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How can gen speeds be slowed that is fair for both sides?



  • YatolYatol Member Posts: 1,409

    because the tittle tells what you are asking for and your post as too much rambling. The only way to nerf gen speed is nerfing the perk and toolbox that make them go quicker, touching the way the base gen works is just going to be too much.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited April 2021

    Prove Thyself already doesn't stack with other Prove Thyselves.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
  • BeelzeboopBeelzeboop Member Posts: 1,306

    They could slow down the gen speeds, but that requires making the main objective for survivors actually interesting or entertaining to some level.

    With only 300 people and who knows how many outsourced workers, how can they possibly change their own spaghetti code? Plus, that would be admitting that they actually made a mistake, and that would require owning up to it like an actual human being.

  • ChantyBoiChantyBoi Member Posts: 175

    The base regression mechanics in the game are severely outdated and need updates. Firstly I believe that kicking a gen should instantly regress ~4%. This does a number of things. As it stands unless you have dragons grip, surveillance, overcharge, or pop, there is very little reason to kick a gen. The precious amount of time you use up kicking it can instantly be undone by a survivor tapping it mid chase in under a second. Not only would this instant regression provide incentive to kick gens, it would also discourage gen tapping, as repeatedly tapping a gen and allowing a killer to kick it over and over could lose you a TON of progress. Another thing is just increasing the rate gens regress. I would say increase base regression to the Tier II Ruin speed of 150% of CURRENT base regression then rescale ruin accordingly. Another even more crazy idea I've heard is making T3 Ruin base speed and just removing the faster regression from ruin and making it so the perk just automatically regresses generators. I actually quite like idea but it's not likely to happen. All in all I actually think the issue is less how fast you can finish the gens and more how little the killer can slow them down.

  • Hektic3000Hektic3000 Member Posts: 674

    I think the base gen time of 80 seconds is fine and doesn't need to be increased. What does need to be changed is the efficiency of multiple survivors on the same gen. A single survivor on a gen takes 80s, 2 survivors gets cut to ~47s, 3 is ~38s, and 4 survivors is ~36 seconds and i think that's too big of a jump in time between a solo survivor and multiple people.

  • DetailedDetrimentDetailedDetriment Member Posts: 2,632

    The problem with something like this is it makes the Risky Repairs (pop 2 gens in the killer's terror radius) challenge literally impossible. And seeing as it has appeared in every tome since its inception, I doubt it will get replaced.

  • miketheratguymiketheratguy Member Posts: 2,719

    Gen speeds seem too slow when I play survivor.

    Gen speeds seem too fast when I play killer.

    Perks on both sides can dramatically alter both.

    If that isn't balanced I don't know what is.

  • FrenziedRoachFrenziedRoach Member Posts: 2,597
    edited April 2021

    The thing is, it's REALLY HARD to stop those first two generators from popping. If the team I'm up against is compitent, I expect to lose the first 2 generators at first hook and don't even sweat it (only exception to this seems to be if I run corrupt intervention)

    However, I have noted that due to the shrinking territory, with every generator popped it gets easier and easier to defend your territory and keep up that pressure and start slowing things down dramatically as long as you are mindful of splitting your attention and not let yourself get drawn into too many long chases outside of what you have left. I feel like too many people forget this or are afraid of some silly unwritten rule about "Camping gens".

    I think we're probably sitting at the best we're gonna get for gen speeds. We have gen defense perks of the player feels they need them (and let's face it, the competitive players will run these perks regardless of what the gen speed is sitting at, so let's be real here).

    Map sizes are already getting addressed as they go through them. We saw Rotten Fields already get one size reduction already, and it looks like it might of been made even more tolerable in the upcoming rework (I may actually stop calling it an abomination now). So map size is a thing they are aware of, just be patient.

  • drpynzdrpynz Member Posts: 219

    Good idea IMO. Prove thyself doesn’t stack within a certain radius. Two people on the same Gen with prove thyself only one of them takes effect.

