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Why is it so hard for some people to grasp that Trickster doesn't NEED to "look like a killer"?

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  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 12,700
    edited April 2021

    You have a curious perception of people covered in blood carrying actual weapons. :P

  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    I didn't post an image here, so not sure what you are referencing, but I addressed this already. But to restate whats bit said since the first teasers, psychological horror is wonderful. It is some of the strongest and most intrinsically fear inducing genres we have left, as we get desensitized to random brutal murderers and monsters. Hell its not even a new concept, silence of the lambs, psycho, and even modern movies like the invisible man remake aren't necessarily focused on the abilities of someone, but what they do with what is at their disposal, and what they have the potential to do. The concept of the trickster works fine as a horror icon, someone using their influence for predatory purposes is actually really topical as well. So what is the problem with the trickster in dbd? Why do we have this huge issue with him being this neon kpop star? I already said it in the post chain but sure Ill note it again

    Psychological horror is built entirely on two things, suspense and the unknown. Minor spoilers for the invisible man as a heads up, but its just a great recent example. At first we are not even sure if he's real or just her psychoses. For the first third of the run time we do not know the nature of the threat to begin with. As we become more sure that she isn't just crazy, we have to ask what he is willing to do, how far will he go? He stalks her, he tries to make people believe she is insane, make others think shes insane. It draws out slowly, methodically picking her apart over weeks and months, until he finally murders, right in the middle of a crowded area. Everyone I was with jumped out of their seats, it was so unexpected, the stakes elevated instantly and the shock was actually a scary and unexpected interaction. From then on we only have more unknowns, but all predicated on this man who has no limits and will do whatever he wants to achieve his goal, which now on the back end of the run time, we are still not aware of. This is psychological horror. Every interaction is drawn out, we are taken on this journey through the lens of the protagonist. That is the suspense. But then even when the stakes are rising at each major plot point, we still do not know what they are doing, we don't feel like we have control because the protagonist has no control. That is the unknown, what is going on, what can possibly be done to protect ourselves?

    Neither of the two primary aspects of psychological horror CAN transfer to this setting, its just not possible in dbd.

    1. Suspense. Well while killers like ghost face, hag, trapper, myers and even plague will often begin setting up traps through positioning and actual traps, giving some form of progression and sense of suspense as the match unfolds, it will never be constant, it will always turn into an active chase, not a passive building up of fear. In this way, in which the game is constantly in an active state of interaction, there can never really be suspense
    2. Unknown. This is by far the biggest issue. There is no "how far will they go?" there is no "what are they capable of?", you know exactly how far they can and will go. They will try to find you, they will try to down you, they will hook you 3 times. That is what they can and will do, always. You know what they can do, billy and bubba have a chainsaw that down you. Wraith will go invisible. Huntress can throw things. Knowing the capabilities of the killer inherently take away the unknown. They can provide menace, a factor relevant in slasher movies. Menace being the fear of the known, seeing what someone has done, and therefore knowing what they can do. You saw Michael Myers pick up someone with one hand, and carve his chest out, so you run from him because of his menace, you run because you know he can pick you up, and carve your chest out. Its a different type of fear, a fear that dbd has always used. An earned fear of a dangerous threat.

    This is why people don't want this neon hot guy as a killer. At least not alone. There are so many easy ways to give him menace, to dehumanize a character. A mask is the first and easiest way, which is why 90% of the characters have some kind of mask or facial deformity. But you want his pretty boy face, okay fine, no mask. You can look at the things that made him less than human. He let his band die in a horrible fire. Burn his clothes, a LOT. Char up his coat, maybe burn some of his flesh or part of his face. This gives a great excuse to provide dark tones to his otherwise colorful uniform. Still dont like that? Give him more blood, more stains on his jacket, maybe some open wounds or deformities from traversing the entity's realm, spikes and chains are not so out of place in kpop that making them a part of his flesh or body would be unreasonable. But the biggest thing is just, make the neon outfit an alternate outfit and no one complains. If his stage attire is just not the base outfit, thats fine, its a cosmetic, no one would really care that much so long as the base character fits the aesthetic of dbd.

    DBD themselves are kinda forgetting the reason the game was popular, it was dark and gritty like a classic slasher, that is their audience. These brighter maps and textures really just don't hold up...

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    Very well said, this is exactly what I meant when I say I feel like they didn't even try with his design

  • UnifallUnifall Member Posts: 749

    When theyre dressed like that its hard to take that killer seriously

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 12,700

    Doubt you'd be saying that if a crazed killer came at you IRL with a bat and knives. :P

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318

    You did post images, they just didn't go through.

