stats. They didn't mention perk builds, swf, offerings, maps etc when justifying Nurse's low kill rate. They just talked about her high skill cap which makes her hard to master.

    So I don't believe any of those were factors.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,375

    Those have to be factors with regards to balancing because when determining whether something needs to be re-balanced, you need the context to figure out HOW it might need to be rebalanced.

    Also, source on "They don't count dc matches when compiling these stats?"

  • RizeAkiRizeAki Member Posts: 1,209

    While yes I agree he needs changes I wouldn’t base a lot of why off stats. Those same stats also say nurse needs buffs, ds+ub is fine, as well as OoO not being an issue in swf groups. One last thing is these could all be based off 1k games as we don’t know what the win condition is for these stats.

  • Dwight_FairfieldDwight_Fairfield Member Posts: 5,074

    If those are significant factors then they would have mentioned them when justifying why a killer doesn't need a buff. Because just about every killer can be affected by all those factors. Michael is no different.

    The devs said so. @Peanits @MandyTalk can confirm this. They never factor in dc matches when compiling in these stats.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    "I'm not using the chart bit to argue that your overall points regarding Freddy are wrong."

    Yes you are. You continuously default to this and have not ONCE actually addressed my argument. The fact you keep replying to me or anyone that challenges your false interpretation of the dev's statement just further demonstrates that. Saying it once would have been enough, but you keep bringing it up, despite me or anyone else pointing out that hey, actually there is something to this data as is correlates strongly with previous data, that should at least be enough for the devs to say to themselves "we should investigate this further".

    "Just off the top of my head, Dc rates, perk builds, add-on usage, SWF, offerings, maps."

    DC rates - First I think that DC's weren't included, IIRC they said that about previous charts, but even if it was that would just suggest there is a problem with the killer because lots of people don't want to play against them.

    Perk builds - Irrelevant as we can assume this for other killers yet Freddy is still ahead by a sizeable margin. Plus when we DO consider perk builds, Freddy literally has one of the most oppressive builds in the game via Ruin, Undying, Thana, Sloppy, Swing Chains, and Jump Rope (which you don't even need all that to make it work you can swap out some stuff too).

    Add-on usage - Again irrelevant but that's because the only add-ons worth using on Freddy are chains/ropes and paint brush. I bet if we looked at add-on usage for Freddy those add-ons would be clear and above all the others combined. I am positive of this.

    SWF - Already said how a 4 man SWF is more broken than Freddy, literally no killer can compete against this. But if we just assume for a moment that all killers have equal numbers of SWF games then Freddy is still ahead.

    Offerings - Again I remember them saying mori's didn't count this was just sacc's, but I could be wrong. Despite that, the only offerings that affect the game are mori's and maps.

    Maps - Irrelevant because we are looking at an average.

    We want to look at the WHOLE. Anyone can point to a super specific setup and say anything they want. "Wraith on Lery's with Ruin, Noed, silent bell, aura read while invis, Undying, and Sloppy is OP against solo players using adept perks." That's literally your argument right now. We can't look at specific types of games we have to look at the whole, and as such the chart is actually the best representation of the average Freddy performance. If his average performance is clearly above all other killers for 2 data dumps in a row, you seriously don't see anything wrong with that? Really? You are going to sit there and tell me that means nothing while saying that this exact specific setup does? It is illogical.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,375

    "Yes you are."

    ...no, I'm not. The reason I am not addressing your other arguments is that I don't take issue with your other arguments. Literally the only thing I take issue with is you going "See, the chart confirms I am right." The reason I keep bringing it up is that you are pushing back against that point specifically.

    What if I told you that I am not against the notion that Freddy is too strong? What does that change as far as this argument I am having?

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,375

    What I am saying is that those factors ARE looked into when discussing a Killer's given kill rates. If Michael is deemed to be in an acceptable position, then sure. But it ain't because of this one chart. It's because of far more specific and detailed data that they have to draw their conclusion from.

    If they straight-up said that, then that's certainly fair and I'll concede that part.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    "Literally the only thing I take issue with is you going "See, the chart confirms I am right." The reason I keep bringing it up is that you are pushing back against that point specifically."

    The fact that it is consistent as it is WITH PREVIOUS DATA means that yes, it does confirm something. Couple with my experience and my points then it is very clear that the charts suggest something, that something being "Freddy is too strong".

    You are fighting back to derail the thread and nothing else. Don't sit there and tell me otherwise there is literally no reason for you to reply as much as you do repeating the same statement that several of us now have pointed out is just flat out wrong.

    No reasonable person would sit here and say "yea I agree with you but that chart means nothing".

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,375

    No because they've said the exact same thing about the previous data for the same reason. Unreliable data matching up with previous unreliable data doesn't suddenly make both sets of data reliable.

    I keep replying arguing about the same thing because you (and others) keep contesting the one thing that I take issue with. The fact that several people agree with you doesn't mean any more than the fact that several people agree with me.

