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How can gen speeds be slowed that is fair for both sides?

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  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited April 2021

    One point I am going to address because it's a pet peeve of mine: Killers statistically overperform at red rank. They do not need to run meta builds and sweat with Nurse or Spirit to have a chance. With rank-based matchmaking, kill rates have been ~70% for years now at red rank. Averaging nearly a 3k in a world where the hatch always opens for the last survivor makes it clear that killer is performing extremely well. Maybe there are unicorn SWF hit squads out there that regularly dominate even the best killers, but if they exist they are necessarily extremely rare compared to red rank players. As a result, killer does not need more net buffs so long as DBD uses rank-based matchmaking.

    With skill-based matchmaking, this might change at the highest slices of skill. If those unbeatable SWF hit squads truly dominate the best killers in the world, this will prove it, and if changes need to be made at that point to adjust the balance in high-skill matches I'm sure the devs will tweak things. Until MMR is running and performing well, though, if you're a red rank killer, you should be performing well. If you're not, it's not regression's fault. It's not the game's fault. You're probably just not as good as the average red rank killer. If you're not performing well and want to get better, look at your own play or even ask people on the forum. If you are already performing well and you're aware that killer overperforms at high rank with rank-based matchmaking, stop asking for buffs.

    ---

    If you're not willing to reevaluate your positions, you're not going to get better at the game, and it's also not worth my time to reply further. The fact that you can't even accept that giving up distance for free in a chase will tend to reduce the length of the chase, while simultaneously making the same argument when you say that regression needs to be stronger to compensate because killers are losing too much distance and therefore time when they decide to kick a gen mid-chase, is Exhibit A that you're just here to disagree.

    By all means, keep kicking those gens when you shouldn't, keep asking for nerfs to bail out your unwillingness to improve your play, and keep assuming that you know more than other people about playing killer. You're only hurting yourself.

  • SkeletalEliteSkeletalElite Member Posts: 2,201

    I think gen speed is fine. If you manage to get good pressure on survivors gen speed slows to a crawl. Once you get your first hook if you keep getting hooks you can pretty much keep it to 1 person repairing at any given time, if you manage to snowball you can completely stop repairs all together.

    Ruin Tinkerer loses effectiveness vs good swfs because the moment you push them off a gen another survivor will come work it before it regresses too much. Compared to solos where ruin most of the time means that generator is going to lose like 50% if you push someone off it.

    If you become over protective of the gens and drop chase every time tinkerer procs, survivors will realize this and begin using it to control you and it will cause you to lose the game. If you want to slow down repairs, you need to make survivors do things that aren't gens. Get more hooks, after you get a hook choose your next chase wisely to make someone go across the map for the save. Slug survivors. When it comes down to it the balance is really about how fast you can get downs. Perks can buy you some time, but in the end you have to down survivors faster to win or camp survivors to death at a 3 gen.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702
    edited April 2021

    Ruin often wins games by itself if survivors can't find the totem. Making it base kit, and therefore uncleansable, would be a massive and unnecessary buff to killer.

    With rank-based matchmaking, high-rank killers perform very well (~70% red rank kill rate for years now). Gen speed therefore does not need to be slowed down in public matches. There could potentially be an argument for helping killers a bit at low rank, since kill rates at low rank are way lower, but base kit Ruin would almost certainly be an overbuff regardless. When MMR is finally working well, it's possible killers may need some help at the very highest skll tiers too. If so, though, making Ruin base kit would seriously swing balance at all ranks, and therefore probably wouldn't be the best option for specifically toning down high-skill survivors.

  • Rectal_ProlapseRectal_Prolapse Member Posts: 60

    I think the gen time is fine as they are, but I do think there should be different rulesets on games based off of the average rank (mmr in the future) which could affect the skillchecks system by making it much less forgiving for more experienced players.

    Skillchecks should actually be a problem if you're on edge, working on that final gen under the killer's TR, not just some minor inconvenience you get rid off like some pestering fly that's landed on top of your tea mug.

