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Saying "just do totems" to people who complain about NO ED is lazy and dumb advice that lacks nuance


Doing this in a SWF is easy as you can say how many totems have been done. On top of that, in the case of some hex perks like NO ED, you can 99% some gens or delay completing all gens until all totems are done to prevent it.

It's a different story in solo queue. You can't prevent anyone from doing generators no matter how much you try. Even if you are relatively familiar with totem spawns and are actively wanting to look for totems, you have no way of knowing how many are done by other survivors without individually checking where each totem is, wasting your time and pretty much not doing any objectives, particularly generators. Also, multiple maps have dreadful totem spawns that are difficult to find, particularly Swamp. On top of that, you still have many totem spots that cannot even be cleansed and they're glitched.

Even with Small Game and a map with add ons, you still have to roam around the map wasting so much unnecessary time that you might as well have done generators, so perks in particular don't help out that much in many scenarios. Detective's Hunch is awesome but not consistent unless the team gets generators done, and it's still a ######### situation to have to bring a perk dedicated to totems because of what I just said. It's like telling a killer player who doesn't like DS to play The Executioner if they don't like DS so much and to get over it. Or saying "just wait 60 seconds 🤪."

It's analogous to if there was a survivor perk that gave 25% bonus repair speed as long as there were breakable walls up and simply telling the killer "jUSt BreAk wAlls." For all you know they could have prove thyself and a good toolbox they found out of a chest. I don't understand how people don't get this.

Any time wasted not pressuring survivors is giving them free pressure on you, and the inverse is true as well: wasting time running around the map for several minutes doing totems is giving the killer free pressure.

It's just ######### advice that lacks any context. You're giving the killer free pressure for a perk they may or may not have, and in some cases it's not even worth trying to cleanse totems because of how the game is going. So when people complain about no ed and hex perks in general and just respond with a snarky response of "JuST dO tOtemS", it strikes me as actually not understanding the nuances of what they're talking about.

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Comments

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491
    edited February 2021

    I don't get what significance you citing playing both sides has...it's irrelevant for the most part.

    The problem with your solution is that many people in solo queue don't bother doing totems, even in red ranks. I used to run detective's hunch/small game as my general build and 90% of the time I was the only one doing at least 3/5 totems and most of the time all 5, and I typically did not do them fast, either.

    The issue isn't so much the words behind "just do bones" but the sass behind it. It lacks context of actually playing the game, because playing solo queue everyone can witness the lack of quality of teammates. If they suck in looping, aren't efficient on gens, and do dumb saves and whatnot, what suddenly is going to compel them to do totems? Right: nothing. They should know, but they don't, so your explanation is hypothetical and not actually realistic. If it was realistic, undying+ruin would be a non issue as totems could be knocked out relatively fast.

    I can easily say to someone who doesn't like DS "just wait 60 seconds" because that genuinely is the counter. But there's obviously more nuance behind the annoyance of DS, and similar in this instance.

    I don't see what past NO ED discussions have on my topic.

    I'm not sure if you actually read my OP because I already discussed what you talk about. Memorising totem spawns help, but that doesn't alleviate the problem of solo queue that people very often do not do totems, hence why undying was such an issue. Not doing generators is giving the killer free pressure. On top of that, memorising totem spawns isn't precise; they can spawn in a variety of areas, especially on some maps that have multi-levels.

    Also again, you seemed to actually have not read what I said, because if you did I did not discuss about the perk needing to be removed or whatever. It was talking about how in solo queue people do not do generators and as a result you (the player who actually cares about totems) trying to do them gets punished as a result (giving the killer free pressure).

    Like thanks for the response but if you're actually going to engage in the conversation I would appreciate actually reading the subject. You pretty much reiterated a lot of what I already said and it's not a rebuttal to anything I said in actuality. Like you talk about it being a survivor issue and if you actually read what I said...I pretty much exclusively talk about survivors making it worse, not talking about how the perk functions itself.

    Really wonky people are giving thumbs up to responses that show the person didn't read more than two sentences of my op lol

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491

    Oversimplification, and not my point.


    I highlighted how even when memorising totem spawns, you are still not doing the foremost objective: doing generators. You are giving the killer free pressure for a perk they may or may not have.