    Having the kick regression stop with a simple tap is the main problem. Having progression start after 6 seconds just like if the survivor blew the Gen up themselves would fall in line canonically.

  • vladspellbindervladspellbinder Member Posts: 273

    I admit that I didn't place as much portly over the first as I maybe should have. I've just seen a lot of times when someone gets hooked, I don't camp them and the other three Survivors all stay on gens and don't go for the save. Even when I then get in to chase with a second Survivor the first is still on hook and goes second stage while two gens get finished. "Gens before friends" happens uncomfortable often in my games, on both sides. And when I run Thana I tend to focus more on spreading out the injurers than I do on focusing downs and hooks.

    I will need to reevaluate my playstyle somewhat.

    On the other matter I'm at a point now where I, mostly, know when to drop chase so as not to waste time on lost causes. I would chase on of the really good Survivors for a bit, catch them out of position when I could but often only just chased them from the gen and into another zone I wanted to search for someone easier. My main problem with my example game was Thana was often at three and four stacks of debuff yet gens still went by fast without a Prove Thyself in play.

    Maybe it wasn't any faster than normal and it only seemed like such because I was struggling on catching half the team. There are a lot of factors I probably didn't take into account which is why it's such a tough issue to come up with a solution for; lots of interlinking parts to fiddle with and if you change something too much it all breaks apart.

    I'm going to link back to your original post here again so people don't have to go looking for it:

    In this is there are only two cases where your idea does not hurt a solo player: a four man SWF or two separate sets of two SWF getting paired together. With a three man SWF or a two man SWF the solo player(s) is (are) being punished by the SWF people not finishing gens as fast as if it were other solos and this makes it harder for them to get out of the Trial alive. If you do anything to hinder a SWF other than a four man you also hinder the solo player(s) that get teamed up with them because they don't contribute to the team overall as much as the equivalent amount of solo players would.

    I'm not real hard on the "If you kill SWF you kill the game" as some people are but I understand that SWF is important for the game and should not be removed. I'm really hard on the "Buff Solo" side of things. Once Solo Survivor is more on par with SWF then Killers can be buffed to that level but until Solo is easier any buffs to Killers to counter SWF or nerfs to SWF that don't only apply to SWF will hurt Solo.

    And Solo is already painful enough as it is.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702

    Good on you for being willing to look at your own playstyle for ways to improve! You could try recording your games and watching through them after to see if you can figure out moments where you could have made a better decision, or even posting them on the forum to get feedback.

  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    This has been said for a very long time, but give gens either 4 or 6 check points. When a surv leaves a gen it begins regressing to the most recent check point. When a killer kicks a gen it begins regressing normally. This prevents gen tapping and rewards pressure

  • MB666MB666 Member Posts: 500
    edited April 2021

    mmm well...probably maybe adding a ...EARLY GAME MECHANIC

    -every survivor at the start of the match get a debuff (maybe -50% or -30% if u want a fair number) of only REPAIR SPEED ACTION.

    -to get ride away of that debuff u need to do :

    1) start a chase no matter whats the situacion 

    2) change of health state (healthy ..to injure , deep wound , infected , etc) 

    and OPTIONAL 

    3) just cleanse a single totem..

    well thats my idea to prevent cases where people doesnt show atlest once to the killer and dont do anything more than sitting on gens hidding ...any suggestion ..or idea can be well recieve 

  • Jane_Is_Mega_ThiccJane_Is_Mega_Thicc Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2021

    Gen speed is fine, there’s many gen stopping perks. Ever heard of Gen pressure? Patrolling gens is a great way to do it, it’s your fault that there getting the gens done because your either not applying pressure or just chasing one survivor all game.

  • landromatlandromat Member Posts: 2,193

    So you'll just ignore the fact solo survivors have advantage now because their swf teammates are more efficient. This is not punishing. This just removes advantage

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606

    I mean, Ruin only works if you keep chasing people off gens. You could have Ruin up for the entire game without having any impact because people dont have any reason to go off gens. If there is 2 people working on the same gen and you decide to chase one of them, the other one will return within seconds. That's not exactly what we would call gen pressure. That's just you making the gen repairs slower by removing 1 survivor and letting the generator regress for maybe 5 seconds at best.

