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Once again, survs get great perks with synergy and that amplify problematic issues



  • Angelicus23Angelicus23 Member Posts: 2,547

    kyf was bugged so I couldnt try with friends the myers combo, so I'll have to wait for the chapter to come, it seemed interesting for me and I wanted to calculate distances in diifferent kind of loops.

    about "damaging generators" of you remember devs updated some descriptions in the mid chapter to made clear how combined perks work, for example, surge doesnt work with overcharge because overcharge states that you need to perform the kicking action, while with this new perk it just asks you to damage a generator. What made me curious is that if you hit 2 gens of your area with surge, you can make up to 5 gens regress with luck. However, it's unfortunate if the selected gens by the new perk are being worked on, unless the "difficult skillcheck" displays which didn't happen to me today

  • noctis129noctis129 Member Posts: 967

    I love keys.

  • TheMonadoBoiTheMonadoBoi Member Posts: 343

    No problem.

    1.- I did, before playing general matchmaking I tested the perks on both sides on KYF, as long as you get to a decent pallet or vault this perk is useless (which, again, 90% of decent survivors should be able to do)

    Maybe Myers or the Nurse can get something out of it but then again, it's just FIVE times in a game and it's triggered by survivors. There is absolutely no control from the killer's side about when you'll be able to use this perk.

    2.- It's not an aura reading ability, if you see their location and they move more than 5m and you're not a high mobility killer there is absolutely no way to gain a benefit from this. Hag + Franklins is still miles better than any other killer with this perk.

    3.- It's not true though. None of these perks significantly synergise with killer. Even if you get surge to proc, it won't affect the other gens, the PGTW effect does not pass on to the other gens, you can't make use of Ruin's extra regression because Ruin is already doing that. It has absolutely no significant synergy while Key perk along with Plunderer's can mean all 4 survivors escape through hatch extremely easily. Also notice how nearly no survivor perks "render other perks useless" apart from Exhaustion. You can easily bring whatever you want with no drawbacks, while killers have to think about what perks to bring that don't clash with other stuff they want in their build.

  • FreakPrinceFreakPrince Member Posts: 475

    The chest perk could have some issues but the other ones? meh... just don’t go through pallets while carrying a survivor.

  • xenotimebongxenotimebong Member Posts: 2,803

    Lol, why are you being so aggressive? Accusing me of lying and “pulling stuff out of my ass” and that I apparently just think “killers are whining reee” when I didn’t say anything remotely close to that.

    I was around for all of those perk releases and saw people complain about all of them. I’m not lying. I also don’t think this is something just killers are guilty of, I’ve seen people bitching about the new killer regression perk and I also think they’re overreacting.

    If I’m wrong about the pallet perk, come back to me in a month when the devs have announced its inevitable nerf. But I’m confident in my opinion that the perk will be absolutely fine and balanced and it will be run in meme builds only.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited November 2020

    Thanks <3 Agreed though, the increased search speed definitely would be helpful. One important thing that isn't clear from the perk description is whether that speed increase only applies to the first time you open the chest, though. My reading of the perk is that it would only speed up the initial opening of the chest since it specifies that the speed boost is for "unlocking" chests, and in theory chests you're using tokens on are already open. It's definitely ambiguous, though; like, it could also be that you can just perform the search instantly when you consume a token instead of needing to spend time searching it. They also don't specify if the chest needs to be empty for you to use a token; if so, you'd have to remove each item from the chest and drop it on the ground before re-searching, and honestly you may want to do that anyway, because otherwise I'd expect the item in the chest gets consumed... I digress. At any rate, the amount of time these token searches take is going to make a big difference in how much time it wastes, so I'm curious about how this works!

    Beyond opening chests, though, we still can't ignore the time you need to spend just moving between chests. Sometimes you get lucky and they spawn like 10m from a gen, but other times you're climbing hills on the outside of the map. There's also of course the basement chest, which is more risky to open and which is always at least somewhat out of the way. All chests do carry some risk to open too, especially against mobile or stealthy killers, so that's another factor. And then there's the new killer perk that can reduce item rarity...

