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I feel like the lack of empathy holds this game back.

And I'm not talking about the perk, (on a side note, I actually really like Empathy) I'm talking about how against the biased mains of one side are against the other.

No matter what BHVR does sometimes, they always lose. And I'm not making this a huge "Oh, BHVR are a godsend" they make mistakes, a lot, but sometimes even if they do good things they never win.

For example, this patch: Clown got buffed. It may not be the best rework, but it is all around a buff. A much shorter reload, and a slight way of making his way across the map? Wraith got buffed. He needs more, but it's a start.

Trapper got a nerf/buff. At least people won't get out on the first goddamn try anymore (most of the time.)

But because Undying got nerfed, all everyone is talking about is how survivor biased the Dev's are. When they Buffed three killers. Or at least, buffed two and half buffed one other.

Another thing is the biased members of each side hate when either side have a useful perk. All the nerf BBQ posts recently because I guess the multitude of counters to the perk are just too hard to do. Or the people that hate DH. DH is annoying as all hell, but at the end of the day I'm okay with it. DH for distance is the only thing I think is slightly unfair about the perk. Most of the time, it doesn't work if they have nothing to DH for distance to.

Solo-Queue is 100% the hardest thing in this game, and I think it really brings out the bias in the sides. There are killers that seem to think just because SWF exists, the problems with Solo Queue don't matter. Then the biased survivor mains thing because of how hard Solo Queue is, the only answer is to nerf every single killer and killer perk into the ground, when (imo) the real answer is just to buff Solo Queue. Nerfing things just makes one side less and less fun.

Speaking of SWF- It's important for the game. I used to think it didn't have a place in the game, but I've slowly realized... People just want to play with their friends sometimes. Yeah, SWF Sweat Squads suck but because there are Sweat Squads doesn't mean we have to punish the people who just wanna play with their friends.

Both sides have unbalanced things. I never really cared about Undying, because I learned a long time ago to not give a single ######### when it comes to the game, but I (as someone who plays Killer more) also understand the grievances with it. Against Solo Queue, it was debilitating.

I hate DS with a passion, for two reasons. I hate the free progression it tends to give, and I hate the fact that as an anti-tunnel tool, it barely works. A killer who really wants to tunnel will just power through DS easy-peasy. While DS is annoying, I also understand that getting tunneled is one of the most unfun things in this game. A perk like DS needs to exist.

Sorry for this rambly-ass post, I just hate the lack of empathy I see so often in this community. There are problems with this game, but I feel like they could be solved if we could all just stop being babies.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.



  • NomiNomadNomiNomad Member Posts: 2,680

    I'm not saying the disappointment is unjustified. Personally, I feel like Clown's rework is the worst they've ever done. And I never really cared about Undying, because I knew it was gonna get nerfed from day one. I feel the nerf was a bit too extreme, but again - that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about the rampant, blatant bias that's so common pretty much everywhere the game is talked about. Bias holds balance back.

    The disappointment is definitely justified. But as a basis, I don't feel BHVR is Survivor or Killer biased, I think they just work too goddamn slow.

  • NomiNomadNomiNomad Member Posts: 2,680

    I also feel like it's 'not really smart' to assume the community doesn't do anything for a game. The community is the driving force behind balance changes, behind the entire game. Without the community, there is no game. Yes, every game has bitching, but this game really has an issue because of the inherent "Us vs Them" of an asymmetrical game.

    So yeah, BHVR makes the changes, but they make the changes in regards to the community. Ruin was changed because it only impacted the low ranks of the community,

    The only reason No Man's Sky was changed because of people. If nobody complained, I doubt it would've been changed.

  • vacamanvacaman Member Posts: 1,140

    I unironically think that this might be the problem, they shouldn't listen to the community because we don't even know what we want, the only thing we really want for the game is to be fun and balanced (and maybe not even that). We don't really know what is going to make it better and we are highly biased because we usually play one side more than the other, plus the people that make noise are a very small portion of the playerbase. They should use their data to balance the game and listen to some suggestions for inspiration. And do a lot more changes, they are sooo slow and feels like they are too scared to do big changes and more frequently.

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 4,027
    edited February 2021

    You mean all the dead zones they added on maps recently? Tell me how dead zones require any kind of skill by the killer.

    You start generalizing by talking like all this game is SWF. Solo players exist, and a lot of you people really love to forget about that.

    I consider myself quite skilled at 4k hours, always playing solo and in red ranks and never once used DS + UNB.

    Undying was UNhealthy for solo Q and there's that.

  • FrostySealFrostySeal Member Posts: 505

    Yeah, the lack of empathy in this community just creates an extremely toxic place.