    You could go for an injure on 1 survivor, then go back to the gen to go in chase with the other, forcing the injured one to create distance as they dont know if you would keep chasing while you push the other one off the gen again, forcing the gen to actually regress for a significant time. If there is a survivor nearby to prevent Ruin from regressing, Ruin wont have any significant effect.

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606

    Let me tell you why you are wrong:

    1. a survivor can do this mid-chase. Having 0 time investment and preventing the generator from regressing progress that survivors have put in. So lets say it's a gen with 70 seconds worth of solo progress. A survivor can use 0.1 second of their time mid-chase to save all that progress.
    2. A killer kicking a gen for 2 seconds means a survivor can make 8 meters of distance, which requires 13 seconds to close, so a killer actively extends his chase by 13 seconds for 2 seconds invested in preventing a gen from being finished, which can be fully negated by the same survivor in chase within less than 0.1 second.

    Gen regression is already about 25% of solo survivor progression(1 survivor adds 1 charge per second, base regression is 0.268 charges per second, meaning it takes about 5 full minutes for a generator at 79 charges(aka 99%) to regress). So if we use actual logic, if a killer needs 2 seconds to cause a generator to regress, it SHOULD take the survivor 10 seconds to stop it from regressing just for the math to work out. THIS is why kicking a generator should have 5% base regression added to it, because 5% of 80 is only 4 seconds of solo survivor progress and 2 seconds of 2 survivors working on it. 5% really isnt that much, it would just punish people tapping the same gen multiple times when the killer is nearby. You shouldnt be touching a generator if a killer is nearby, just as much as you shouldnt be dropping shack pallet if you're at full health.

    "Killers just need to be selective about which gens they kick."

    So, if a gen is at 80%, you should just not kick it because you're in chase? You should just leave it and let survivors finish it? You should just give survivors the gen for free? I mean, that's like a survivor being on a hook, and the killer being able to hit you twice without needing 5 stacks of STBFL because you shouldnt be able to unhook your teammate in front of a killer, even if that teammate is 2 seconds away from being removed from the game. You should just be selective about which survivors you unhook, even if you have BT. So if a killer is next to a hook, bodyblocking and trying to bait a hit for an unhook should be deleted from the game and just guarantee the killer a kill?

  • Patrick1088Patrick1088 Member Posts: 620

    I think your issue was that you didn't commit to chases tbh. Thano caps off at 20% if all 4 are injured. That's only 16s extra if all 4 survivors are down. If you had slugged the first and hooked the second, it would've forced the ither 2 survivors off of the gens then you get some good ruin value.

    Gen speeds are fine tbh. If you were constantly up against SWF with good perks, purple toolboxes with BNP, then sure let's talk gen speeds.

    But as it was that wasn't the case. Corrupt Intervention slows game a bit so you can build up steam (not sure who you're playing as, whether they need set up like Trapper or Hag).

    If you aren't good at finding people (not sure if this was a 1 time issue or otherwise) you can drop BBQ for bitter murmur. You'll get tinkerer value and then post pop value so you get almost 30s of knowing where people are (20 s tinkerer and bitter murmur).

    Gen rush happens but not to the frequency that most people think. Most of the time it comes down to killers not applying pressure

    What else is a survivor to do but sit on a gen? Its not their fault killer can't find them

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    -For the first 60 seconds of the game, Survivors receive a 50% generator repair penalty and are oblivious.

    -Whenever a survivor is unhooked, they suffer a 25% gen repair penalty for 60 seconds, but get a 7% haste status effect for that same amount of time.

    -Whenever a survivor dies, the repair speed of remaining survivors is increased by 6%

    -Kicking a Generator instantly applies 2.5% regression.

