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How can gen speeds be slowed that is fair for both sides?



  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    I mean 6 check points would be every 16.6%, which is pretty close to 15 as is. Every 15% wouldnt be a round number of checkpoints

  • vladspellbindervladspellbinder Member Posts: 273

    In a round-about way, yes, it does. Because the solos with the SWF do better.

    As I've already said Solo needs to be better first then we can make Killer better, the answer is not "Make SWF worse".

    But I am getting the sense that you don't care about finding a solution so much as you care about having an argument. So unless you start trying to not be argumentative I'm done talking at you, because I am sure not talking with you at the moment.

  • vladspellbindervladspellbinder Member Posts: 273

    15, 30, 45, 60, 75, and 90. That's six. 100% is already a "check-point" so doesn't need to factor into things and as such doesn't really matter it's only 10% instead of another 15%. The top check-point below 100% probably wouldn't come into play all that often but it'd be there.

  • TriforcerTriforcer Member Posts: 159

    Just make gen repairs 50% slower in the first 60 or 90 seconds (figure out the timing in the PTR). Sure, some survivors may try to wait that out (ala corrupt intervention, although even at high ranks I've seen very, very few teams try to completely hide for 120 seconds), but that creates some fun cat and mouse in the beginning anyway.

  • eleventbheleventbh Member Posts: 350

    Remember Early-game collapse? That was a fun idea :) Too bad it's never going to be implemented :))

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606

    "1) If you're chasing someone around a gen you just kicked, you kicked the gen at a bad time." Just like touching a gen mid-chase is touching a gen at a bad time, so why not punish that survivor by regressing that gen faster?

    "If you're chasing someone around a gen you kicked a while ago, you still got good value out of that kick regardless of whether the gen was tapped." For you to get value out of that kicked gen, it would have needed to regress at least 15%, which means you would have needed to kick that generator 45 seconds ago. How long does it take 1 survivor to negate that regression? 12 seconds. 2 survivors can negate that regression in 7 seconds. So, that's 47 seconds of killer time that is negated in at least 12.2 seconds of survivor time. If the survivor cannot tap that gen, the longer they chase around that gen, the more it regresses and it would actively force the survivor to leave the area or lose their progress. But they can prevent that by tapping for 0.1 seconds.

    "If you take .5 seconds to stop, tap a gen, and get back on track in the loop, you're losing 2.3 meters on a 115% killer, which translates to almost 4 seconds of chase time." IF it took you 0.5 seconds to stop and tap a gen, which is false, it can be done as quickly as 0.1 seconds. Besides, that 4 seconds of chasetime, you can gain back by vaulting 1 window. And besides, if that gen is nearly finished, it would force the killer to either give up that generator to survivors or kick it. So if you tap a gen that's at 90%, you're pretty much either guaranteeing that gen to be finished, or force that killer to kick it, gaining you 13 seconds in chase.

    So lets compare: 1 action taking 0.2 seconds that loses you 4 seconds in chase at best and if the opponent punishes you, their punishment can instantly be negated vs 1 action taking 2 seconds that loses you 13 seconds in chase at least, and if your opponent punishes you, you are required to negate that punishment by taking 2 seconds. But lets compare it the other way around: If you have a survivor that is at 99% of being sacrificed, a survivor can tap them to prevent the sacrifice, force a hit, trigger BT and have the BT tank the hit for you. Safely escaping both of you. Taking you about 3 seconds to unhook(vs the 2 seconds of kicking) while the killer needs 4 seconds to gain a new hook at the very least. So we have 3 seconds vs 4 seconds on killer objective while 1 survivor is interrupting the killer objective with 2 teammates actively working on their own objective, while you have 0.2 seconds vs 2 seconds on the survivor objective, while the survivor nearby can actively prevent their objective from regressing, with 3 teammates actively working on objectives with no other killers being able to interrupt them. How can you still think gentapping is fine but 5% base regression on kicking a gen is too much?

    "It should generally lead to shorter chases...It's a calculated risk, just like kicking the gen the first place." EXCEPT THAT THE RISK IS NEARLY NON-EXISTENT FOR SURVIVORS. SERIOUSLY. I have played survivor for 1200 hours, I have played killer for 1200 hours. 90% of my chase time on either side has the survivor already being injured. Let alone that a lot of survivors use Dead Hard to extend a chase significantly. Dead Hard alone fully negates the risk for survivors tapping gens. The only way to actively punish gentapping is to have Pop and down the survivor who tapped the gen before survivors had time to finish that generator. So we have pressing E to fully negate the risk of gentapping, vs a full chase, a hook and walking all the way back to the gen that was being tapped to negate the time you would otherwise need to risk kicking the gen. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT EQUAL RISK. Since Gentapping has been in the game since the beginning, the only alteration is adding base regression rewarding the killer to invest 2 seconds of his time into regressing the generator with 4 seconds, punishing people gentapping while STILL losing 9 seconds of chase, while the survivor only loses 4 seconds in chase. SO EVEN WITH THE BUFF, SURVIVORS WOULD HAVE HALF THE RISK OF THE KILLER. Seriously, have you ever played killer at high ranks? Because you clearly have not, I mean, look at this, 4 ######### paragraphs just to address how wrong your first point is in logic.

