Home Discussions General Discussions

The reason why bloodlust was removed.

Bloodlust was removed and a MMR system was stealthily put in. The devs are trying to figure out an MMR system and bloodlust was likely messing with stats.



  • WishIcouldmainWishIcouldmain Member Posts: 618

    To show who and who doesn't rely on bloodlust. And which survivors die to bloodlust. In theory.

  • WishIcouldmainWishIcouldmain Member Posts: 618

    His theory above is MMR. So maybe this will flesh out the players.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    Legion's ability synergizes with bloodlust. Hillbilly gains from bloodust as he is able to make curves with it better, same with leatherface.

    Spirit deathslinger and huntress have ways to determine skill.

    Bloodlust will certainly pad a player's stats. It's true that it affects killers differently, but that's the problem, it's a wildcard variable.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    I've been getting MMR-like MM at rank 1 the past few days, and so have many other people. There is absolutely positively zero reason to remove bloodlust for a couple days and tell people about it. It's like finding out how many times a coin will land on heads, but only flipping it 5 times. It's meaningless. They're testing out an MMR system without bloodlust. It also makes more sense than just removing bloodlust for a weekend out of the blue.

  • Ghost_Face_MainGhost_Face_Main Member Posts: 366

    This is irrelevant as hell. If MMR was re-enabled, they would have announced it.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 4,055
  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    Anything more I say is subject to NDA, so I can't really.

  • kolosovskikolosovski Member Posts: 33

    Bloodlust resets when a killer uses his power, hits a target or breaks a pallet. So it has no effect during any of the killer powers you mentioned.

    As to the topic, I don't think there is any kind of MMR currently. I don't know why they are experiments with that mechanic, I think it's fine the way it is.

  • Ghouled_MojoGhouled_Mojo Member Posts: 705

    I’ve wondered if there was something else going on. I know matchmaking has been weird this weekend and I guess my since it’s timing is off too because other things seem wonky.

  • Gore_NargaiGore_Nargai Member Posts: 51

    It's just a test, they are not removing anything yet, MMR does have nothing to do with bloodlust, and they don't have any reason for adding a feature without announcing it.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    Bloodlust can be used to close enough distance for either billy or leatherface to chainsaw. If not, they can m1. To argue that they do not benefit from bloodlust is plain wrong.

    It's amazing that people don't understand how strong movespeed is in this game, nor do they understand how to utilize it. There's a reason why play with your food is so strong on leatherface.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    Bloodlust alters both chase times and kills. This is especially true when there's 1-2 survivors, giving the killer much more killing efficiency than they should have and padding their stats, leading to weird matchmaking.

    While it is true that bloodlusting will lose the killer the game, it is not true at lower skill levels, and it is also not true when the killer uses it to zone out survivors to guarantee a kill. We have no idea how MMR was calculated, but if it was calculated through chase times, this would lead to less chase time as the killer would have to ultimately spend more time downing the survivor chasing them normally instead of bloodlusting at a single tile, if it was calculated through kills, this would give a killer an unfair kill, which would skew their skill level.

    Chasing down one survivor, bloodlusting them, then hooking them and camping them until they died is not skillful, but according to an MMR system based around chasing and killing, it would be. Bloodlust also affects certain killers differently, which also makes things much worse in terms of determining player skill. Trapper relies more heavily on bloodlust than nurse does, but a 3k trapper and a 3k nurse are the same in the MM's eyes. Remove bloodlust and that same trapper is now a 2k trapper and the nurse still a 3k nurse.

    Please explain how bloodlust would not affect MMR.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member Posts: 208
    edited November 2020

    "We have no idea how MMR is calculated."

    Almost certainly not through chase duration. That would be a completely asinine metric to base an MMR system on.

    " Chasing down one survivor, bloodlusting them, then hooking them and camping them until they died is not skillful"

    It depends on context. Bloodlust is actually not that an impactful mechanic at rank 1 (you need to start a chase from over 100 meters away for Rank 1 to give you a SECOND on the survivor over open ground), and at rank 3 your probably not getting a lot of kills because, you know, you lose the match. But bloodlusting in a 2v1 with 4 gens active is not only not 'low skill' because you needed to play extremely well to get that benefit, but your also using your time effectively as a killer devoting a large chase time to closing out the kill. An MMR system that is based on chase time would be utterly broken because not every chase a killer is in is about getting a swift down, and it would result in killers who are extremely effective at survivor pressure being rated as 'low MMR.'

    The idea of MMR being based off 'snapshot events' in the game goes against how ELO systems are traditionally designed, which is why I can almost guarantee you this is not why the Bloodlust test occurred.