  • SammiieK1991SammiieK1991 Member Posts: 686

    @vladspellbinder no the gens need to stay as they are. The time frame on them is 80 seconds. And if the player has problems trying to pressure gens then that's the player In need of some practice and firm game play. It'll be ridiculous adding x2 timing for gens. Like I said, who would want to sit at one gen for over 2 minutes?


    My best advice for the killers is find your most worthy player that's easy to play, practice to get good. Dont take it out on survivors and punish them with a 2 minute gen. I understand the frustration, I really do as i play both sides. And yes 2 gens at the start of the match pop in my face imma have to up my game plan! Thats when the ass kicking gets involved. All this gen rushing strategy business is nonsense. Many times have I played matches against a killer and still at 5 gens and everyone's been hooked at least once. It's about how you play, smart movements... I personally think adding x2 for gen times or a few comments of having to find parts or whatever to fix the gen is an awful idea... its supposed to be a fun game to play. And I'm just hearing negative things about this game now, so I'm going from absolutely loving the game to now do I just uninstall and be done with it? All the moaning on both sides is making the game very stupid to play at the moment... do I still play it? Of course. Just do you. Find your game plan system and stick to it. Cant take everything away from survivors just to suit the killer. This is why most survivors are saying this game is killer sided. And killers be saying its survivor sided, and those who do say that need to find some solid skill and not take it out on each other.

  • Rectal_ProlapseRectal_Prolapse Member Posts: 60

    Make maps smaller or less infinite friendly (Haddonfield, cowshed, badham - looking at you, bud). That would actually improve the experience for both sides.

    Nobody likes to sit on gen for whole match neither playing walking simulator while gens go brrrrrrrrrrrr.

  • JasmineDragonJasmineDragon Member Posts: 372

    that would be seven, and still not even then... Obviously we are including the last check. If 0-15 is a checkpoint why would (whatever the last is)-100 not be one for these purposes? And that still leaves 10% sitting on the table, its uneven for no reason. Sure you can just put 5 extra on the start and end, OR, you just do 16.7. OR just 4 quarters :/

  • GlamourousLeviathanGlamourousLeviathan Member Posts: 782
    edited April 2021

    I feel like this idea has been suggested before but here I go: Make so that gen speeds are proportional to how many survivors are alive. With all 4, gen speeds are reduced, when the first one dies it becomes the normal gen speed and it gets faster until there is only one survivor alive. I like this idea because it helps the killer early game, discourages the killer to tunnel to get fewer survivors on the trial and incentives survivors to go for gens, even though they are in a bad position (like two dead and 4 gens to go).

  • GlamourousLeviathanGlamourousLeviathan Member Posts: 782

    Nowadays, when it gets to this situation the survivors just go hiding and wait for the other one to die to get the hatch. If a progressive gen speed was created, then at least they would have a reason to try and escape together.

  • Alphasoul05Alphasoul05 Member Posts: 599
    edited April 2021

    Gens don't open until you enter into a chase with one survivor, be it by you initiating the chase or a survivor. The only issue with this is stealth killers or killers with undetectable, which I'm sure there are ways to work around, such as a chase being enabled by virtue of an invisible TR that is applied when a survivor enters into x distance of you. You could also get around this by putting a simple CI timer on it all gens, which allows survivors the choice to stay immersed until every gen opens up. This forces killer interaction and also encourages you to take some time to go for chests or totems, which means it's a benefit to the killer and the survivor, as Hex's aren't super uncommon.

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,606
    edited April 2021

    "Killers statistically overperform at red rank. They do not need to run meta builds and sweat with Nurse or Spirit to have a chance. With rank-based matchmaking, kill rates have been ~70% for years now at red rank. Averaging nearly a 3k in a world where the hatch always opens for the last survivor makes it clear that killer is performing extremely well."

    Killers statistically overperform due to the following reasons:

    Red rank survivor mains are objectively worse at the game overall than red rank killer mains. Killers have an easier time picking up survivor gameplay and are practically guaranteed to be red rank survivors, where survivors need to learn a lot of things before they can touch red rank killer.

    Once 1 survivor is dead relatively early on, its easy to snowball the rest.

    Once killers have slugged more than 1 person in a short amount of time and see a 3rd injured person, they can very easily decide to slug for a 4k and win that game. Let alone that they would be forced to slug to achieve this, to stop gens from progressing. Slugging is not the solution to genspeeds.