    "2) If you decide to kick a gen instead of chasing a survivor and give them 8 meters of distance for free, you kicked the gen at a bad time. That's not a problem with the kick mechanic. That's the killer being an idiot." 13 meters* And even if it were 8, that same logic should apply to the SURVIVOR, who decided to touch the gen at a bad time. Either way, there is an issue here. Either survivors should no longer be able to tap gens, or killers need to get a base reward for kicking a gen. Because survivors only lose 4 meters if they suck at tapping gens, while killers lose 13 meters even if they optimized the distance by giving a hit, instantly kicking the gen and having the survivor run into a dead zone. AGAIN, 4 METERS LOST IF THE SURVIVOR IS BAD, 13 METERS LOST IF THE KILLER TIMED IT PERFECTLY.

    The other logic here would be to give survivors a basekit overcharge skillcheck if they were in chase, which would punish them with 10% if they miss. Either way, there is an issue.

    "One two-second kick can give the killer up to 80 seconds of passive regression time." Really, do I really have to put things in caps here just so that you will have an easier time reading why you are wrong here? IT TAKES 5 FULL MINUTES. AND THAT IS ASSUMING THAT ONLY 1 SURVIVOR IS ON THAT GEN. IF THERE IS 2 SURVIVORS, THAT'S AT MOST 44 SECONDS OF PASSIVE REGRESSION. 5 MINUTES FOR 100% OF ONE SIDE THAT CAN BE CANCELLED WITH 0.1 SECONDS OF 25% OF THE OPPOSING SIDE, VS 44 SECONDS FOR 50% OF THE OPPOSING SIDE THAT REQUIRES 2 SECONDS TO START PASSIVELY REGRESSING FROM 100% OF THE ONE SIDE. YOUR LOGIC DOES NOT APPLY.

    "Tapping a gen, on the other hand, does not give any passive gen progress." IRRELEVANT, Survivors do not need passive progress as there is always 1 generator being progressed, a killer cannot always regress 1 generator.

    "Requiring 10 seconds just to counter regression is ridiculous." 10 seconds mid chase*

    " You don't always need to commit to a chase, like if you're in a three-gen situation and a survivor tries to drag you away from the three-gen, but the rule about kicking holds even in this situation." In this situation, your logic holds up. After survivors are capable of finishing 75% of their objective and made the mistake of keeping 3 generators very close or if the killer forced that situation upon you, then base regression is strong enough to keep up with gentapping. Lets clarify this: The killer needs to reduce his patrol area enough that he can keep pressure on 3 generators simultaneously, either giving away 4 gens for free or the survivors making the mistake of not keeping the area of remaining generators maximized, only then is base genregression fast enough to keep patrolling while also focussing on his own objective of hooking survivors. Do you realize how idiotic this sounds? That means that if survivors break up any possible 3 gen early on, the killer has effectively no chance of regressing any generator.

    "Being selective about kicking gens has nothing to do with saving in front of the killer with or without BT." It does tho, because hooks are the killer objective, while gens are survivor objective. It takes 60 seconds per hookstate, the only way to speed that up is by having survivors unhook their teammate ASAP, which needs to be pressured by hooking another survivor ASAP. Otherwise the 2 survivors just will stay on gens untill they need to save their teammate. So thats 60 seconds spread over 2 generators, having 2 gens around 80% while you're on your way to hook the other. Meaning that early in the game, you can lose 3-4 generators for 2 hooks. If chasing was all there was for the killer, your logic would be sound. But its not. The killer needs to hook while preventing gens from popping all alone, survivors need 1 of them distracting the killer, 1 of them consistently on generators and the other 2 either being on gens or 1 on hook and 1 saving the person on the hook. Regardless of the situation, there will always be 1 survivor objective being actively progressed, while the killer objective only progresses once he hooks a survivor. This alone makes your logic that gentapping is fine completely irrelevant. Survivors do not need passive progress as there is always 1 generator being progressed, and that progress is 4x faster than the regression is. So even if it were a 2v1 situation, as long as you are in chase, 1 generator is progressed with 1 charge per second. Meaning that if a gen were regressing that you could tap, would only regress about 25% between the killer kicking it, and your teammate finishing a gen. The fact that survivors have 4 seperate agents to consist of a team makes it nearly impossible for 1 generator to regress from 80% all the way back to 0 unless survivors actively ignore that generator for 4 minutes. In those 4 minutes for that 1 generator to regress, 2 survivors can finish 5 generators and open the exitgate. The only real way of negating this, is to already give survivors generators that are outside your effective region for free to reduce the amount of area you need to patrol. Having survivors being able to negate regression for free, while you kicking 1 generator means that another generator is likely gaining 3 full charges by the time you finished kicking it, which takes roughly 12 seconds to regress passively, the same amount of time you LOSE IN CHASE by kicking a gen, makes it an issue. So again, your logic does not apply.