    I'd feel a lot less strongly about this if the token searches are extremely fast, but especially assuming they take a reasonable amount of time I'd much rather survivors open chests than do gens. Even if we say it takes a minute of one survivor's time to open chests / go out of their way to get to them, that's 75% of a gen they could have done that they've instead sacrificed for the chance at finding a key. I feel very similarly about this as I do about all of the perks and add-ons that give you bonus BPs but have a weak or detrimental effect; you're probably better off just running something that's actually good, because that's going to give you more BPs in the long run when you consider how much weaker those perks and add-ons are than the alternatives and how much worse you'll do as a result. In this case too, you're probably better off just running a meta build and rushing gens; having a fair chance at finding a key is nice and could increase your odds of escaping if you get lucky, but this probably isn't enough to outweigh the combined impacts of doing without some meta perks and repairing gens much more slowly.

  • AVoiceOfReasonAVoiceOfReason Member Posts: 2,688

    Flip-Flop, Unbreakable, DS and Pallet Perk :)

  • Angelicus23Angelicus23 Member Posts: 2,547

    with myers that 5 times are easy 5 hooks, probably 2 deaths if not one

    doctor's statc blast gives the same information and is hard not to find the survivor since they are still in your radius and walking is very slow to get away not leaving marks

    and I talked abot surge but not other perks, Im thinking now about surveillance to get useful information, but more perks would mean too much synergy

  • idektbhidektbh Member Posts: 129

    its pretty much a guaranteed escape, but I don’t see the “problem” since we have an even worse combination which is far stronger, works on more than one situation and also requires 3 perk slots: unbreakable + ds + soul guard

    honestly the perk that lets you drop pallets while being carried is more than fine, synerged with ds and flip flop can be strong but it’s kinda situational, u need to be dropped by a pallet, recover and get under it, also as I said, the perk build above is far stronger and less situational as it also works agains strong slugging techniques.

    Without any other perk to work together with it, it is kinda trash, if u walk by a pallet while carrying a survivor knowing that this perk exists then, idk what to say... avoiding pallets is literally the easiest and most common thing to do while carrying someone. If they combine it with flip flop so be it, they still need to recover to half the recover bar AND get under a pallet, still pretty situational. If it works? Yh it’s strong, but if it doesn’t? U just wasted 2 perks for nothing, congratulations.

    Anyway, the perk is fine, it can be strong when combined with strong perks but there’s far more stronger builds that do the same and even more, nothing to complain in my opinion.

  • Warcrafter4Warcrafter4 Member Posts: 2,917

    To be fair:

    Both blood pact and AMN were both nerfed from the PTB to live so you can't overly argue for it as the unhealthy parts of both of them got removed.

    Perma up time on blood pact without not needing to fully heal to get its speed buff got removed + The double stun being removed from AMN.

    As for Desperate Measures : People are still traumatized by old toolboxes.

    For the people was always considered a SWF only perk which isn't a very good idea to have as a perk and given the nature of other SWF only perks Cough Object of Obsession Cough Cough its entirely reasonable for people to not want more of them.

  • TheClownIsKingTheClownIsKing Member Posts: 6,278

    I thought I read that Appraisal reduces the rarity of items, just like the new killer perk Hoarder does?

    Am I wrong?

  • WalmartWalmart Member Posts: 19

    There is a drawback to the perk you call the second DS, and that is killers don't commonly walk through pallets with survivors, it's very situational. Also, to counter it and flip flop you literally just pick up the survivor instantly. It's really not that difficult to avoid.

  • kolosovskikolosovski Member Posts: 39

    DS2. So much drama for such a silly, useless perk. I can't honestly remember the last time I was carried through a pallet by a killer. Easiest counter ever.