    Sometimes you get your 4k with only 5 total hooks, because you were only able to hook 1 survivor early game, with 3 generators popping, then the rest of the team not healing up and just pushing gens, triggering NOED which can easily lead to a 3k.

    Because the end results are similar, does not mean the killer performed well.

    Killers can snowball extremely hard in a singular moment, regardless of their overall performance. Survivors do not really have resources to combat it.

    So while I agree that on average the game is fine, that doesnt mean it actually is. Because it's purely done through people playing nice, not rushing gens all the time, killers not rushing kills. I mean, do you think Nurse is easy to defeat? Statistically, she only gets a 2k on average, so Nurse is a terrible killer, right? Or not even this game, did you know that hate crime is a minority group in race based crimes, which is a minority in direct assault, which is a massive minority in crime overall. Does that mean it's fine because hate crime is statistically negligable? THIS is why statistics dont really say too much. It's at best an indication, but it needs context.

    "With skill-based matchmaking, this might change at the highest slices of skill. If those unbeatable SWF hit squads truly dominate the best killers in the world, this will prove it, and if changes need to be made at that point to adjust the balance in high-skill matches I'm sure the devs will tweak things."

    MMR would only prove my point further. This is general knowledge amongst players who have decent gameknowledge. I have enough experience and am not biased to my own skill. I know when I made a mistake, I know when my opponent made a mistake, I recognise when my opponent got lucky or when they calculated it prior to it. You have no clue how often I have faced killers who only won due to rushing a kill, you have no clue how often I have faced survivors who won due to rushing gens, regardless if they played well simply because the killer I played lacked the ability to finish chases and doesnt really have much power in slowing down gens(Myers has this a lot, especially because there is a limited amount of times you can instadown, even though you have killers like Bubba that are faster, equally mobile AND has a basekit instadown always available). You dont need MMR to prove the point, when players who play both sides already notice things they can and cannot improve upon. I have played games as killer that were so against my favor that even if I played absolutely perfectly, I wouldnt be able to win, let alone get more than 1 kill. The only vanilla mechanic I would have was rushing a kill, which was disabled due to old DS. I have also played games that were so much in my favor, that I could hook everyone once, then everyone a second time, before survivors could finish 3 generators simply because there were no usable tiles(the only reason making your position that "genregression is fine because of statistics" semi-valid, FYI, if there are no tiles to loop, gens cannot go fast enough, this is why The Game is extremely killer sided once all the pallets are gone)

    --

    "If you're not willing to reevaluate your positions, you're not going to get better at the game""

    Except that I have been re-evaluating my positions, a LOT. You simply seem to be ignorant about the base mechanics and point to statistics to prove your own point.

    "The fact that you can't even accept that giving up distance for free in a chase will tend to reduce the length of the chase"

    I do accept that it technically reduces the length of a chase, but YOU do not accept that sometimes less distance can lead into more distance. The perfect example: chase being reduced even by 4 meters can make the difference between 1 pallet loop giving you a down and the survivor dead harding to the pallet to drop it and extend the chase by another 20 seconds. Let alone the fact that decision making changes a lot based on distance, one point you might need to make a hard left and encounter a lucky pallet, extending the chase and otherwise you'll probably hold w and try to go for the tile in front of you. Giving up distance does not equal reducing the length of a chase. Random hail mary decisions will often lead to longer chases.

    "while simultaneously making the same argument when you say that regression needs to be stronger to compensate because killers are losing too much distance and therefore time when they decide to kick a gen mid-chase"