    I've seen soooo many people who just play one side and could care less about the other side. I've seen killer mains who think every single survivor is a toxic scumbag who will use all the meta perks and tryhard, likewise I've also seen survivors who think every killer tunnels and camps.

    I also agree with you on the whole no matter what BHVR does they're going to get a lot of complaints about it. I don't think they're perfect beings who could never do any wrong but with how this community is BHVR could buff 40 mediocre/bad perks and nerf like, 2 meta perks on survivor or nerf a killer and the community would say "BHVR has a bias against X side!"

    Its seriously annoying and saddening to see. If people would just play the other side and acknowledge the problems with their own side the community would be a much, much better place.

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 4,027

    I never said I care if DS + UNB gets nerfed though. I don't use them.

    This game can't be balanced around SWF.

  • hatchkinghatchking Member Posts: 312

    That perk has been in the game for almost 5 years

  • NomiNomadNomiNomad Member Posts: 2,680

    Well, I already mentioned it in another post, but the reason they barely balance is that they're making too much new content. They are constantly working on new killers, on new perks, on new maps. They just don't have time to balance.

  • NomiNomadNomiNomad Member Posts: 2,680


    It irritates me when because Solo Queue has problems, a persons first response is "make one whole side of this game have less fun by nerfing every single killer and killer perk imaginable."

    Or, like I already said, when people act like every SWF is a death squad who comes in there wanting to bully and t-bag, when most of the time they're just friends trying to have fun.

    People don't care about the other side, because with them it's always "sUrViVoR bAd, KiLlEr GoOd" or vice versa. It's like those people don't realize that there are people on that side that play this game for fun. Or they just don't care.

  • YordsYords Member Posts: 5,549

    I think that it is more of BHVR's incompetence rather than the community being very negative. They are a multimillion-dollar company and they can't seem to fix their game. Each patch we get there is hardly any new content, we get more bug fixes. I know it seems a little hypocritical for me to say that it is BHVR rather than the negative community since I myself have laced them before, but I do have a point. How can a multimillion-dollar company with a successful game for the past 5 years not manage to fix core issues that its own community has been complaining about; for 4-5 years.

    This clown buff IMO, was not that great. They had several months (I think over a year?) to come up with a fix to clown's power, and they thought of something that can speed up the clown and sometimes survivors every once in a while in a match. This was just a really lazy idea and the most disappointing part is that I know for a fact BHVR will just bring this to the live servers and say "yeah, this was good enough". They are always doing the bare minimum, just look at the "tutorial" we have.

  • OniWantsYourMacaroniOniWantsYourMacaroni Member Posts: 5,795

    I'm sorry but i don't buy that excuse.

    They could easily just ask the community for their ideas on how to change some perks and look and test what would be the best/easiest change.

    Or maybe they could use their fogwhisperers for more than just marketing and try to involve them in their balancing.

    They need to realize that balancing needs the company AND the community.

    Like come on,they really needed 1,5 years to realize that Fixated should also work when injured?Sorry but that's just pathetic.

  • NomiNomadNomiNomad Member Posts: 2,680

    I don't buy it either, I just think it's the most likely reason they take so long to balance things. BHVR has a problem with not talking to their community very often, and a problem with taking a very long time to fix things.

  • stvnhthrstvnhthr Member Posts: 624
    edited February 2021

    A lot of people who play are straight up a$$holes. They don't care about other people. They don't care if it is fun for others, they are pathetic people. I think we need the existing ranking system, but we also need user feedback displayed. If someone has a history of being a jerk to others it would be nice if that showed in their ratings. I would like to know if I'm facing a fair killer or a cheap douchebag. I can be toxic, but I choose not to be unless the killer reveals himself in game to be a jerk. Then it is 100% toxicity for you.

    The game by design feeds a certain type of personality. There are some real weirdos who love the power fantasy of being a serial killer who inflicts pain. Unless you are playing rank one against swf it is so much easier to play killer. I wish the game would address this and add some balance. The killer mains who wine about it being a survivors heavy game must really really really suck. I suck as a killer but I always get at least 3k and that is without trying and not using perks.

  • Karao_KeKarao_Ke Member Posts: 1,206

    The reason why the devs are usually blamed so much is because they are the only ones who can actually make changes to this game, and a lot of times they let echo chambers cloud their judgment and end up nerfing things that don't need to be nerfed, survivor or killer.

    There is nothing we can do but complain as a community and call them out on the mistakes they sometimes make because otherwise they won't change. I'll bet you money that BBQ gets nerfed in the near future because survivors keep complaining about it even though it has a easy counter (getting into a locker for like 2 seconds).