    The chart is not reliable data. I don't need to believe Freddy is strong, weak, balanced, or anything in between those things to believe that.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    Keep your sanity, it ain't worth arguing over here lol.

    1. This is an echo chamber. The forums are known to be heavy killer favored, to say it's not is a bad faith argument

    2. Also just ignore tag, their entire existence on the forum is to be pedantic

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436
    edited October 2020

    Freddy is overpowered in the current state of the game. When the devs say don't draw conclusions, it is because there is more than just "freddy power op" that makes freddy op. In the current state of the game, yes freddy is very overpowered.

    Gamesense theory:

    In this case, there is an interaction of map design as a moderator of the relationship between freddy's power and kill rate. Freddy already has a strong teleport power in this game. Nothing game breaking, but any changes that slow the game down, would be a 1 to 1 buff for normal killers, but a 1 to 2 buff for freddy due to his teleport to objective and synergy with slow down. In the current state of the game, slow down perks are meta, and that means freddy become 2 fold as strong with his synergy.

    Then come the second aspect of his powers, the snares. These are intended to help cut down chase times. However they work by forcing pallets to get thrown down early (kill rate is now resource dependent), canceling fast vaults, so now preventing repeat use of pallet-less loops (survivor map-knowledge), and slowing survivors down to prevent them from getting to the next loop (distance dependent).

    So map design changes that would normally buff killers 1 to 1, now buff freddy 1 to 4. 4 times as much.

    In the current state of the game with the direction devs have been going with map design, we see:

    -pallet loops being less safe (4x buff for freddy),

    - # of pallets being reduced (4x buff for freddy),

    -smaller maps with fewer tiles, but tiles being spaced farther apart to prevent chaining loops (4x buff for freddy),

    -main building loops being nerfed (4x buff for freddy).

    His power is over loaded, with minimal cost:

    Pretty much his teleport/mobility/slowdown is a better version of demogorgon's with a quarter of the cost/risk (while he has a cool down, freddy doesn't have the finite resource, time to put down a tp, & survivor counterplay to cancel a tp that demogrogon has to account for).

    His chase/snare powers are a way way way better version of clown (no slowdown, no reload, no aiming, stays down as a trap for planning instead of temporary, no los needed.) And comparatively, clown has no mobility slow down. Maybe the devs thought they could counter balance it with snares not being used while awake but the timer is so short that you'll most likely be asleep by the time you are in chase, the cost is pretty much entirely mitigated.

    On top of this already overloaded, low cost high reward base kit, he also gets the bonuses that come along with the sleep mechanic that decrease survivability (no tr, no directionality, in-and-out phasing, no bt, more slowdown).

  • LufanatiLufanati Member Posts: 194

    half of Freddy's kills are survivors DCing because they want a killer they can loop and slam gens out in 4 minutes.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,261

    Still can't believe that no one is talking about Pig's 2.88% pick rate in correlation to her HUGE 62.09% (!!!) kill rate!

  • LufanatiLufanati Member Posts: 194

    genius idea. Wraith would be much stronger if you could only see his shimmer from within where his terror radius would be otherwise. Blood lodge would no longer be a DC map.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Again unreliable data is not the same as incomplete data. There is nothing unreliable about these charts, you just can't draw a conclusion EXCLUSIVELY from them is what the devs are saying. However if previous data lines up as does my experience then that should be enough to convince a reasonable person that Freddy is too strong.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    I'm gonna go make some alt accounts to vote this up some more.

    Mods I'm joking don't ban me.

    Still can't believe you strawman this hard and still can't make an actual argument.

    Also where is the other evidence to support your claim? You have none? Yea that's what the devs talk about when they say "don't draw conclusions from the chart." My conclusions were not drawn from the chart, the chart merely supports my conclusions.

  • LufanatiLufanati Member Posts: 194

    This place is kind of the opposite of an echo chamber. Sometimes I see opinions so far-out and ridiculous I wonder if the OP has even played the game, or is just making conclusions based off their favorite stream or something.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 11,375

    Disagree. One can certainly make arguments over whether a character is balanced or not using evidence. The charts being presented are simply poor evidence and don't really help the point being made, regardless of what that point may be.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    "Poor evidence" because the devs said "don't draw conclusions from the chart"? No sorry, the conclusions weren't drawn from the chart, the chart merely supports what I said.

    If I said "Nurse is really hard to play, and the chart supports this" would that still be wrong?

  • LufanatiLufanati Member Posts: 194

    the charts are completely unreliable. They don't take into account trolls, afks, DCs, wildly mismatched matchmaking, killers farming, killers giving hatch, etc. There's a reason the devs themselves said it was garbage data.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,261
    edited October 2020

    What do you mean?

    I already said I played as and against Pig at red ranks and talked about her powers and add-ons in a previous post.

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