    The only way your logic fully applies, is assuming the killer can keep more than 1 generator regressing consistently. Which is why Ruin is such a strong hex as long as it stands, as not only does it double the rate, it also keeps all generators that people are not working on in the regression state. But Ruin isnt basekit, its near impossible for a killer to keep more than 1 generator regressing, let alone keep a generator regressing for prolonged times.

    So a TL;DR of the situation

    base gen regression is fine:

    -assuming there will be a 3 gen

    -assuming the killer can down survivors consistently while preventing survivors from breaking 3 gens

    -assuming 1 survivor dies before there is a 3 gen

    -assuming the map has generated with a decent 3 gen in the first place

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606

    "How can I apply more pressure? Without tunneling someone out of the game how can you apply more pressure when there is only one of you and four of them?"

    My main rule of thumb has been: if 3 generators are finished, 1 survivor needs to die. Regardless if the only survivor that is dead on hook has just been unhooked. One of them needs to die. It's not really tunneling, because you already hooked people extremely fairly at that point, and they made the mistake of finishing the 3rd gen before you had a chance of getting someone else dead on hook. Sometimes tunneling is needed. Survivors wont hesitate tapping a generator you just kicked, survivors wont hesitate using DS at 59 seconds, survivors wont hesitate using dead hard to a pallet to extend the chase. So why should you hesitate removing someone from the match if you need someone gone?

    The only way to punish gens going fast, is by making a kill go fast. I prefer hooking everyone twice if I get the chance to, because I enjoy giving survivors the chance to learn, especially since matchmaking is kinda screwy right now, but if I notice a team can handle their own and they are going too fast, they are forcing my hand into killing their teammate. Besides, if someone else was unhooked without you actively going after them, and them crossing your path later on at 3 gens, they ######### up and deserve to be hooked even if they are dead on hook. Tunneling requires you to actively go after someone who was unhooked recently. If it's been 30 seconds of you not actively chasing them and they happen to get across your path, it can no longer be considered a tunnel. I've had cases where I hooked the same person twice in a row with 5 gens remaining, simply because I couldnt find their teammates. I literally spend 40 seconds checking every single gen to find a survivor and looped back on the generator close to the hook to only find the survivor who got unhooked. Sometimes games be like that. Dont be afraid to get hooks on people. As long as you dont rush them out of the game, they've had plenty of time to heal up, work on gens or get their teammates to tank a hookstate.

    Essentially, you seem to be too afraid of people getting mad for being tunneled. Sometimes tunneling is the only way of turning the tides. Do not throw your own game to satisfy your opponents, they wouldnt throw their game to satisfy you either.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited April 2021

    Where is that 15% number coming from? That's 15 seconds of wasted repair time from a 2 second kick, which is a great return on investment in most cases, not a bar to clear before kicking becomes viable. It also makes no sense to count time the gen is sitting there regressing as "killer time" that's being wasted. Without kick-based perks, most of the value of kicking a gen as a killer comes from the passive regression. As in, you have the potential to waste a lot of survivor time without investing much time yourself.

    There is no point in comparing distance lost from tapping a gen mid-chase with kicking a gen mid-chase. As I said in my last comment, you should almost never be kicking a gen mid-chase. Doesn't matter if that gen is at 90%. If you kick that gen and lose at least ~10 meters of distance on the survivor you're almost certainly giving up more time and pressure than you're going to save with that kick. You don't need to "punish" tapping by kicking the gen again. Punish them by quickly downing and hooking them so they're incapacitated, forcing a teammate off gens to come for the save, and chasing a third survivor off of their gen.

    It doesn't matter if you're able to complete the tapping action itself in .1 seconds. You almost always have to deviate your path at least a bit, and therefore lose time/distance, to tap a gen. It's not as simple as standing next to the gen and seeing how fast you can hold and release M1. .5 seconds was meant as a reasonable estimate.

    You can't reasonably argue that giving up distance in a chase for nothing doesn't result in a shorter chases, so I don't think that point is worth addressing.

    It is 8 meters, not 13 meters. 8 meters just takes ~13 seconds to make up.

    It is entirely relevant that survivors do not get passive progress from tapping a gen. As I have already said, the reason that killers need to take time to break a gen is because of the potential passive time gain. Survivors cannot walk up to a gen, tap it, and be rewarded with passive time gain. Tapping a gen is just countering a killer action that passively gives the killer value. If survivors hypothetically had an option to complete an action to make gens passively gain progress I would 100% agree with you that it should require a substantial time investment. Tapping gens is not that. This feels like playing AoE2, charging a few light cavalry into a ball of pikemen, and complaining that pikeman shouldn't be so cheap and comparatively quick to produce instead of realizing that you're not using the light cavalry correctly.

    Making gens specifically harder to tap while you're in a chase needlessly adds complexity to the game and it might not even work as well as you'd think. Plenty of killers will regularly break chase just because of how their power works. The game thinks that the chase is over, but actually Nurse is just on fatigue and waiting for her blinks to charge again, for example. Survivors could just cheese this to tap gens regardless, so between this and just being able to tap gens as normal when you're actually out of chase, you're left with a mechanic that feels extremely inconsistent for both sides.