    -BNP's now light the generator up Yellow for killer (as a downside)

  • BrokenSouIBrokenSouI Member Posts: 6,521

    I feel like you are either the new one. Or are just survivor main. Gen speeds are not fine at all. If we're just being honest here

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited April 2021

    1) If you're chasing someone around a gen you just kicked, you kicked the gen at a bad time. If you're chasing someone around a gen you kicked a while ago, you still got good value out of that kick regardless of whether the gen was tapped. Gen tapping mid chase is also not without risk. If you take .5 seconds to stop, tap a gen, and get back on track in the loop, you're losing 2.3 meters on a 115% killer, which translates to almost 4 seconds of chase time. That might mean you get one less loop around your pallet, you get hit just as you're vaulting through the next window instead of being safe, etc. It should generally lead to shorter chases, which may or may not be worth the regression time you save. It's a calculated risk, just like kicking the gen the first place.

    2) If you decide to kick a gen instead of chasing a survivor and give them 8 meters of distance for free, you kicked the gen at a bad time. That's not a problem with the kick mechanic. That's the killer being an idiot.

    That "actual logic" is ignoring the fact that regressing a gen gives continuous and passive value until survivors return to a gen. One two-second kick can give the killer up to 80 seconds of passive regression time. Tapping a gen, on the other hand, does not give any passive gen progress. It just stops regression. The math should also not work out such that killers are guaranteed to get value out of a gen kick. It has always been a calculated risk and always should be. Otherwise it's just a completely braindead mechanic. Requiring 10 seconds just to counter regression is ridiculous. Imagine playing against Ruin with that. Granting instant 5% regression from a kick is a lot more reasonable, but the mechanic is fine as is; it's just one potential balance lever the devs could pull if killers are ever underperforming. That regression is not necessary to counter tapping, since you can already counter tapping by not kicking gens without kick-based perks when survivors are right next to them.

    If a gen is at 80% and you're chasing a survivor around a tile where a gen is, you should very likely not kick that gen. The main exception would be if you're running a powerful kick-related perk like Pop, and even then it can be a bad decision in some situations, especially if you're playing a low-mobility killer. Not kicking the gen is not "giving survivors the gen for free". You need to get downs and hooks to pull survivors off gens and ultimately remove them from the game. If you're trading the opportunity for downs and hooks for some likely modest regression from kicking a gen you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You don't always need to commit to a chase, like if you're in a three-gen situation and a survivor tries to drag you away from the three-gen, but the rule about kicking holds even in this situation. If survivors are likely to get back on that gen a matter of seconds after you kick it, you would have been better off not kicking it and using those couple seconds to pressure survivors.

    Being selective about kicking gens has nothing to do with saving in front of the killer with or without BT.

  • Friendly_BlendetteFriendly_Blendette Member Posts: 2,498

    Gen times are fine for the most part its the lack of mobility most killers have and the default regression being the worst thing known to man that are the issue.

  • Aven_FallenAven_Fallen Member Posts: 12,186
    edited April 2021

    Almost 5800 hours, playing both sides, always Rank 1 on both sides. So yeah, I have no idea what I am talking about, clearly.

    The thing is, I can accept that I am the reason why I lose my games as Killer and not Genspeeds, SWF or whatever cheap excuse most people make up for their losses.

    And personally, I would consider myself a Survivor Main, because I like that role more, despite playing both roughly the same. And I would also not say that I am good at Killer, but if I can do fine and dont complain when I lose, this makes me question how bad players are who complain on a constant basis.

    But even without having over 5000 hours in the game someone should know that Gen Times of 2 minutes are way too much. (And even if they would be that long, there would still be some people who struggle and demand more...)

  • RaptorrotasRaptorrotas Member Posts: 2,583

    Instead of increasing the time we should probably make generators more difficult to repair.

    Imagine even good survivors not being able to watch a rwitch stream while repairing a gen 😂

  • ZozzyZozzy Member Posts: 4,759
    edited April 2021

    You get good survivors or swf as killer and idiots as survivor. what perks alter the game on the killer side that can't just be disabled at the start of the game?

