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Here's how we balance SWF



  • SonzaishinaiSonzaishinai Member Posts: 6,747

    As long as it's optional I would be fine with it. Just don't force me to listen to random strangers

  • TicTacTicTac Member Posts: 2,228

    I dont think so. In tournaments spirit/nurse can win against teams with comms. They can win bc they ignore pallets and even good survivor cant loop forever. This shows that the real problem are survivor who can loop and waste too much time. Swf makes the team only a bit more efficient in most cases. Swf bonus is greater for bad players bc they hide more in solos.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460
    edited May 2021

    Normalize it? No. There is no way to perfectly balance the potential information of Comms, but a 5th Perk Slot on Killers is a serious Force Multiplier. The combinations now possible would certainly grant a hard to measure competitive edge, just like Comms itself.

    I'm not sure I understand that last question. Did you mean to say, how would I counter the disadvantage a Stealth Killer faces with one additional Perk? I hope that was your meaning, and I'll proceed for now as if it is so.

    1. Stealth Killers are actually less disadvantaged against SWF than other Killers. Remember that a SWF's primary advantage is passing information. Stealth Killers are harder to pinpoint and thus get their information shared. I am far more effective against a SWF playing slow Spooky Myers (Scratched Mirror + Boyfriend's Memo) than I am playing faster, terrifying Maniac Myers builds which are full speed. *Being Undetectable with no Red Stain and no Terror Radius makes it much harder to triangulate my position. They literally have to see me and can't just use the Terror Radius and each other to bird dog me. Does this make sense?
    2. One Build I would do for my Spooky Myers, if I had the extra slot is: Agitation, Star-Struck, Mad Grit, Iron Grasp, and Corrupt Intervention. I expect I would have most of them slugged before Corrupt ended.
    3. It doesn't sound like much but one additional Perk is huge.

    Consider the implications of stacking multiple regression Perks up, all the good ones. There are just too many combinations now possible to fully relate. Like Comms itself, the potential is huge, but it isn't automatically OP. The Killer still has to make USE of the potential, and like some SWF it could be squandered.

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 20,621

    Like Comms itself, the potential is huge,

    Brutal/Bamboozle/Fire Up/Enduring/Spirit Fury Nurse.

    I want your idea implemented just so I can use that build

  • TicTacTicTac Member Posts: 2,228

    I think its different. I dont need a swf telling me that oni is chasing them bc i know that i can get to safety when i hear his terror radius. The killer location against non-stealth-killer is not really important in most cases. If it becomes harder to know where the killer is the information becomes more valuable. So while its harder to get the information if the swf gets the location of the stealth killer it has more impact on the game.

    I just think the benefit of a fifth perk varies between killers and while some are fine with an extra ruin, others will always have it easier against solos. But imo swf is not the real balance problem its bad matchmaking. I think that the difference between 4 good solos and a good swf is smaller as most people think.

    But if the MMR-system does not fix the killrate we have right now, then killer would need a nerf against solos instead of a buff against swf.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 6,101


    and let me guess you are playing against the top red rank survivors?

    Dude. Do you even listen to yourself sometimes? I check their names and many times they are streaming so I am only speaking from the ones where I know for a fact they are SWF.

  • SeraphorSeraphor Member Posts: 4,558
    edited May 2021

    Nah, forced voice chat is not an answer. I don't want to have to use voice chat with random people, and I'm on console using discord with my friends so having multiple chat streams isn't an option either.

    But you're on the right track. Buff solo's capacity for coordination closer to that of a SWF, and you level the playing field enough to adjust balance in favour of the killer at higher skill levels.

    1. Survivors can view each others perks and item loads outs in the lobby, so they know the capabilities of their team mates.
    2. Survivors can press a button to trigger a pre-set map-wide message, something like "Killer is here", "Coast is clear", "Help me", "Leave me". In addition, have this 'ping' in their direction so you know where the message is coming from. Maybe with a 30s cooldown.
    3. Make the 'Glass Bead' add-on a default mechanic of all maps.
    4. Make something 'like' Kindred/Empathy/Bond a basekit feature. Perhaps you can hold down a button to trigger 'Survivor Instinct' which gives you a general direction that each survivor is in via the 'heartbeat' graphic of Killer Instinct. Give it a cooldown obviously. This wouldn't be an aura so not technically as strong as Kindred etc.

    None of these things would buff SWFs, as communication via comms does the same thing. But it will bring solo players up closer to the capabilities of a SWF.

    Once Solos are closer to SWFs, other balance changes can be made, like reducing gen speeds or whatever is necessary.

    As for the "fifth perk slot for killer" idea. I think this could work IF it was restricted only to Hex perks, and was the only way to use Hex perks. So that every game would come with just one Hex. This would require an overhaul of the Hex perk system though, and require them to be balanced in a way that wasn't too OP, considering it's effectively making one Hex per game a basekit tool, but at the same time, Hex perks would scale with the number of totems uncleansed, so they're no longer all-or-nothing. I have some ideas for this too:

    Hex: Blood Favour - Pallets are held in place for 4 seconds for each uncleansed totem (20 seconds max).

    Hex: Crowd Control - Vaulted windows are blocked for 2/3/4 seconds for each uncleansed totem (20 seconds max).