    The killer is not supposed to be able to counter all gen progress with base regression. It is intentionally slow and counterable so that survivors are actually able to complete their objectives. There is an absolute gulf between "base regression is strong enough to keep up with gen tapping" and "the killer has effectively no chance of regressing any generator", and it's not like a three-gen flips a switch between one and the other either. In a three-gen, unless you have strong kick-based perks or you've already killed a couple surivors (so the tracking element is useful and you're also more likely to get mileage out of the regression), kicking usually isn't a good idea. If survivors know what they're doing they'll be pressuring multiple gens simultaneously, so any kicks will be countered shortly after you switch the gen you're pressuring. The best option is, as usual, not to kick and to prioritize dealing damage. You might not be able to get downs easily in a three-gen, but injuring a survivor at least forces them to run away to heal or makes them vulnerable on the gen. Kicking just wastes your time.

    To address the BT comparison, killers are never forced to kick gens and in fact usually shouldn't be kicking them. If a survivor is tapping a gen in front of the killer and that gen has not been regressing for a while, the killer should not have kicked that gen in the first place. Meanwhile, if a survivor is saving right in front of a killer, maybe they're just farming WGLF stacks with BT or something, but they're usually just doing what they have to do because the killer is camping the hook. The situations are nothing alike. If we're just comparing any two things that relate to survivor and killer objectives we're going to be at it for a while. Also, just don't swing right away if you find people are baiting swings by tapping the person on the hook. It takes a second to unhook a teammate. That is not a lose/lose situation for the killer.


    TL;DR The kicking / tapping dynamic is fine. Killers invest a small amount of time up front for the potential of a big payoff in passive regression. Just don't kick gens at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as killer. Asking for nerfs to tapping or buffs to kicking is just asking for very specific killer buffs, not addressing a fundamentally flawed mechanic. If survivors were overperforming there would be many better ways of tweaking game balance before there'd be any reason to mess with regression.

    It seems like you're frustrated that kicking gens isn't a consistently strong option, but there's really no reason it should be. Keeping kicking a gen a calculated choice keeps the skill ceiling higher as killer, which is good. Buffing regression would disproportionately hurt solo queue, which is bad.

  • Mechanix82Mechanix82 Member Posts: 95

    make ruin base kit for killers

  • ProfGameAndTalkProfGameAndTalk Member Posts: 326

    Make ruin basekit for killers and make DS basekit for survivors. That's my take on it.

  • NickywoowooNickywoowoo Member Posts: 4

    What if they added a totem counter for survivors and made NOED baseline? Then instead of forcing survivors to spend more time on gens, they have a choice of spending time doing totems or push through gens and know they need to deal with NOED. A sort of optional secondary objective that makes endgame harder if ignored.

  • BananaBlooD95BananaBlooD95 Member Posts: 528

    The problem is not the speed of repairing a gen. 80s if fine by mid/late game. The problem is the early game where even the most snowball killer will take so much time to get their first down that 2-3gen can easily pop and by then if survivor play well & have big impact perk (ds/bt/etc) you can't do much afterward.

    What if we made hex more viable and more fair for both side like in this video:


    Survivor can still gen run but they will have to destroy more than just 1 totem to negate a strong hex perk, slowing down the game. Survivor could either play against a strong HEX perk or do a secondary objective.

    Second problem I have is the lack of interaction on the survivor side. Maybe more skill check or have skill check make you press 2-3 different buttons IDK but holding M1 for 80s is just lame.

  • SeraphorSeraphor Member Posts: 4,169

    "base gen regression is fine:

    -assuming there will be a 3 gen

    -assuming the killer can down survivors consistently while preventing survivors from breaking 3 gens

    -assuming 1 survivor dies before there is a 3 gen

    -assuming the map has generated with a decent 3 gen in the first place"

    So we're assuming that the game is balanced around:

    1. Tunnelling one survivor out of the game asap.
    2. Establishing a 3 gen.

    So... why is it bad for a killer to do these things?

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606

    how would you even come to this conclusion? The game is not balanced around getting a survivor out asap, nor is it balanced around getting 3 gens. Heck, the devs have been trying to implement things to prevent 3 gens and rushing kills to be meta and give survivors tools to punish survivors forcing 3 gens or rushing out kills.

    But yeah, base gen regression is what leads a lot of players to decide to rush out a kill and enforce a 3-gen if they assume their opponent is a sweat squad, because its the only true way to use gen regression as a killer. Any other scenario and gen regression is a joke.

    Devs need to give a reason for killers to patrol gens, they need to reward killers for taking time to kick a gen. Gentapping is fine as a mechanic, but the kicking vs tapping is ridiculous.

  • ReinamiReinami Member Posts: 2,426
    edited April 2021

    I'd like to see something that slows down the early game, fixes 3 genning, tunneling and camping and overall makes the game better.

    Tweak numbers, but:

    Double or even triple the time it takes to repair a generator

    Give survivors a stacking buff that increases the speed of repairing a generator by 1%, call it "Hope". Cap it at 150 stacks. Survivors don't gain stacks until either:

    • the killer has hit any survivor
    • The killer goes within 6 meters of any survivor
    • The killer "powers up" in any way (oni, myers, ghostface, etc.)