  • vladspellbindervladspellbinder Member Posts: 273

    I've got all the set up for streaming on Twitch (sans face cam) and even not counting that have recording software. I just don't fire it up when I play because I'm playing for fun and the majority of matches I do play are not worth recording.

    But every so often you have that one game where dumb and or insane things happen and you wish you had it recorded... .

    This is the first I'm hearing the "check point" idea. One thing to keep in mind is that new people are always coming into the game and onto the forums so ideas that are old hat to you are new to them. I only recently started the game, end of 2020, and have only been on the forums for a few months as of this posting so I'm trying to play catch-up on a lot of things.

    I'm not really sure how I feel about having Ruin, even a weaker version of Ruin that stops at key points, being a base-kit sort of thing. It always feels bad as Survivor when you get a gen to the high 90% of completion and are then chased or, worse, grabbed, off of it and when you can finally get back around to the gen you find no other Survivor came by in the time you were gone and it's now either totally dead or in the low 20%. I've been there as Survivor. It makes me want to cry when it happens.

    So if there were check-points there would need to be more of them and not less. Maybe something like every 15% was "banked" unless the gen was in "regression mode", which is either active Ruin or having been kicked and not repaired since the kick. It's easy enough to gain 15% and being caught out between those marks won't feel as bad when you can get back to the gen as Survivor. It's also give Killers a bit more reason to kick a gen after downing someone, because if you can get it under one of the check-points before another Survivor comes along and then bother that gen again once they you get more regression.

    The only issue when it comes to having check-points is how it would interact with Surveillance. Maybe add in a fourth color for when a gen hits a check-point instead of regression being stopped by a Survivor? I'm not sure if they go from white to red if they hit zero or not or if they hit yellow for a moment before going back to red. Maybe when it hits the check-point it just goes right back to red without having been yellow. Bit of an odd duck.

    The repair speed hinderance shouldn't be too high, and I think 30% is just too high. The point isn't to prevent Survivors from repairing gens early to but make the game more fun both both sides. Also I think the main two conditions should be either to escape a chase or change health states. so if the Killer finds you and they either choose not to chase you or do chase you and you slip away you're no longer hindered. It's basically to same as having started the chase but doesn't take into effect until the chase is over.

    And really almost anything that gets people to Do The [bad word]ing Bones is a win in my book. Helps me as Survivor, fewer chances for NOED, and helps me as Killer, keeps them off gens for some time.

    When I play Survivor I'm pretty much always playing Solo, very rarely do I ever get to play in a SWF. I'm often teamed up with two and three person SWFs though. You are ignoring that if you do anything to a less than four man SWF you'll be hurting Solo players.

    I consider myself to be a Killer Main, for every Survivor game I play I play maybe five or six Killer games. Having said that I still say that we shouldn't try and nerf SWF but instead should in some way buff Solo. And then once Solo is on-par with SWF and Killers are starting to underperform then we buff Killers. At no point in time should there ever been a penalty for playing with your friends. For every team of four de-pip squad hard-core gen-rushers out there there are many more teams of four friends who just want to casually enjoy their game of cat-and-mouse together with someone they don't know as the Killer. There is no way for the game to tell two groups apart so anything you do to one will impact the other and make it less fun for the casual people.

    And if I haven't made it clear yet my whole goal is the make the game the most fun it can be for everyone. I know you can't totally please everyone but you can make it so that there more people that are happy than there are people that are unhappy, and punishing you for playing with your friends isn't the way to make people happy.

    Unless they are the sort of people who like that sort of thing that is. Which I play Dark Souls so... .