    Survivors do not do totems either in my experience. Having to manually check each totem is wasting even more time as you don't know how many totems were done in solo queue.

    The conversation is not about should NO ED be changed. It's about the sassy response of "just do totems" when it's not always, and often not that simple, particularly in solo queue. The response in and of itself is not inherently sassy but when people complain about NO ED and whatnot and get mocked at as if it's their individual fault not all five totems were done when it's meant to be a team experience, and it's often not. That's my point.

    Similar logic of "just do bones" can be applied to killers have ire about DS. I can simply say "just wait 60 seconds" or "eat the ds so they don't have it anymore". That's technically the solution to DS as killer, just as "just do bones" is to survivor, but as we can very clearly see the conversation around DS was more nuanced than that because it actually is simple as "wait 60 seconds or eat ds" in every single game.

    Your response isn't really rebutting or sharing new information either, as I basically already stated survivor teammates in solo queue are a very large part of the problem. There was no discussion about NO ED as a perk, and I'm not sure why you brought that up in your first response.

    Lastly, my point about "not sure if they have it or not" is that it's wasting time for something that should be a simple team effort, but often is not. It's not a complaint about not knowing the killer's perks. Sometimes it's easy to tell if a killer has NO ED or not, and sometimes when I presume a killer has NO ED, they actually don't.

    The point is simply to highlight how "just do totems" is not that simple when you are often in contact with teammates who never do them and you are pretty much subjected to doing almost all of them if not all yourself, on top of having to do every other objective like save/heal/do generators and strategise. Because if "just do totems" is going to be infantilised to such a degree then I'm going to pretty much just say "wait 60 seconds" to anyone who complains about DS because the counter is easy on paper.

  • DustinDustin Member Posts: 1,769
    edited February 2021

    Your response isn't really rebutting or sharing new information either, as I basically already stated survivor teammates in solo queue are a very large part of the problem.

    To be honest same goes for you - Nothing new is being said and that's why I mentioned the first part of my post. Nothing new is being discussed and I'm giving it to you straight.

    To clarify

    First part of my post addresses the mentality you made the thread with

    Second part addresses and summarizes the actual context of your post.

    In fact I'll quote @Moundshroud above

     I probably should just say "Do Bones" whenever I see posts like yours, because wasting time on explaining it to some of you is very frustrating. Why? You made your decision before you even wrote your post. You are looking for excuses. I hate to say this, because I'd rather think the best of everyone, but you are arguing with us simply because you are being willfully ignorant.

    If this wasn't the intention I'll be honest with you that's the immediate impression I got from your thread. Which is again why the first part of my post is there otherwise it would have just been the second paragraph with possibly more parts to it.

    Similar logic of "just do bones" can be applied to killers have ire about DS. I can simply say "just wait 60 seconds" or "eat the ds so they don't have it anymore". That's technically the solution to DS as killer, just as "just do bones" is to survivor, but as we can very clearly see the conversation around DS was more nuanced than that because it actually is simple as "wait 60 seconds or eat ds" in every single game.

    Yeah? So what's the problem. If you suspect they have Decisive Strike then wait the 60 seconds?

    The real issue with Decisive Strike wasn't even 60 seconds of no hooking it was the fact that the perk was far more abuseable when BHVR is intending for it to be an anti tunneling perk. If you're doing objectives you're not getting tunneled but some survivors will use this to make sure the killer can't build up momentum. Do I see it as fair strategy? Yes. However I feel you don't fully understand the difference between those two perks.

    With NOED you can prevent it from activating in the first place.

    With Decisive Strike you have to constantly respect that a survivor may have the perk unless there are no obsessions. You could argue that in a way it's easier to play around this way compared to NOED which has no tell but again you can generally tell based on what killer is being played and how they're playing. This comes with experience.

    The better comparison was recently Pop Goes The Weasel's timer was nerfed because killers had too much time to do other things and still use it when that's been the issue with DS this whole time.

    See unlike a lot of people I have no issue playing around perks or the idea that they may be in the game. It's just understanding the current meta as stale as it is and knowing the game. This is really a black and white issue of -

    Do totems - If that's not working likely your team or yourself isn't pulling enough weight.

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491
    edited February 2021

    Your condescension is boring. I don't even know you either but yet you're acting like you do. The way people try to act elitist on this game is...something.