    The system is almost certainly looking at emblem rates and kill rates, not how fast chases are, because there are a lot of fantastic reasons for a chase to last a really long time even for a good killer. We don't know EXACTLY how it does this or what it values, but an MMR system that highly valued fast chases (outside what the chaser emblem gives you, but bloodlust wouldn't 'mess with the stats' there at all because using bloodlust to get downs is antithetical to good emblem performance overall and thus would not mess up an MMR ranking system that valued good performance on emblems) would inevitably be cripplingly flawed because it values something other than what the player is trying to optimize.

    It would be like trying to calculate Chess ELO based on how fast a player took the opponent's queen.

  • konchokkonchok Member Posts: 641

    Matchmaking is "off" because the survivor queues are flooded. Flooded queues have a very noticeable effect of the kinds of survivors that you play against because the matchmaking can't find a group so it expands what range is acceptable and you get odd behavior like a group of red ranks going verses a green rank where usually match making wouldn't be so harsh.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member Posts: 208
    edited November 2020

    We can be fairly sure that the MM system isn't looking 'inside the game' because that isn't how MM systems generally work.

    ELO and other skill rating systems deliberately avoid looking 'inside' the games and making assumption about skill because these simple algorithms can't make judgement calls on when something was a good idea. For example, in GENERAL, taking powerful pieces early in Chess means your a stronger player, but there are so many situations where good players will willingly 'trade down' in order to get a better position that trying to evaluate how good a player is using that metric *at all* is a very bad one.

    Instead, ELO systems and the like look at the end result and how consistently you can achieve it. If you can, by definition your a strong player, and you don't need to program an algorithm that can evaluate nuanced high level strategies of a complex game to do it.

    In the case of DBD, ELO evaluating chase time or how often you win chases as a method of determining how good a killer you are would be bad because, again, it assumes an instrumental goal done in play is the goal that is being optimized. But killers aren't optimizing how often they win chases each match, they are trying to win the match overall via kills or the emblem system. So we can be fairly sure that is what the MMR system values. Otherwise you will get the MMR system saying things like 'This killer chased two survivors, and only downed one" or 'This killer chased a survivor and then broke off when they got to a jungle gym and realized they were being baited off the gens, losing the chase" which will result in it assuming highly skilled killers doing things like pressuring multiple survivors at once or maintaining pressure on gens at the expense of losing a chase are 'bad killers' when in reality these are high skill plays.

    The game already has (helpfully numerical) scores to track how good you did as a killer that don't assume things about your playstyle: Emblems and, to a lesser extent, kills vs escape rates. We can assume the MMR system is valuing those two things. I can't say with 100% certainty the MMR system isn't looking at chase lengths or victories, but I will say that even for BHVR I am 99.999% certain that the MMR system doesn't give a fiddly dee about that because it would A; be way more work, and B; BHVR already clearly understands breaking off chases sometimes is good because they literally programmed that into the Chaser emblem.

  • FrekiFreki Member Posts: 1,541

    match making is NOT off. it is how it has been historically. if it takes a while to find a match the system widens the search for the match so you see larger +/- range

    this is pure conspiracy theory and honestly is not backed up by anything. when someone claims NDA when asked for evidence 99.999% of the time there is none.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member Posts: 208

    I have been under NDA with game companies. This dude is not under an NDA with BHVR because tossing out 'theories' related to information you have through NDA is a fantastic way to very visibly violate your NDA.

  • kolosovskikolosovski Member Posts: 33

    Bloodlust can be used to close the distance before attacking on any killer, yes. I did not said that otherwise anywhere and that was not your original claim. You are just trying to find errors in my reply by making them up.

    I simply stated the fact that it does not affects a killer power at all as you claimed "Hillbilly gains from bloodust as he is able to make curves with it better, same with leatherface." Bloodlust has no offect on the ability to make curves in either killer. It does not makes the chainsaw animation faster or different at all, that is all I said.

    It's amazing that someone who wants to discuss the bloodlust mechanic does not even know precisely how it works.

  • konchokkonchok Member Posts: 641

    I agree with you. I don't agree with OP. I was simply saying that due to the changes to BL more people are playing survivor and matchmaking is acting the way that matchmaking acts when a queue gets flooded. (This behavior happens every Friday night)

  • keygunkeygun Member Posts: 311

    Not even joking, what mmr system?

    The one where I'm a rank 16 killer facing red and people...




  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    You do know that if MMR takes account of the emblem system, chases are 25% of the emblems you can earn.

    I also brought that up as one possibility among many. Bloodlust certainly affects kill rates as I have pointed out.

    With bloodlust, you can secure your 3k and 4k much easier because you don't need to worry about gens being rushed, and if there's 2 survivors left you can make the conscious choice to guarantee a 3k instead of risking a 2k by utilizing bloodlust 3. So I got a 2k, and I can pad my stats by guaranteeing a 3k through bloodlust 3, does this make me a 3k killer in terms of MMR?