    If a survivor is being chased, they don't gain stacks. If a survivor is hit, they lose 50 stacks. If they get hooked, they lose all their stacks and don't gain any until they are unhooked.

    This would slow the early game down. It would also highly discourage tunneling, because the guy who just got unhooked has 0 stacks and is repairing generators extremely slowly compared to the other survivors that might be capped on stacks. It discourages camping for the same reason. This also makes 3 genning weaker. Because survivors could go to the other side of the map, and gain stacks, then go start repairing the generator much more quickly. This forces the killer to leave the 3 gen to go after the survivors, or stay and risk them repairing the gen much more quickly.

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606

    "Where is that 15% number coming from? That's 15 seconds of wasted repair time from a 2 second kick" It's 12 seconds of survivor repairs. But it's enough to kick a generator, patrol 4 other generators and return before it's finished, or finish a chase and return before that gen is finished. In total, that's 2 seconds+45 seconds+11 seconds=58 seconds, with 1 second left of it being finished. That is assuming the gen is being solo'd. If its 2 people fixing it, that's a total of 54 seconds. In the same time, survivors could have finished 1 gen together and work on that other gen together, giving 45+7+travel time=52 seconds+travel time. So if 2 survivors are working on a gen together before you have time to kick that generator, you're guaranteed to lose both. Even with the 15% regression, but at least with the 15% regression, you can return to the generator you kicked and potentially injure 2 survivors, slightly shortening the chase while forcing at least 1 heal.

    "As in, you have the potential to waste a lot of survivor time without investing much time yourself." If you call 0.1% potential. That's like saying Power Struggle without flip flop still has the potential to stun the killer. Yes, there is a slight chance for it to work out in your favor, but that is the exception, not the rule.

    "You don't need to "punish" tapping by kicking the gen again. Punish them by quickly downing and hooking them so they're incapacitated, forcing a teammate off gens to come for the save, and chasing a third survivor off of their gen." Again, how? The survivor can easily drop a pallet, tap a gen and leave the area without being punished at all. Tapping a generator is essentially free. No punishments. The only risk you take is that Bloodlust has more time to accumulate, but drop a god pallet and the killer is forced to lose all his stacks. Gen tapping has no punishment. The only punishment that is recieved with gentapping, is the survivor being bad.

    "You almost always have to deviate your path at least a bit, and therefore lose time/distance, to tap a gen. It's not as simple as standing next to the gen and seeing how fast you can hold and release M1." Except, that it is. You almost NEVER have to deviate from your path. Generator inside a T&L? Free tap. Generator in a Jungle Gym? Free tap. Generator in the killer shack? Free tap. Generator in the main building? unless it's Haddonfield, Thompson House, Mother's Dwelling or Coal Tower(aka, the stronger survivor sided maps), free tap. Generators part of a pallet loop? free tap. I can go on. The only generators that are not a free tap, are 4 man gens. The rest are easily a drive-by when you're running towards a pallet or a window anyway. You do not have to deviate from your path in the vast majority of cases.

    "You can't reasonably argue that giving up distance in a chase for nothing doesn't result in a shorter chases" Yes, I can, you know why? Because you can gain distance too. Heck, sometimes losing distance can allow you to gain more distance than not having lost that distance would. Aka a dead hard to a window or pallet to avoid an m1 hit from a killer because he got too close, forcing the killer to walk around, which you might not have been able to do because the distance was slightly longer, meaning you would already be past the window or pallet, which already forced the killer to walk around without using their m1 gaining you distance. Let alone that getting hit in an enclosed area allows you to take advantage of that situation and discombobulate the killer a bit with misleading scratchmarks, which would have been a hit out in the open otherwise. I can think of plenty more situations where giving up distance leads to a longer chase. And even the easiest one: Adrenaline. Tapping a generator to prevent it from regressing means you have more chance of Adrenaline triggering mid-chase, where leaving the generator regressing might trigger Adrenaline too late.

    "It is 8 meters, not 13 meters. 8 meters just takes ~13 seconds to make up." Eh, I'm too far with this comment to look up the original context, worst case scenario, I made 1 mistake by misreading my old comment. The overall point still stands.