    Why are you keep bringing up psychological horror? This is horror, psychological horror is a subgenre of the horror. If Trickster gives you that kind of vibe, that's entirely on you. My point is that a horror character is built on the idea of menace, cruelty, and destruction. I don't about you, but Trickster seems to encapsulate that idea just like the rest of the roster.

    Your point on making him a menace by "dehumanizing" him is understandable but is also unsubstantiated and irrelevant. Why? Because like I said a thousand times before, a killer does not need too look like some eldritch being or a creepy-pasta villain or a "dude in a mask". Ultimately, the personality and the history behind the character is what makes them qualify as Killer. I don't like his default design too but only because it lacks more varied visual elements but I can still respect BHR for adding a more "human" looking Killer.

    I mean really it's all subjective in the end but stating that a design like Trickster objectively CAN'T fit in a horror game is complete nonsense. God forbid they add a more human looking Killer in this game oh wait Deathslinger, Clown, Legion exist.

  • DrNickDrNick Member Posts: 53

    What he really NEEDS is a Buff. What they did was just ridiculus... If thats what they call a buff then they dont know what it is like to play him.. I played a few matches and he is still too weak

  • UnifallUnifall Member Posts: 749

    If they're looking like trickster probably not. I just think they're some weird cosplayer guy. But if trickster really scares you that's you bro. He's not scary to me or most people.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 12,700
  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372
    • every killer ever added is either a slasher villain or inspired by a slasher vilain

    "tHiS hOrRoR mAsHuP"

    You could argue the pig isnt a slasher killer but they really don't incorporate the psychological aspect of the killer in literally every capacity. They gave amanda John's retractable blade, and she puts the iconic bear trap on people hoping they die. They literally took the one psychological horror killer in the entire game and turned them into a slasher villain in gameplay AND lore to fit the theme :/

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752
    edited April 2021

    Because horror movies and books create a certain atmosphere so you can suspend disbelief. In fact, all good literature does this but for the horror genre, this is especially vital to build an atmosphere to suspend disbelief. (Great horror video games, also do this).

    An example of how disruptive this is to the suspension of disbelief would be if you were reading Dracula by Bram Stoker and suddenly in the middle of the novel, a pink colored unicorn was introduced as a character. All the sudden, all the suspension of disbelief you had while reading the novel is gone.

    So you will say, well Dead By Daylight is a game. Well, I say, games also do this. Look at Resident Evil or Silent Hill, do they have characters or settings that totally destroy the atmosphere of the game? Is there a pink unicorn in those games? No, because that would totally destroy your sense of disbelief and ruin the atmosphere of those games.

    Post edited by Mandy on
  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    The point Im making is in lore and by design, he is meant to be a psychological horror killer. Every other killer in dbd has been a Slasher Horror killer, with no exceptions. Even the pig, based on amanda young for the psychological horror "Saw" is treated as a slasher killer in their lore and design, saying Amanda just wants to kill people in a deranged form of her SAW 3 character.

    If hes just going to look like a guy, and his lore says that his scary aspects come from a psychological horror aspect and plot scheme, then that is kinda how we have to address him, because thats what he is? You can't just add hanible lecter and say "but he was scary, why does there need to be more about him?" Well hes just an old man with no context... Dehumanizing a slasher villain is important so they dont just seem like a person. Being a 9 foot monster does that automatically, being deformed like the blight does that automatically, wearing a mask and dark clothes (while the cheapest option), still inherently does this.

    Psychological horror is horror, but if you want to take the face value pieces of a character that is designed in this way and call it scary, that won't work, because those aren't the aspects that were designed to be scary. He is BY DESIGN, meant to look non threatening. So if a barbie doll was 6 feet tall and started murdering people, yes that could still be horror, but transplanting her into an environment where the prerequisites to make a barbie doll scary have not been set, then there is no fear associated with them.

    I shouldn't have to explain why the trickster isn't a slasher killer, that was never a trick question. He is literally a generic psych horror trope. Thats not the part that we should be debating because it isn't an arguable part of the conversation, its inherent to his character. What we need to be arguing is does the traits applied to the character visually and cosmetically fit in adapting this killer into the world, and the answer really is no, in every metric.

    Okay so he likes killing, great. Thats why he kills in game so willingly, he wanted to any way. But he wanted to to make music? Something not even touched upon in the gameplay at all. What do the knives have to do with his character? He used them as a kid and thats it. What does his bright outfit have to do with him? He used it to lore people in to be tortured. An aspect that once again, is not in any way translated into the game. So his entire backstory and psych horror themes are ignored entirely in gameplay, so we lose those avenues. All we have now is a brightly colored person who looks visually pleasing, does not maintain even a single one of his thematic reasons to be seen as scary or threatening, and who is literally just some guy who wants to kill. People gave the legion ######### for not being visually threatening or capable of fighting like David King or Bill, but at least they looked threatening, so thats at least something?