  • wraithbaby3wraithbaby3 Member Posts: 30

    You must really"[BAD WORD]" as a killer. Why don't you complain about a killer that can camp and chase at the same time? little "[BAD WORD]"

  • lazerlightlazerlight Member Posts: 352

    Appraisal should start with ONE token. And the rest should be acquired by unlocking a chest. You shouldn't be able to spawn in with three tokens and plunder the same chest over and over. Plus, it should tremendously decrease item quality.

    If someone else opened a chest before you, you shouldn't be able to plunder it, unless of course you got a token from opening another chest.

    Max amount of tokens should remain the same. That way you can't abuse it with multiple people running it.

  • Seiko300Seiko300 Member Posts: 1,862

    I think the problem is less with the perk itself, and more a problem with keys.

    I'll keep it short: but I think the real solution here is to just make it so keys no longer can be pulled from chests. Keys being pulled from chests and straight up winning survivor games is by no means skillful or even all that "lucky" since as OP mentioned it does happen somewhat more frequently than you would think they should.

    Instead what I think should happen is keys can no longer be found in chests by themselves. Instead Ace in the Hole gets a buff, also granting you a small chance to pull a key from a chest on top of its other effects. This change fits with the Ace's character of being a "Lucky Gambler", it solves the problem of keys being pulled out of chests by random and ending games all by themselves especially by coordinated SWF squads, and it gives a buff to a perk that isn't meta which as we know increases perk diversity. Nerf powerful perks sure, but buffing underused perks or at least lesser used perks is arguably more important.

  • Cable2486Cable2486 Member Posts: 249

    I have to disagree with both of these, save the situational bit. All of your math not withstanding (which you should really check again), Appraisal finds its strength in the endgame, or to gain healing/repair items. It has strong potential for both solo and swf use, particularly if a solo runs it, as whether or not they work with the team or work alone is usually a 50/50.

    That said, if someone running it has any type of luck add-on, is running plunderers, or burns a purple coin, then that makes 8 attempts to search for a usable key for one person, with a possible 9 more is everyone brought it. This also creates an issue with BTL, as it essentially increases the availability of potential repair items that can refill one time each - a gen rushers dream come true.

    Conversely, It gives a solo player eight chances at the end of a match if they're the final survivor to find a key while hiding from the killer, allowing even further short circuit of the gate unless the killer opens the gate themselves. And yeah sure, bringing a key is easier than finding one, but the majority of killers if they see someone bringing a key into a match will tunnel that person down, bring Franklin's, or just dodged the lobby all together.

    As for Power Struggle, I can see that being every dedicated looper's best friend. Someone running a dedicated looper build WILL likely run this perk alongside flip-flop and DS, Which pairs with just about any of the exhaustion perks to give someone an absolutely disgusting ability to get away from the killer, at which point the only counter play is a handful of situationally useful killer perks as a counter or playing out their perks and wasting the time to chase them. And God forbid you have anyone play any of the oak add-ons and start sabotaging.

    The point is these perks have a lot of potential very powerful synergy in the hands of even a moderately skilled SWF team. Even a solo could make decent use of them without much effort.

  • Ramxenoc445Ramxenoc445 Member Posts: 1,359

    Pretty sure the chest perk says that it ensures rarity is not very rare. You don't get keys that often out of chests I've only had it happen like five times and usually it's a green key anyway. And the pallet perk is ass not even worth complaining about. If you use it with DS you have to choose one or the other. Also maybe think three times about slugging now. It's not a good perk it's average niche at best because you have to dedicate another bad/niche perk to make it work. This post seems like complaining for the sake of complaining. But go off killer

  • What about enduring plus spirit fury is a good counter play for the power struggle plus the survivorhas to use 3 perks to get a use out of one so seems alight of a perk