    That leads to my next point, which is how are killers not supposed to see the devs as survivor-biased? Almost every decision they make seems to point towards that direction. I'm not saying that they never nerf survivor perks, but it seems like they always nerf killers/and their perks even more.

    Why the hell is Undying getting nerfed to the ground & DS/OoO isn't even though its been complained about for a long time now? Didn't survivors wants more objectives anyway? I just dont understand the mentality.

    Disclaimer: I will say that the devs should not be shamed & harassed because they try their best to make everyone happy even if it sometimes doesn't work out like that.

  • OniWantsYourMacaroniOniWantsYourMacaroni Member Posts: 5,795

    They just choose to not spend enough ressources on important matters.

    They know that they don't really have to try because there's pretty much 0 competition and they abuse that.

    That's pretty much it.

  • EuphoricBliss35EuphoricBliss35 Member Posts: 876

    Undying and Ruin still works. It simply prevents Ruin from lasting to totem 5. That’s unnecessary, and is the primary reason they changed ruin to begin with (no free pressure). Giving extended pressure with undying is fine. It also now gives longer life to lullaby, devour hope, etc because you don’t lose stacks when undying is broken.

    Life, like this game, is not black or white. It’s not “nerf or buff.” It was changed and rebalanced. That’s all. The sky is not falling.


    Back to the OP. Well said. I don’t have anything to add or say beyond I second your sentiments fully

  • EvanSnowWolfEvanSnowWolf Member Posts: 1,583

    And Almo flat out said: "I don't care about Decisive Strike."

    Something something statistics.

  • PigEmpressPigEmpress Member Posts: 79

    If we want to create more empathy players should be forced to play Killer for every 4-5 games they play as a survivor. I learned to empathize a lot with killers after I started playing one. It would also help with the waiting times and regenerate some of the killer pool. I wouldn't mind playing a killer for every 4-5 games I get in as a survivor.

  • vacamanvacaman Member Posts: 1,140

    Well that's just speculation that they don't have time (600 employees btw). I agree they should focus on balance rather than on new content but i genuinly don't feel like they are getting overworked unless they got spagetthi code, in wich case they better start working on DBD 2 with better design from the ground.

  • PigEmpressPigEmpress Member Posts: 79

    Yeah, I don't buy that they are overworked with the current release rate and 600 employees(I have worked at smaller big time studios with better release rate than this). All of the graphics are last gen, the engine is very basic, and the arena is so limited that there ain't much to do except redo the map entirely if anything is needed.

    Most likely they have a skeleton crew working on DBD while the rest is working on new projects(ie. new titles or ports). That's the standard MO for game studios like these. Only time you have a large proportion of the employees dedicated to a single ongoing title is in MMO type games.

    My guess is that we are halfway to getting DBD2 rather than a proper overwork of the current one.

  • DarKaronDarKaron Member Posts: 613

    Here's my 3 and 1/4 cents on the matter:

    As a Killer Main, I actually empathize with Solo Survivors quite a lot.

    Tunnelcamping sucks, period. It just does.

    Sometimes it's unintentional, and there's just nothing you can do about it.

    But on the whole, I feel like Solo needs a buff to SWF level, and then we can buff Killers across the board to match that new level.

    The fact that they didn't even consider this still baffles me to this day.

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 4,027

    Imo that goes for both sides. If more killers played solo q survivor maybe they would think twice before hooking the person who was just farmed off hook without BT etc

  • TerroTerro Member Posts: 1,171
    edited February 2021

    The first fix to solo queue is a working matchmaking system.

    As for the killer buffs. Apparently ppl consider clown a nerf because the add-ons were changed as well and the buffs that were given don't compensate.

    Trapper is more of a neutral change but it really depends on the numbers they put.

    Wraith is a net buff.

  • PigEmpressPigEmpress Member Posts: 79

    I play mostly survivor* and used to get really mad when killers were slugging, tunneling, or camping me. Then I tried killer and suddenly I couldn't get mad anymore. If anything I try to say "gg" to every killer I play against just to be that one bright spot in a sea of toxic survivors.

    *My play time is about 90% survivor and 10% killer. However, that 10% negative experience is enough for me to be an apologist when someone camps, tunnels, or slugs me.

  • PatienceheroPatiencehero Member Posts: 54

    No argument here - solo queue survivors have it fairly rough. It's why while I personally do feel devs are survivor biased (mostly due to the reaction time to survivor problems vs. killer problems), I also recognize that non-swf also gets a raw deal, and the biggest change I lobby for is just putting voice chat in the game and balancing around it.

    Killers aren't the only ones getting the short end of the stick when it comes to wishy-washy balance.

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