    My topic isn't founded on being a totem problem in the slightest. Yes, very obviously I wrote the issue with totems is from other survivors, not on the mechanics of how totems work. That changes nothing about what I said.

    Elaborate to me where I said it was totem issues? The only thing that comes close to that is totem glitches, which are rare, and that was far from being my central point, and it's an irrelevant addition.

    I also never said totems need to be reworked or anything. Never said the devs need to fix it either.

    You're trying to make this hard-to-swallow advice but you're doing nothing but reiterating what I said and then slapping a "this is going to be difficult for you" vibe to it, which is a bit pretentious.

    People still are not understanding the prime topic at hand. I'll requote myself:

    The conversation is not about should NO ED be changed. It's about the sassy response of "just do totems" when it's not always, and often not that simple, particularly in solo queue. The response in and of itself is not inherently sassy but when people complain about NO ED and whatnot and get mocked at as if it's their individual fault not all five totems were done when it's meant to be a team experience, and it's often not. That's my point.

    I'm used to solo queue teammates being trite. There's nothing to adapt to. Doesn't mean I can't complain about it.

  • ChurchofPigChurchofPig Member Posts: 2,578

    Yeah yeah we've heard this about a million times at this point and we all know it's false. "Only easy and valid in swf. Hard and invalid for solo." Just move on and find something else to complain about.

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491

    The response isn't new because I'm simply stating you're not bringing in any new information and reiterating what I said. You responded to my thread initially with a mix of irrelevant information and then paraphrased information of what I already said, and bringing no new discussion points.

    Saying "Do Bones" is just a way to finally admit - Look, I'm tired of having this conversation about NOED. The conversation never goes anywhere and the most insightful topic about NOED has been the debate on whether BHVR should add a Totem Counter. Then that leads to should Dull Totems do something else and the conversation dies there. Every other topic about NOED is usually just a survivor biased player complaining that the killer utilized a perk in the roster when you can shut the perk down relatively easily and play around it. The only thing that usually makes this perk excel is when a survivor lacks map knowledge (Totem Spawns) or doesn't assume the killer might have an ace in the hole for later in this case being NOED.

    First of all, you aren't in any place to tell me what my intentions are for making the thread. Let's discuss the rest:

    • You being tired of the conversation is irrelevant
    • Your opinion of "it doesn't go anywhere" of other NO ED topics is irrelevant
    • bringing up totem counter when I never talked about that
    • bringing up other alternatives to what dull totems to do which I never talked about that
    • brought up "survivor bias" when I never blamed killer players for anything and I purely blamed survivors

    So what are you on mate? You judged erroneously based on past NO ED topics.

    If this wasn't the intention I'll be honest with you that's the immediate impression I got from your thread. Which is again why the first part of my post is there otherwise it would have just been the second paragraph with possibly more parts to it.

    Let's see here: you co-sign a post calling me ignorant but yet you lot did nothing but reiterate what I already said. Interesting.

    Also not sure what excuses you're talking about...? What I wrote is pretty simple but it seems like you lot are having a hard time understanding, and you're superimposing irrelevant information for whatever reason

    You talk about me not understanding what the perks are, yet you are slapping BS about DS. Devs never said it was intended to be anti-tunnel:

    Mind you, this was in response to a thread titled: "Have the devs confirmed ds is supposed to be a "anti tunnel perk"?"

    I made my point simple, and you lot are talking about something else that's pretty irrelevant and I'm about done trying to parse through it since my point is pretty easy to understand. I will requote what I said as a summary of the general topic:

    The conversation is not about should NO ED be changed. It's about the sassy response of "just do totems" when it's not always, and often not that simple, particularly in solo queue. The response in and of itself is not inherently sassy but when people complain about NO ED and whatnot and get mocked at as if it's their individual fault not all five totems were done when it's meant to be a team experience, and it's often not. That's my point.

    And topics are repeated all the time on this forum. I'm going to talk about what I feel like, not my problem if you have an issue with it.

    You can move on and go to another thread and complain about something else instead of being snippy about a topic you don't like. The irony of complaining about complaining.

  • ChurchofPigChurchofPig Member Posts: 2,578

    @kyogul I wasn't being bitchy. I was just saying we've seen this same post a million times at this point. Instead of making everything sound like a complaint how about you just read the freaking comment like a normal human being. Thank you and have a nice day.