    In my example game on this very post I have that exact scenario you talk about early in the game. Getting the Tinkerer proc and bothering two people on a gen, hitting one before looping back to the other person to chase that person off as well and getting a hit. That gen didn't get finished until later in the game. Ruin did it's job and I did mine. I was putting pressure on people to give Ruin time to work. I wasn't always bothering two people at once but I was constantly in chase and I was getting hooks often enough that it didn't feel too bad. At many points I knew where three or all of them were at because of various reasons and most of those times the answer could be summed up as "Not on a gen".

    Ruin didn't go down until three gens had been finished, and by that time I had single hooked everyone, second hooked one person (who was saved in the middle of ->) and was in chase with a third who I'd already injured and was in a good position to down because they were in a dead zone.

    My problem was that I felt like I was applying decent pressure and gen were still getting finished so fast. There never seemed to be any time only one Survivor was working on a gen, it was always at least two people, so I was really sure it was Prove Thyself but it wasn't.

    I will freely admit I'm not the best Killer player, and that I have a lot to learn and get better at. But saying basically nothing more than "Apply more pressure" is not constructive advice. How can I apply more pressure? Without tunneling someone out of the game how can you apply more pressure when there is only one of you and four of them? Slug? Because the answer always seems to come back around to either tunneling or slugging and I don't normally do the former unless someone has been toxic and I don't do the later for a 4k but will do it sometimes to slow things down a bit.

    A minute is a long time in this game and 50% is super punishing AND being Oblivious is basically a free hook to every Killer ever, the only reason it's not broken on Nightmare is because of the kid's song. If this was done only the extreme masochists would ever play Survivor and that'd kill the game more than the lack of Killer Players ever would.

    Being hooked should already be punishment enough for getting caught, no reason to slap on a repair penalty as well. And, again, a minute is a really long time in this game. The Haste effect is also better than D.S. and is really what D.S. wants to be: true anti-tunnel. You can't get tunneled if the Killer can't catch you after all.

    If you gave Survivors a reward for others dying it would encourage them to be less helpful to the teammates while at the same time also encouraging Killers to slug more often. While the idea seems nice at first glance it isn't in-line with what is intended to be normal gameplay.

    I'm all for adding to base-kit gen kicking. 2.5% is really reasonable, I normally say maybe 1 or 2 personally but 2.5 isn't a bad idea. But this topic isn't about base-kit kicking or regression, no matter how many people keep bringing it up. If you have an active Ruin the whole game kicking never comes into play.

    If this was done then everyone would switch to using Brand New Parts the way I use Brand New Parts: for the last 25% of the gen, making it pointless. I pretty much always wait to use my toolbox to finish a gen, this includes when I run B.N.P. so making it highlight a gen does nothing to it, unless you also add that it can only be used on a gen under 50% or something like that, which would be a big nerf.

    I don't mean to be mean and just shoot down all of your ideas but my goal is to make the game more fun for both sides, not just for Killer. While it most likely won't be possible to make things fun for Killer without making them harder on Survivors in some way there should be something that can be done to make it at least some what more fun and interaction on the Survivor side. Just slapping penalties on them is neither fun nor interactive.

    Lack of mobility with stupid large maps. I was playing a slow Killer as well so "lack of mobility" was probably a key factor in why the gens felt like they went by so fast.

    I'd rather not get quick time events please. They are one of the things that is putting me off of Home Sweet Home: Survive. I don't mind skill checks because it's the same key every time and you get a good warning. Having to worry about what key to hit is what annoys me about Q.T.E.s and what H.S.H.:S. has going for it, being either "Q" or "E" is not fun to me.

    I'd be all for adding more skill-check to gens, but have it so that only a few of them have the "Great" area on them, being more like an Overcharge check or an Autodidact one. Because if they are just base skill-checks having more of them would defeat the purpose because good Survivors can hit that "Great" more often than not and those 1% jumps add up over time. This would interact oddly with Stake Out but it could be changed to say like "for checks with a Great area Good" or something.

  • landromatlandromat Member Posts: 2,193

    Buffing solo means buffing 2-3 man swf then by your logic

  • danielmaster87danielmaster87 Member Posts: 6,491

    Just add 20 seconds to them.

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