    The only thing making him a trickster here is that he has the lore of a psych horror character, the outfit and design that serves no purpose despite inherently making him less threatening and thematically relevant, and an ability irrelevant to both.

    If the reason he looks this way isn't relevant to how he acts, and the things he does are not relevant to his lore or design, why not just make him some deranged knife throwing acrobat or something... Just everything from a lore and design aspect clashes, and at least making him look threatening wouldn't betray the slasher horror themes dbd has always held

  • goatslingergoatslinger Member Posts: 522

    Look at the roster of DBD killers. Then look at trickster. I feel like if you really think about it you will be able to understand why some people are like...######### is this?

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318

    Reread my last paragraph veeeeerrrrryyyyy sloooooooowwwllllyy. Then come back with a better response.

  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    My guy I addressed every ######### sentence with its own paragraph.

    "Why not just a guy" : Two paragraphs on why that defines psychological horror and why the elements of psych horror do not fit. That is why I referenced hannibal lecter and the invisible man

    "Why does this not fit into horror" : I explained that this is psych horror and why it is psych horror, and why dbd is slasher horror. They are different genres of horror

    You referenced the history being what makes them important, I responded by saying the history, lore, design, and abilities are all disjointed and unrelated.

    Dude what part of ANY of what you said, did I not address in excruciating detail??? Literally find one sentence in anything you said that I didnt address

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318

    You STILL don't get it, do you?

    It doesn't matter if you call Trickster psychological "horror" and that he doesn't fit "slasher", he's still horror.

    What I'm trying to say is that the VISUAL APPEARANCE alone shouldn't determine if a Killer is "horror" or not. You say Hannibal Lecter can't fit because he's "an old man with no context". That is absolutely not true. Hannibal has proven time and time again he is a merciless and psychotic killer JUST like Trickster. Hannibal Lecter can perfectly fit in with the rest of the cast BECAUSE he's a KILLER. Every Killer in the game has a messed up background and committed terrible acts. That's what qualifies as Killer not how a Killer's appearance matches YOUR idea of what a Killer should look like.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    Comparing Trickster to Hannibal Lector is an insult to Hannibal

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318

    You can say whatever you want my man, but I don't see you providing any arguments on your end.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    As you keep saying it's all subjective.

    I just think you shouldn't compare Trickster to Hannibal.

    Hannibal's a well written and actualised character that fits in the media he's in.

    I'm not even saying he'd fit in DBD because he probably wouldn't.

  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    you are ignoring like three paragraphs of explanation. Dead by daylight is a slasher horror game. The gameplay, the mechanics, even the base character load outs. Horror is such a huge classification. DBD doesnt have hannibal lecter, or norman bates, or any other psychological horror character because it is based on the slasher horror genre. Slasher horror is essentially a genre of action horror movies. The motivations are active, the fear based on menace. I explained the differences in great detail. Nascar and formula 1 are both racing, they both have their draws and purposes, but they are not inherently compatible.

    Is hannibal lecter someone who kills? Yes. Is silence of the lambs horror? Yes. Is he someone who is going to chase you down in the street, over power you, and disembowel you and 20 of your friends because he's a monster? No. He isn't Jason, he isn't ghost face, he isn't here to slash and maime, and that isnt what is IP is about. Its about terror, suspense, it is, as Ive been saying, psychological horror. The fear does not come from active interaction, it comes from suspense.

    Like at this point every time I get in a discussion about this the people defending the trickster's appearance don't understand that horror doesn't just mean any scary movie. It has genres and subgenres. It has purposes and directives. Its not this big blanket of horror. And maybe you didn't grow up watching all of these different branches of the types of media and you just want to play a game based on them, but that doesnt mean you understand the history behind these themes and the precedent they set. It would be like calling twisted sister and Alice Cooper the same type of musical artists. I mean yea, they both did rock, they were both around the same time period, but they are entirely different genres of the medium. You can like both, but here is something very base line you are missing here


    And just to reiterate one last time, of course hannibal wouldnt fit here. And old man chasing down people in their 20s and trying to overpower them just does not make sense. It would betray his character, his lore. Despite just being impossible... That was the point I was making, he is psych horror, he is a legend in the medium, but he isnt slasher, and calling him that is an insult to his character

  • QuolQuol Member Posts: 694

    What are you talking about? The theme would be how a seemingly ordinary doggo could be a vicious murderer. Not every killer needs to be scary or grotesque you know. Perhaps there's more to it than just visuals, eh?