    You do not understand the point here. We're talking a base genregression of 300 seconds for a generator to fully regress to zero, that can be stopped from any regression at all by tapping it mid chase while having minimal punishment. Do you know how long it takes to end a chase? Like, total time. Not just the moment the chase starts, because then it tends to last 30 seconds on average, I mean the time it takes for the killer to find a survivor, the time it takes to going from downing 1 survivor, to hooking them, to starting a chase with another survivor. Even with perks like BBQ, it can take up to 90 seconds to start another chase, and that is a perk that lets you know WHERE a survivor is. If you dont run BBQ, it can take much longer. You know what 2 survivors can do in those 90 seconds? Unhook their teammate and finish 2,5 generators. The only reason we dont see this more often, is because there is no way to communicate between solo survivors and SWF's are more likely to want to have fun. So games are already slowed down because survivors prefer to go for fun more than sweat it out, it's not a secret that the average red rank killermain is a better overal player than the average red rank survivormain(with mixed players tending to be better than both). So we have a player at higher skill consistently playing against players of lower skill(which, again, nudges statistics towards killers overperforming). If killers want to play fair against survivors, they would be throwing their own game at the current state of the meta. Too often do you hear "I am playing too nice" on killers who have hooked everyone once when only 2 generators are gone, even though chases are quick and hooks are consistent. But it should be fine if generator regression was fine, right? Survivors are at 3/7th of their objective while you are at 1/3rd, not that big of a gap, right? Except that survivors only have 3 gens to care about, while the killer still has 4 survivors to care about. General rule of thumb is that at least 1 survivor has to be dead on hook with 3 gens left, and 1 survivor must be dead with 2 gens left. With 4 people on their first hook, who is going to die? Genregression is not fast enough here to keep the killer playing fair. This is why Pop and Ruin are perks that are consistently ran together, 2 perks dedicated to generator regression, not because they want to, because they feel they need to. Survivors do not have a single perk they need to equip to win a game against killers of equal skill, yet killers do need Pop and/or Ruin to achieve the same. 2 perks that are designed with gen regression in mind. That's like survivors running Dead Hard and Lithe to make sure they get away from a killer.

    Not even including the fact that there is no way to speed up hooks without the aid of survivors, while survivors can slap on toolboxes and perks to speed up their own objective. And yet here you are, still arguing base gen regression is fine. If base gen regression was fine, killers wouldnt feel the need to run Ruin or Pop and rather go for perks like Madgrit, Iron Maiden, Dying Light or Sloppy. You rarely see those perks at all and they are considered filler perks for most killers. Remove Ruin and Pop from the equation, and suddenly the "overperformance" disappears.

    "By all means, keep kicking those gens when you shouldn't, keep asking for nerfs to bail out your unwillingness to improve your play, and keep assuming that you know more than other people about playing killer. You're only hurting yourself."

    You are actually illiterate, arent you? The comparison I made was a survivor touching a gen mid chase vs a killer touching a gen mid chase. The survivor only "loses" 2 meters with teammates touching other gens, while the killer would lose 8 meters without other killers chasing other survivors away. Meaning that with the survivor gentapping, you completely stop regression for a price that's so significantly small that it might aswell not exist. If kicking a generator mid-chase is unviable, then so should gentapping be unviable. Dont go for a double standard. Gens already take 5 full minutes to regress and in that same time you can finish 4 other generators. While for a killer to kick ANY generator, be it in or out of a chase, would also lead in at least 2 generators gaining 5% more charges than if the killer fully ignored that generator, which can be up to 30% if people brought toolboxes and Prove Thyself. The only counterplay then? Tunneling a survivor out. You cannot reliably kick any generator without risking another one, so the other option is to kill a survivor early to slow the game down.

    Do you want tunneling to remain meta? I sure dont. But it is needed, BECAUSE BASE GEN REGRESSION IS TOO SLOW.

  • HollowsGriefHollowsGrief Member Posts: 1,497

    There are a number of good ideas in this thread but the end result is the same: current base gen regression is severely outdated. Gens should lose a small % the moment they are kicked and base regression needs a buff. This gives killers more control over defending gens without actually making gen time longer so it's not "boring" for survivors. I highly doubt the devs do this but it is a great idea none the less.