    "It is entirely relevant that survivors do not get passive progress from tapping a gen." How is it relevant? Again, there are already gens passively progressing from the killer POV since there are 3 survivors that are not being chased. Having potentially 3 generators being progressed with 1 charge per seconds gives that killer 80 seconds to hook you and push off survivors off all 3 generators before 3 generators pop. A popped generator cannot be undone. Generator regression is more important to a killer than getting hooks is. That is why it's irrelevant. A killer cannot hold m1 on a hook and magically make a survivor appear on there. A killer has to walk around the map to capture his objective. Survivors do not need to walk around for their objectives. Since gen regression is so important for killers, having an action that is essentially free for survivors that completely stops regression, there is an issue. That is why the passive progress is irrelevant. You know what would be equal? The killer being able to instantly down and hook a survivor within 0.1 second of the survivor being unhooked. Yet, that's not the case, let alone that there are perks preventing that from happening. Killers do not have a BT equivalent for generators that they kicked. They do not have a DS equivalent for gens that they have kicked(Overcharge actually gets close, but you can hit a skillcheck to prevent Overcharge, you cant hit a skillcheck to prevent DS as a killer). You might argue that Pop is similar to DS in effect, which is true time-wise, but that only works if they hook a survivor. Which would be like survivors getting DS if they finish a generator. As a killer, you cannot kick a generator and prevent survivors from touching it for 15 seconds. So equal actions: unhooking a survivor vs kicking a generator, taking roughly equal time. Yet one can be cancelled/paused within 0.1 seconds and the other one can be prevented by BT, tanking hits, DS and even Camaraderie. Let alone that killers do not have addons or perks that significantly speed up the sacrificing of survivors. If survivors ignore someone on the hook for 58 seconds and unhook them on the 59th seconds, they still saved the survivor in time. If killers ignore a generator for 78 seconds and kick it on the 79th second, that gen is still lost. Let alone that survivors have access to toolboxes, brand new part, fast track prove thyself, resillience, spinechill and soon object of obsession to increase generator speeds. So yeah, passive progression on generators not being there after a tap is irrelevant. This should clarify why it's irrelevant.

    "The game thinks that the chase is over" You're actually wrong here. The game does not think the chase is over. You still have bloodlust after the music is gone for 5 seconds. The chase isnt over untill 5 seconds after you lost the survivor. Which means that if you re-initiate the chase within 5 seconds, the chase never ended. It just banked the points as a lost chase, but the chase doesnt end there. And if there is enough distance between you and the killer to actually not be in chase, yeah, gen tapping is fine, as it's not mid-chase. As for Nurse. So ######### what? Nurse doesnt need to touch a generator at all. Nurse doesnt need pop, doesnt need ruin, doesnt need anything other than information like Nurses calling, discordance, bbq, shadowborn, sloppy butcher, blood hound, infectious fright. Nurse is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Even more irrelevant than the argument that gentapping doesnt passively progress the generator(it actually can, btw. If you tap a gen with BNP, it will passively gain 15% progress).

    "you're left with a mechanic that feels extremely inconsistent for both sides." Good, because that deters people from relying on it.

    "The killer is not supposed to be able to counter all gen progress with base regression." Never argued that.

    "kicking usually isn't a good idea. If survivors know what they're doing they'll be pressuring multiple gens simultaneously," If this is true in a final gen situation, it's not a 3 gen. It might be close to one, but it is not. A 3-gen gives you the possibility to have equal pressure on minimally 2 gens consistently, being able to keep survivors injured and while they run off, kick the gen they were working on to regress it to 0 while they are forced to heal to try again or try to bait you out. If you cannot afford to kick a gen, you dont have a 3 gen. Just a strong final setup.

    "killers are never forced to kick gens and in fact usually shouldn't be kicking them." They actually should, generator progression being fast enough to finish all 5 generators before the killer is capable of guaranteeing a kill is enough of a factor that killers do need to force generators to regress. Which is why Ruin is ran a lot, because it removes the need to kick gens while also having better regression. Pop is used a lot aswell, but with Pop you actually dont want to kick any generator that has less than 25% progression. Killers SHOULD be forced to kick gens, and in fact kicking them should reward them in some way that punishes a survivor that taps it. Whether that's 5% instant regression or 5-10 seconds of double regression rate doesnt matter. As long as it gives a survivor a reason to not tap the generator in front of a killer that's chasing them.

    "but they're usually just doing what they have to do because the killer is camping the hook." Double standard AND a false assumption. There are plenty of reasons why the killer is nearby a hook: Scratchmarks leading to the hook, the killer actually seeing you run to the hook and trying to hooktrade, the survivor nearing second stage and the killer trying to ensure second stage is being reached. Camping is actually rarely the case for BT triggering. "usually just doing what they have to do" LIKE THE KILLER PREVENTING GENERATORS FROM POPPING BY REGRESSING THEM? Seriously, double standards much.

    "TL;DR The kicking / tapping dynamic is fine." It really isnt.

    "Killers invest a small amount of time up front for the potential of a big payoff in passive regression." 2 full seconds, meaning up to 4 other gens could gain 4 charges, for the 0.1% chance the generator regresses longer than 60 seconds that coincides to a whopping 16 extra seconds of solo survivors touching the gen. Totally fine.

    "Just don't kick gens at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as killer." Just dont unhook survivors at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as a survivor. Oh, nvm, BT. Or just like you shouldnt tap a gen at stupid times an- oh, nvm, dead hard into a pallet. Yeah, totally fine.

    "Asking for nerfs to tapping or buffs to kicking is just asking for very specific killer buffs, not addressing a fundamentally flawed mechanic." So what is it, totally fine or a fundamentally flawed mechanic? You cant have both. And its not a specific killer buff, it's not like it only affects trapper. Its a generic killer buff just to have a quality of life to kicking generators. The suggestion isnt even hard to implement. They already have a similar effect in the game.