    I don't care that it's repeated, I just meant (in a really weird way) you shouldn't expect to get more people on your side of the argument when you aren't bringing any new information to the table. Repeating the same information isn't going to get you anywhere.

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491

    Not sure why my other post was deleted but apparently it's still readable (?). I'll give it some time and retype part of it maybe

    You were being quite snippy, and for no good reason.

    I don't care how many times you've seen it. Topics are repeated all the time on this forum and in the community in general. I'm going to talk about what I feel like and if you don't like it then move on. You didn't do that and instead tried to be patronising and catty, meanwhile failing to realise your irony of complaining about complaining.

    What you initially said isn't indicative of your supposed point in the slightest. Either way, the conversation wasn't about getting people on my side, it was more of a brain dump and then discuss.

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491

    Gotcha, then I'll also call the people who complain about DS and get pissed off because of it lazy, dumb, and entitled because when I play in red ranks I never have an issue with it and I can easily avoid it. If I can avoid it, everyone else can too and they shouldn't have a problem because I said so and my experience superimposes everyone else's.

  • KlakkyKlakky Member Posts: 444

    Well devs said just do bones...

    It's a side objective it's fine as is, I solo q and I'm usually the only one doing totems, but every now and then I find broken totems on the floor... That's how u count totems on solo q....

    If u can't see broken totems then maybe u shouldn't play this game competitively and complain?

    And no u have enough time to search for totems while doing gens, just don't gen rush and look around the gen, that's where the totems are most of the time, rest of them u should find on the way to another gen

  • VolczVolcz Member Posts: 735

    DS is abuseable. Thats why its getting nerfed. The only ones who are complaining about this nerf are bad survivors who relied on it as a crutch and abused it. Not even in the same ball park as destroying dull totems in preparation for NOED. If you want to focus gens and dive bombing your teammates for easy points, you do that. But if you get to end-game and NOED pops up, you have no one to blame but yourself as well as your teammates.

    Hell, there's been plenty of games where NOED has popped on my team, while 1 person gets hooked, and the 3 of us remaining go back in despite being right at the Exit gates, to find the totem and possibly save the teammate.

    Doing dull totems throughout an entire match vs complaining about DS, a broken perk that people loved to abuse, particularly in SWF, are not the same.

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491

    I don't think you understood the analogy. And you're misinterpreting. Comparing =/= equating.

    Your post was basically "if I can do it and you can't then you're entitled/lazy/dumb" and I can say the same about anything else, and I chose DS as an example. DS is a non issue for me in red ranks. Other perks are however, DS isn't one of them.

  • FrekiFreki Member Posts: 1,903

    "Do bones" is not for one person but all 4 survivors to do. that is the fallacy you and others have. the TEAM needs to do bones and it's quick. hey ran past a totem, take 12 seconds to drop it and then you're on the gen right next to it. 4 people do this only one other totem needs be done and it'll be fine. what you see as lazy is actually lazy mental processing of what is needed because the term "Just Do Bones" is directed at the 4 person survivor team not you....

  • EntitySpawnEntitySpawn Member Posts: 3,717

    Noed is fine, its weak, only happens at the end of a match not to mention it isn't even that common. I'm sure you or someone has used ds as an example which was used every damn game by multiple people and could be used most of the trial. Noed really isn't a big deal, get totems or wait till noed pops then get the totem or leave, bothers you so much then run a perk or something to get totems. There comes a time when you need to learn to counter it yourself, give up your meta perk slots or just straight up deal with it and accept Escaping isn't important, doesn't show skill or even mean anything

  • ChurchofPigChurchofPig Member Posts: 2,578

    And I'm voicing my opinion of why is this still a topic when we know the answer already. Regardless of if you're solo or swf, you know what a totem looks like and if you aren't in danger and there's a possibility of NOED you also know how to break it. I've had swf games where we got hit with NOED because we didn't know the location of the last totem. I've also had complete solo q games where we got all 5 totems and NOED didn't activate (Killer had noed according to end screen). The argument of "It's too hard for solo but it's so easy for swf" is ridiculous and dumb. That's my opinion.