  • Friendly_BlendetteFriendly_Blendette Member Posts: 2,498

    Quite frankly just no. It woul dmak ehte game much more boring for survivors which is a bad thing and honestly it just taking longer would not adress a lot of the issues with them like the pisspoor base regression or big maps/

  • Mechanix82Mechanix82 Member Posts: 95

    From the stuff i have seen the only killer to even get close to 3 kills on average is Freddy who just got nerfed. I cant find any data showing that high a kill rate on red ranks. In red ranks the game is ultimately decided by the survivors do they make good choices or not? Now a good killer will make them pay for bad decisions while a bad killer will not. I think base kit ruin (even if you slow it to 150%) would help balance the game in natural way. The biggest thing is killers are almost force at red ranks to bring atleast one most likely 2 gen slowdown perks. The regression of a kick takes to long with no real benefit as survivors can tap gens much faster than the kicking animation. Even if you dont want ruin as base kit you have to admit the regression on gens when they are not being worked on is not enough

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,702

    I have links to the stats from 2016, 2018, 2019, and 2020 in [this post]. Kill rates were in the 70% ballpark at red rank in both 2019 and 2020.

    I feel the game is decided by decisions on both sides. Maybe you're right and survivors are actually in the drivers seat, but if that's true there must just be so few survivor squads capable of playing clean enough to retain that advantage that it's basically irrelevant when talking about red rank game balance. If an appreciable number of squads could do this kill rates would not be so high.

    I seldom run meta builds on either side and probably 2/3 of my ~1200 hours on this game were spent playing survivor. I still consistently perform better as a killer in red rank than I do as survivor. As a survivor I die most of the time. As a killer, I 4k or 3k + hatch most of the time. This is purely anecdotal and therefore not meaningful, but it's also pretty a pretty standard experience given the kill rates at red rank.

    In my opinion regression doesn't need to be changed because 1) the mechanic is not fundamentally flawed and 2) stats show that killers are already doing well overall. Killers just need to not kick gens at disadvantageous times if they want to improve their play. Most killers kick gens way too often in my opinion.

  • Mechanix82Mechanix82 Member Posts: 95

    So i seen the post. What im wondering is it taking into account d/c, killing yourself on first hook or disconnects? Im just asking as i did not research further. i believe unless you have a breakdown of how these stats are obtained (which i will definately look at if you do). These kill rates are definately flawed to a major extent.

  • RaptorrotasRaptorrotas Member Posts: 2,583

    Devs admitted the statristics only tracked the killer ranks. For all that it's worth.

    Red rank killer vs rainbow survivors sure is reliable in showing "red rank" stats.

  • Mechanix82Mechanix82 Member Posts: 95

    I just dont see the reasoning, i dont have statistic in front of me but i would bet 75 to 80 percent of all killers run one if not two forms of gen slowdown. Why do you think that is? Because unless you are going against an uneffiecient group say rainbow colors. Without it you will lose minus certain killers that can cause map pressure. So if killers have to use two perk slots to maintain a balance that gives them a chance to win how is regression not flawed?

  • PlunderingPandaPlunderingPanda Member Posts: 112

    I actually just made up a perk for this in the "make your own perk" thread. I designed it specifically so that it will take more time away from generators than it gives back, but it gives back the time in the late game and thus survivors might voluntarily pick this in order to counter "3-genning" and other fun late-game scenarios. My hope is that it would extend the early game while making the late game a little less painful.


    It was inspired by the fact that I am currently playing dbd when I should be productive:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Procrastinator:

    You have always been terrible at getting things done early, but you always make up for it at the last minute!

    You suffer a permanent 30/25/20% speed penalty when repairing generators.

    For every 60 seconds spent repairing generators you gain 1 token, up to a maximum of 5 tokens.

    While repairing a generator, you can press the active ability button in order to consume all tokens and instantly increase generator progress by 10% per token.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    10% sounds crazy high, and I originally thought I would suggest 5%, but the benefit was way too small for survivors to be interested. For the sake of playing the number game:

    Total generator time with this perk (5 gens completed) = 480 seconds (up from 400)

    Total time gained from this perk (assuming 5 generators are ONLY worked by people with this perk, and never regressed) = 64 seconds


    In general a full team of survivors can't get more than 8 tokens (as a team) and that's assuming that they spread it around in the most efficient way possible (very unlikely). However, more tokens may be generated when regression perks are used (such as Ruin) or generators are getting kicked a lot.

  • PabloLovesMCPabloLovesMC Member Posts: 163

    If you speed it up there is a large possibility that you could loose 2-3 gens before you find the first survivor making you unable to use it

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