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318

    No you're misinterpreting me. I meant an ordinary golden retriever with no history of being violent and brutally killing people being taken in as Killer. But yeah, a doggo that pretends to be ordinary but secretly does evil deeds? Sure, sounds good to me. Though only bipedal creatures are allowed as Killers according to BHR so I doubt they'll add that.

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318

    Except in this very game, Pyramid Head is not a killer who runs very quickly and leave trenches, not to mention he can only exist to James Sunderlund. BHR can take liberties with their licenses, if they wanted, they can have Hannibal in as a crazed psycho who runs and slashes if they wanted. I get it, you clearly love horror and its subgenres, but BHR's game is about Horror and ALL its elements.

    And with the whole "old man running and killing". Really? With that logic, David, Ashe, and Cheryl should be able to beat up all the Legion members, Trickster, Clown, Hag, etc.

  • RenTheCatRenTheCat Member Posts: 212

    We could have some new werewolf killer, or bog fish swamp like monster killer, or Jason or anyone else.

    Instead K-pop is trendy among kids in twitter who don't even play the game so BHVR decides K-pop has to come to dead by daylight.

    People have a right to dislike him.

  • burt0rburt0r Member Posts: 2,937

    And neither of them have a recognizable face and the only killer that have a face are again deformed monster. Trickster is in all aspects of visualization a normal human except his wounds.

  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    I already mentioned that most people agree the legion were a let down. I dont know how anyone is beating up a 500 pound, 7 foot tall clown, and the hag is clearly super natural at least, like sure freddy is just some guy but hes also a demon so they kinda get a pass on the stature argument.

    But you keep saying dbd is about all horror and that just isnt true. All of their killers (and please correct me if you disagree because I very much dont see the argument against this), follow the slasher model in lore and gameplay.

    Pyramid head needed a gameplay analog that was reasonable, but he's still a SERIOUS character of menace, not psych horror in the games. I understand that the multiple interactions you have with him are suspenseful, but not only does he show you early on that he is menacing through his actions, but hes a giant jacked, gray skinned, blood soaked, monster who can wield a giant pyramid and sword. He inherently has menace from design, a point I made from the start, because of his design he already succeeds at seeming inherently threatening.

    And once again on the hanible aspect, yes they COULD make him do whatever they wanted, but it would not only make no sense for an old man to do so, it would not only make no sense from a lore standpoint, it would betray the franchise and the purpose of the character. Saying "DBD can do whatever they want" doesn't change the patterns and themes they've left present. They COULD add a pink pony covered in glitter, but it wouldnt make sense in game for something colorful and bright and happy to be trying to kill people, and from the lore associated with a pink pony it wouldnt be expected to kill. Lector could be a great villain in a psychological horror game, because that is his genre, its what he does. But if the gameplay of dbd is as Ive said, an active, action based, fast and reactive environment, that is slasher horror, not psychological horror. It IS a different genre.

  • DeadHardManDeadHardMan Member Posts: 318
    edited April 2021

    Listen, this is clearly going nowhere. Either way, Tricky Boi and his flashy neon is here to stay and there's nothing you can do about it.

    As for Hannibal being in the game. I mean... you said it yourself describing Pyramid Head:

    "Pyramid head needed a gameplay analog that was reasonable, but he's still a SERIOUS character of menace, not psych horror in the games. I understand that the multiple interactions you have with him are suspenseful, but not only does he show you early on that he is menacing through his actions, but hes a giant jacked, gray skinned, blood soaked, monster who can wield a giant pyramid and sword. He inherently has menace from design, a point I made from the start, because of his design he already succeeds at seeming inherently threatening."

    You say that an old man running around chasing Survivors doesn't make any sense but like PH, BHVR can give him a power that can fit with him aesthetically. Why not give him a power that can psychologically affect Survivors?

    You seeing PH as threatening is entirely subjective. Others can see Pyramid Head as non-threatening but see Trickster as unnerving and terrifying. It all comes down to personal taste in the end. This is going nowhere so let's just end it here, ok?

  • AVoiceOfReasonAVoiceOfReason Member Posts: 2,688

    I mean Legion are just people with masks XD

  • mintchapstickmintchapstick Member Posts: 891

    For everyone who is arguing that Trickster doesn't fit the game--have you considered the possibility that he fits what the devs are planning to do with the game? Think about it. Does anyone remember their Elf Dwight twitter for December? How about the fact that there's an Elf Dwight outfit, Dwight in a Box, & two characters who have skins that are onsies? The maps are getting reworked to be brighter and brighter (especially the Coldwind Farm maps). The killer before Trickster has a little goofy boob guy that chases after you & you can kick him when he misses.

    They are NOT worried about your spooky gameplay experience, they know where their game is going & has been going for a long time.

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