  • Slendy4321Slendy4321 Member Posts: 604

    There was an idea I saw and it said expose everyone when NoEd is activated and I feel like that's the only tweak NoEd needs

  • Killing_TimeKilling_Time Member Posts: 641

    Survivors have like 3 or 4 perks that make NOED a none issue. Instead of using the perks, they choose to take the second chance perks.

  • kyogulkyogul Member Posts: 491

    That's precisely my point. And what I said here:

    The conversation is not about should NO ED be changed. It's about the sassy response of "just do totems" when it's not always, and often not that simple, particularly in solo queue. The response in and of itself is not inherently sassy but when people complain about NO ED and whatnot and get mocked at as if it's their individual fault not all five totems were done when it's meant to be a team experience, and it's often not. That's my point.

    To clarify, when I said "...and it's often not", I meant in regards to doing totems is not a team experience when there's only one person predominately doing them, at least in my experience. Not that doing totems in general is not supposed to be a team experience.

    I'm confused? Already when NO ED is activated it makes any living survivor exposed

    tbh you don't even need perks honestly. I only find people are a little more incentivised to do totems if there's a hex before the gens are done, particularly if it's ruin

  • Slendy4321Slendy4321 Member Posts: 604

    Yeah but it will visually show you that you're exposed. Rather than waiting until someone is hit to let them know they're exposed

  • DustinDustin Member Posts: 1,769

    The response isn't new because I'm simply stating you're not bringing in any new information and reiterating what I said. You responded to my thread initially with a mix of irrelevant information and then paraphrased information of what I already said, and bringing no new discussion points.

    As everyone has already told you there's nothing new to bring to the table. Topic has been discussed to death since 2016. The reply was pretty relevant considering the attitude you had and still have you just can't accept it.

    First of all, you aren't in any place to tell me what my intentions are for making the thread

    It's not my fault your post comes off as someone whose only posting to argue for the sake of arguing. Even in your later post you outright say this thread is about people who say "Do Bones" rather than NOED itself. At that point this thread is you complaining about other players which at that point no it really doesn't have a purpose you just need to get thicker skin.

    You being tired of the conversation is irrelevant

    If you understood properly this is referring to the common response of "Do Bones"

    Your opinion of "it doesn't go anywhere" of other NO ED topics is irrelevant

    If you've been here long enough you'd realize it's true - Look at the countless threads about this topic and you'll realize that in fact yes they go no where because people don't know how to put their ego aside.

    bringing up totem counter when I never talked about that

    bringing up other alternatives to what dull totems to do which I never talked about that

    Explaining to you what this conversation usually devolves to - Something that should have been a brief post but again you want to argue for the sake of arguing

    brought up "survivor bias" when I never blamed killer players for anything and I purely blamed survivors

    Again - Explaining to you why this topic is usually dismissed.

    So what are you on mate? You judged erroneously based on past NO ED topics.

    Based on how you post I feel I judged correctly

    I'll just assume you've had a bad day and you can assume I've had one - As I've said though..


    The real answer here is do bones and if that doesn't work someone on your team wasn't pulling their weight. Regarding being offended at the idea of being told to do bones you shouldn't. It's never meant to be a personal slight against you specifically it's literally just people getting so tired of the same 3 varying topics about NOED. This has been an ongoing debate since 2016 to the point where there is genuinely nothing left to add. You can't just go comparing one thing to another either because one game mechanic does not =/= another. A good example is when you brought up breakable walls in your OP. Doing this is just going to set expectations for yourself that cannot be met.

    I do genuinely want you to enjoy the game like I want everyone to. However I'll tell you stop taking such statements to heart because they're not meant to be personal slights. If you feel you can't handle it turn off chat, ignore the forums and enjoy time to yourself or with friends. There's no hidden meaning behind that either I'm genuine when I say that.

  • sulaimansulaiman Member Posts: 2,663

    I always wonder...i play solo survivor 100% of the time, and in most games i get 5 totems done alone if needed. And it doesnt even take to much time, because i do gens, and when i move to the next one, i just check the totem spots on the tile i am on and the tile i move to. Then i do the same after that gen is done. When only one gen is left, i start searching the remaining totems. Yes, it wastes some time, but thats the purpose of that perk. It is meant to slow you down or get punished for ignoring it.

    I just dont get the "it cant be done in solo"-mentality when i can do it perfectly fine on a regular basis. Am i that extraordinare as a survivor?

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