    "If survivors were overperforming there would be many better ways of tweaking game balance before there'd be any reason to mess with regression." Except that generator progression vs generator regression is THE reason that survivors are overperforming in high ranks. There is literally no other survivor mechanic in the game that is as impactful as progression vs regression. If killers have enough time, you could literally add 1 billion pallets to the game. You cannot shorten the average chases, because that makes survivor very unfun to play, and killer a lot less skill full. So the average time to match up chase time is to give killers the ability to regress generators. Heck, it could even be basekit that generators start regressing normally and that Pop disables gen regression. Gives Repressed Alliance more play aswell. As long as there is some benefit to gen regression.

    "It seems like you're frustrated that kicking gens isn't a consistently strong option, but there's really no reason it should be." I am actually frustrated at you being incapable or extremely unaware of playing killer. Gen progression is fine as it is, its the ratio between progression and regression that is not. Therefor, gen regression needs to be better. That is the reason that gen regression needs to be stronger. Since survivors can stop generators from regressing the instant they touch a gen, the only reasonable place to add the bonus in gen regression is at the moment of kicking.

    "Keeping kicking a gen a calculated choice keeps the skill ceiling higher as killer, which is good." It really doesnt tho. In fact, giving killers more reason to kick gens normally and finally not needing to rely on Pop or Ruin would increase the skill ceiling. Killers should not require to choose 1 of 2 perks to stand a chance. That's like requiring survivors to be forced to run DS to stand a chance. Survivors never were forced to run any specific perks or perk combination to stand a chance. So why should killers be forced to?

    "Buffing regression would disproportionately hurt solo queue, which is bad." It really wouldnt tho. Besides, even if it would significantly impact soloQ, all the more reason to (finally) add in a ping system. HSHS has a ping system and it actually works more reliable than comms without actively impacting the skill of the killer. Buffing regression is fine.

  • SavouryRainSavouryRain Member Posts: 340

    This still punishes solos while also punishing people for wanting to play with friends.

    If I'm a soloQ teamed up with 3 SWFs, I'm still suffering the effects of them having basically thanatophobia on them. And then if the Killer brings any other slow down perks? Yeah, my team is basically useless for gens at that point.

    Likewise, my friends and I would always have a thanatophobia effect on us? Yeah, that's really fun to work against.

  • StarshadwStarshadw Member Posts: 266

    The issue here isn't gen speed per se - it's the simple fact that in almost every situation, longer matches weaken survivors and strengthen Killers. The more time you give a Killer in a match, the greater the Killer's chances are to get more kills - especially if they are using toxic tactics like slugging and camping. Survivors have no good reason to want to do things that make the match last longer. The secondary objective of totems remains just that - secondary. If you find one, you might cleanse it unless there's a gen nearby, in which case you're probably going to prioritize that gen. The only time you see someone prioritize totems is if they are working on a challenge.

  • Lord_TonyLord_Tony Member Posts: 2,109

    remove gen tapping

    killers take 3 seconds to kick a generator to slowly regress progress

    survivors take 1/60th of a second to stop regression

  • DemonDaddyDemonDaddy Member Posts: 3,486

    Have each hook give the individual Survivor a permanent repair penalty, call it maimed. Killer is rewarded for switching up targets and individual survivors are less likely to be tunnelled but punished for failures.

  • landromatlandromat Member Posts: 2,193

    SWF has advantage so why not? It not punishes solos. Just compensates advantage swf has since you're already in advantage by playing with 3stack.

    Killers are punished just because people want to play with their friends and this is bullshit. Better punish survivors who plays together instead of killer. seems fair for me

  • SammiieK1991SammiieK1991 Member Posts: 686

    No way man, gen times are 80 seconds, that can't go down 50% less than that. Also there is a perk that locks the gens from being used at the start of the match for a period of time.

    Making that 160 seconds for a gen to be fully finished would be absurd. And guess what? You'll more than likely lose alot of survivors for that. As they won't want the hassell of sitting at one gen for 2 minutes. The only way I can think of this being fairly done is maybe them being a single gen? Like one per gen sort of thing? That way it isn't boosted to fast. But I'm adamant 80 seconds is more than enough time before that gen is popped.

    Having said this, I do think from a killer side of things, that it should cause more damage when taking action on the gen, maybe a little more damage on regression? ( if that's the right word)

  • AssassinZodiacAssassinZodiac Member Posts: 259

    Personally, I think we should leave gen speeds the same, or make them progressively slower in the early game at like 60% normal speed and they get faster as the match plays on. So like every 2 minutes that passes the gen speeds go up another 15%. Up to %200 faster after like 15 minutes. That would ensure longer matches overall, but still be fair to survivors. Especially when there are just 2 survivors left. I should mention though that I think this is how gen speeds work in Identity V.

    Also, I think skill check should get harder to hit as you level up from yellow to red ranks. Keep it the way it is currently for yellow ranks. Then decreasing the size of the skill check success zone every color upgrade of rank. Being a higher rank survivor should be able to handle a 50% decrease in skill check success zones.