  • batax90batax90 Member Posts: 879

    The reason the new survivor perk are not meta is because the survivor perk are too strong. Example for the people is strong but because you cant predict what your teamate will do you cant really bring the perk and the perk is weak if we compare with the meta and its the same for most of the new survivor perk

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited November 2020

    What is wrong with my math? I just don't see how it's ever going to be valuable to waste a perk slot and a lot of time to find items when you could just bring an item with you and run a meta perk instead. Searching chests is a complete waste of time in most cases. If you want your dreams to come true as a gen rusher, you won't waste time searching chests; you'll rush gens. Look at this wiki page ([link]). It actually takes more time to open a chest in search of a toolbox than the toolbox will save you on a gen.

    Luck also doesn't affect the rarity of items in chests. It only affects your odds of escaping from a bear trap and pulling yourself off the hook.

    If you're the final survivor, you have two good options: 1) Camp an exit gate and start opening it the second the killer shuts the hatch, or 2) Cruise around looking for hatch yourself. Searching for keys as the last survivor is only going to be useful in rare situations after the hatch is closed (e.g. imagine a Trapper that pre-trapped both exit gates, or bad RNG that spawned the exit gates really close together). Even if the killer shut the hatch and is just walking back and forth between the two gates, you're usually still better off waiting for the killer to leave a gate, opening that gate 25% so that the first bulb lights up, then looping around to the other gate and opening it while they search for you. Like, let's imagine you cruised around the map looking for chests and you finally get one on your second Appraisal token. At this point the EGC is probably half over, you still need to be wary of the killer, and usually you won't know where the hatch is yet if the killer shuts it first... In summary: running a perk to give yourself a higher chance at finding a key as the last survivor is a bad use of a perk slot.


    Power Struggle and Flip Flop require two perk slots and they're substantially less effective than DS is in one perk slot. You need the killer to slug you under a pallet for several seconds, you need to burn the pallet to get the stun, and the stun is shorter than the 5 second stun from DS. Plus, if you have a buddy following you around in your chase just to try to aggro the killer to give you enough time to recover to 50%, why couldn't your buddy just get the pallet save and save you the two perk slots? I would much rather play against survivors running Flip Flop and Power Struggle instead of meta perks like Dead Hard and Adrenaline.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702

    Well, that's what meta perks are; they're just the strongest perks. If you consider a perk like For the People "strong" and meta perks "too strong", this is really just a question of perspective. Still, you agree with me that the new perks aren't among the best survivor perks available, and therefore will not be meta. This pattern has continued over a few years worth of DLCs.

  • UMCorianUMCorian Member Posts: 528
    edited November 2020

    To be fair, Killers got Undying last round - it was basically a pure Power Creep perk to deal with Power Creep, as it's basically mandatory for most killers to run it, unless they want every game to end in about 6 minutes.

    Without it, the loading screen is literally 1/4th your play time.

  • CrowmanCrowman Member Posts: 5,505

    You are thinking of the new killer perk Hoarder. Appraisal does not say anything about decreasing the loot rarity when rummaging through chests.

  • Ramxenoc445Ramxenoc445 Member Posts: 1,359

    Sorry if I was a bit rude. But yeah I'm not sure why I even bothered to respond I've not fully learned the new perks and that sounds about right... My apologies

  • Hex_StalkHex_Stalk Member Posts: 488

    The pallet perk could be changed from 25% to 30% or 35%. At least this way it won't be busted if they have flip flop, and the killer has at least a chance to get away from the pallet a recovered survivor decided to crawl under.

  • feechimafeechima Member Posts: 788
    edited November 2020

    Tremendously decreasing all item quality would make the perk useless. No one wants to pull out there brown toolboxes from a chest. The perk shouldn't spawn keys or make the chance tremendously lower, problem solved.

  • Keys are on the chopping block for the next midchapter, same with moris. So hopefully this perk will only be a problem for about a month. And if your actually worried about it bring hoarder (hopefully they buff it to where its impossible to get above a green item if you have it)

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