    Lets say that the system weighs emblems more than kills. If I down all survivors at the start of a match and kill them all, am I a bad killer? According to the emblem system I am, even though I was so good, I decimated an entire team.

    This game is not chess, and comparing it to chess is meaningless, since there is a clear win condition in chess.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member Posts: 208

    "You do know that if MMR takes account of the emblem system, chases are 25% of the emblems you can earn."

    Right, and?

    "With bloodlust, you can secure your 3k and 4k much easier because you don't need to worry about gens being rushed, and if there's 2 survivors left you can make the conscious choice to guarantee a 3k instead of risking a 2k by utilizing bloodlust 3. So I got a 2k, and I can pad my stats by guaranteeing a 3k through bloodlust 3, does this make me a 3k killer in terms of MMR?"

    Your calling "Achieving the only victory condition of the killer as "padding your stats."

    Again, that is like saying, after you take most of your opponent's pieces in chess, that your going to 'pad your stats' by getting a checkmate.

    An MMR system that assumes players playing intelligently are 'bad players' because you think a tool they are using to do it is unfair is the height of silliness and is absolutely not how MMR systems are designed because doing so results in MMR systems that 'lie' about how good players are.

    If a killer plays exceptionally well to the point *the survivors cannot possibly escape them* which allows them to burn 30+ seconds of time on a single chase? That isn't 'padding stats' and trying to pretend that killer is 'bad' for focusing down survivors is downright silly. Your acting like the killer didn't 'earn' the last two kills when they absolutely clearly did, or that they shouldn't tunnel down survivors when the survivors aren't pressuring gens.

    Again, pressure management is like... the foundational mechanic of all of killer play. Your imagining that a good killer is one who can close loops quickly but that absolutely isn't the case, which is why its ONLY 25% of the ranking system that deals directly with winning chases, and, again, that emblem deliberately was designed to not punish killers who couldn't fully down a survivor quickly because that is ultimately not a super critical killer skill in the grand scheme of killer gameplay.

    "This game is not chess, and comparing it to chess is meaningless, since there is a clear win condition in chess."

    There is a clear win condition in DBD!

    Furthermore, the Chess ELO system is the basis for most ranking systems in the world for a reason: it doesn't CARE if its chess or not. It cares about win rates and loss rates (And you can do more to 'add onto' it, but its ALWAYS based on 'after the fact' information).

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 3,015

    I still fail to see what Bloodlust has to do with the MMR system.

    Bloodlust doesn’t mean = Bad Killer. Bloodlust is indeed needed in some cases. Like when there is an abundance of pallets around a very strong set up. It has nothing to do with the player being “good or bad”.

    They already stated they would be looking at bloodlust upon the updates of maps and loops. We don’t need a conspiracy theory to try and dig into it.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    Hatch exists, so do keys.

    In a 2k situation, I can either try to kill the last two survivors, allowing them time to do gens or find keys, or I can guarantee a kill against one survivor by bloodlusting them. If bloodlust didn't exist, my 3k would be less of a guarantee, as it is quite easy to run a killer in a 2k situation for long enough for the other player to do gens, taking advantage of near infinites which are plentiful in our current game state.

    The killer hasn't earned a 4k if they get a 2k in a reasonable amount of time. Since hatch exists, the odds of even getting a 4k are very highly stacked against the killer. You can hide all game as survivor and just wait for hatch to spawn, according to an MMR system, that would be skillful play.

    There actually is no clear cut win condition in DBD. The devs have stated that a 2k is generally a tie, but the emblem system does not reflect this. You can get a 4k and depip / black pip, being a huntress main, a good 30-40% of my games end like this. According to the emblem system, I'm a low skilled killer. If MMR is weighted against both emblems and kills, there's a disparity.

  • ZaKzanZaKzan Member Posts: 511

    I meant exactly what I said.

    You can reach the perfect point where you can curve with bloodlust faster than without it. You can reach the point where you can safely chainsaw as leatherface faster with bloodlust than without it. This is the difference between downing a survivor and getting map pressure to win the game, and absolutely losing the game with a 0k.

    Do you not understand how fractions of a second matter in this game? That's why dead hard is such a strong perk. The issue isn't that I don't know how bloodlust works, the issue is that you don't know how the game works.

  • kolosovskikolosovski Member Posts: 33

    Ok kid I get it, you are always right and everyone else is always wrong. Keep making up those facts, very mature of you. If you are so sure that's how bloodlust affects powers, then it's certainly not me who doesn't know how the game works. Great argumentation by the way. Have a nice sunday.

Sign In or Register to comment.