  • SammiieK1991SammiieK1991 Member Posts: 686

    Gen times take 80 seconds as it is alone my guy. That's more than enough time. Killers just need to put pressure on gens and patrol more... x2 on time wise to fix a gen is absurd. You'd lose alot of survivors, no survivors no match. Who in their right mind wants to sit at a gen for over 2 minutes 😂

  • landromatlandromat Member Posts: 2,193
    edited April 2021
  • landromatlandromat Member Posts: 2,193

    Yeah, that sounds GREAT for sure. Sweaty swfs will get what they deserve finally

  • landromatlandromat Member Posts: 2,193

    SWF is advantage, no matter youre sweating or not. In game advantages must be compensated

  • SoulpawSoulpaw Member Posts: 290

    I'd like to refer to Scott's Jund suggestion. a Warn up Phase. At the start of the game, gen progression speed is at a slow crawl until the first chase officially begins. That way, trap killers can get some time to set up traps before starting a chase and survivors can get an inessive to begin a chase or to not hide the entire game to get the game moving or to harrass trap killers before they officially set up to counter them.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 2,957

    Gen speeds should be faster, not slower. It's too easy for killer to do their objective. Because maps are so nerfed survivors are all going down instantly, every match and with all the slow down perks that already exists, there is no way to finish the gens. It's bad when matches resort to hook farming instead of doing gens since they are practically impossible to do.

  • vladspellbindervladspellbinder Member Posts: 273

    I do like the idea that gens start slower than they are now and get faster as the game goes on. I like the "Hope" idea because it would discourage camping and tunneling. We'll never out right remove either unless it is made literally impossible though so all we can really hope for is some strong discouragements, such as "If you don't hook Survivors they get faster on gens".

    That'd help with camping but not so much tunneling, as if you get one Survivor out of the game A.S.A.P. you don't have to worry about their "Hope" stacks at all. Maybe if there was something along the lines of "If a Survivor is hooked a second or third time without another Survivor having been hooked all Survivors gain a stacking permanent X% bonus to repair, healing, cleansing, and unhooking speeds".

    I am strongly of the mindset that tunneling is only a viable tactic because of gen speeds, so if something is done to give the Killer more pressure or to ease the pressure they are under then you have no reason to tunnel and should be punished for doing so. But as the gen speeds as they are right now I understand why people tunnel and slug, because they don't really have a choice if they want that 4k. Without Ruin and to a lesser extent Pop tunneling and slugging are really your only ways of slowing things down enough to win. So I do understand why they happen. Not really so much when they happen at five gens but I do somewhat understand.

    Camping is a whole other story. There is no reason to ever camp. It is just out right anti-fun and only works against bad Survivors, netting you a 1k and maybe a 2k against good Survivors and you didn't even really play the game at all.

    I agree, that's why I like the idea of adding in something Survivors have to do that makes the game go a bit longer that isn't just upping gen times, or if gen times are upped then adding in something that either lowers them to and then down past base or having something that makes you repair faster.

    I'd rather the later as it feels more rewarding to "Be faster" at something than it does "Make it take less time". The human mindset is a funny thing.

    I strongly believe that being one step closer to being taken out of the game is punishment enough for being hooked. We don't need to layer anymore on people for an honest mistake or just being bad at the game because they are learning.

    The problem with the "Just apply more pressure" argument is that only a few Killers have good mobility options and some are even actively hindered in getting around the map because of their lower base movement speed. Nurse is really the only "slow" Killer not hurt by her base speed because of her Power. [bad word], because of her Power she's got the best mobility of every Killer with a skilled enough Player behind her. Spirit is also really strong because of her mobility, with Hillbilly being decent in getting around as is Cannibal with the right add-ons. New Wraith might become top tier like Spirit but he's got some things holding him back. Nightmare has his porting, which gets stronger as more gens get finished because he has fewer places he needs to check. Hag is alright but she has to control a very tight area because of distance limitations so her Power isn't about getting around as it is protecting key areas like Trapper.

    Map sixes are an issue because of this. I've had a lot of Deathslinger games lately where I go straight from one side of the map to the other and the gen I am heading towards is already at 75+%, because Tinkerer goes off on it, before I even get there and when I do get there it get's finished in my face. Because I couldn't move fast enough to get there even though I had a mostly straight line and didn't get distracted with a chase along the way.

    So until maps are fixed in such a way every Killer can "apply more pressure" our only other option is to look at gen speeds one way or the other. Make them slower, make them require something other than just holding M1 (making them slower because you need to find that thing) or just something that makes it so Survivors get one or two "free" gens because you just happen to be playing a 110% Killer.

    I know I'm on page 3 and there is a page 4 but because of the way these forums work I'm responding on page 3 before looking at page 4 so you two may have already done this but I'm going to say : Don't bother with landromat, they don't want to have a discussion, they just want to be right. It seems that they personally don't play SWF and are heavily Killer sided and as such just want SWf punished, they are not looking for a discussion on how SWF could be more balanced or Solo buffed or Killer made on par with SWF. They just want SWF dead and gone and don't care about anything else.

    So don't bother responding to them anymore, you are only wasting your time and feeding their ego. You'll notice I didn't @ them for this post myself.

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