    Hex: Devour Hope - Maximum number of tokens you can have is 1 + number of uncleansed totems. Haste effect is available with just 1 token. (much easier to remove the exposed effect, but the haste will persist)

    Hex: Haunted Ground - A survivor becomes Exposed when they cleanse a totem, Exposed status persists until they cleanse another totem. Gain an audible notification when a survivor becomes Exposed. (individual comeuppance for potentially longer duration instead of all survivors)

    Hex: Huntress Lullaby - Maximum number of tokens you can have is 2 + number of uncleansed totems.

    Hex: No One Escapes Death - Gain 1 token for each uncleansed totem when the last gen is repaired. All survivors are Exposed while you have at least 1 token. Putting a survivor into the dying state consumes a token. (Generic Perk)

    Hex: Retribution - When a totem is cleansed you see the auras of all survivors for 3 seconds for each uncleansed totem (12 seconds max). You gain Undetectable for 6 seconds for each uncleansed totem.

    Hex: Ruin - So long as you have at least 1 totem, generators automatically regress and cannot be kicked. Each additional uncleansed totem increases regression speed by 25% up to a maximum of 200%. (Moved to be a Generic Perk, the Hag gains a new perk to replace it.)

    Third Seal - No longer a Hex Perk. Survivors hit with your basic attack suffer from Blindness for 60/75/90 seconds.

    Hex: Thrill of the Hunt - Effect remains as long as there is any one totem standing. Increase the bloodpoint bonus to 20% per token for ALL categories. (Generic Perk)

    Undying Hex - No longer a Hex Perk. The Aura of any survivor working on a totem is revealed to you for 2/4/6 seconds. When your final totem is cleansed, another random totem will be rebuilt once per trial.

    Hag’s replacement for Ruin - When a survivor is rescued from the hook, they are cursed for the next 45/60/75 seconds. When repairing a generator, any good skill checks result in 5% regression and any great skill checks result in 1% regression. Only one survivor can be cursed at any time.

    So this way, Hags triple Hex situation is fixed, and there are three generic Hex perks to choose from. NOED (token based), Ruin (varying regression speeds) and Thrill (better BP bonus).

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 5,984

    Making some information perks basekit to buff solo Q to SWF would be a start. Good examples: Kindred, Buckle Up, Totem Counter basekit.

    Once solo Q and SWF are equal then I think it would be fair to buff killers and adjust some perks.

  • Aven_FallenAven_Fallen Member Posts: 12,449
    edited May 2021

    It would be a better solution, yes. So basically removing the information gap by giving Ingame Information. Like, a Command Wheel which indicates like "I am being chased" or "Doing a Totem" or "Going for Unhook" does nothing for SWFs, but would increase the information for Solos.

    But, and this is a BIG but - BHVR will not do that. Just look at the Totem Counter we got - Totem Counters were asked for for years and we finally got it - bound to a Perk. They also said that there are no plans to make Kindred Basekit, which was also asked for for a long time (even before the Buff).

    I also dont know why there is no basic Chase Indicator and you only know that another Survivor is being chased when they are the Obsession. So there are no plans for the near future to close the Gap between SWF and Solos.

    I will just post the screenshot I posted in another reply to you (which you ignored):

    (Again, no names censored, nobody did anything wrong, they were all nice players)

    This is a 4 man SWF. Yes, they are not all Red Ranks, but this can happen in SWF, they are just friends playing together. The game is able to see if Survivors in the Lobby are SWF, however, it cannot see if those people are actually good at the game.

    A fifth Perk Slot for me in this case would just mean that those guys stood even less of a chance - I did not tunnel or camp anyone (everyone got quite some points, so nobody died early) and still they did not manage to do all 5 Gens. How exactly do you wish to demolish those casual players, if I get access to another Perk Slot (like Corrupt Intervention to give me an even better early game, or Pop goes the Braincell?)?

    It would basically be frustrating for every SWF which is not full of tournament players, those are the only SWFs which make Killer hard. However, there is maybe a dozen of those worldwide, not really a problem.

    (Really, "highest level of play" is just an excuse to keep Bullshit in the game, while nobody who is talking about "highest level of play" is actually experiencing it...)

    So, as long as the game cannot really predict that I (in this case) really NEED a fifth Perk Slot, otherwise I would get demolished, giving such a high advantage to the Killer is simply wrong. It would just punish those players who would have lost anyway, but they would get even less done (like, those guys got 4 Gens done, I was in no danger of losing at any point... Should I finish the game with 5 Gens left instead?...)

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    I didn't ignore it; I wasn't sure how to address it. I have a feeling that you would destroy the same group with zero Perks. I'm not certain you are the best person to judge it by. I also want to point out that while I agree with you that SWF do not automatically equate to good, all SWF do have a competitive edge. It is a "potential" advantage. I think an additional Perk Slot on Killers is the same thing, i.e. a "potential" advantage. Many Killers are just bad and giving them another Perk slot isn't going to make them good either.

    Just because a large number of SWF aren't good doesn't mean the advantage isn't there. There is a reason we are suffering for Killers right now. For what it is worth, I don't have massive problems with SWF either, but I'm insanely competitive. I'm not a good person to judge it by either. Something has to be done. I cede the point that my idea might be too much, but doing nothing isn't viable at this rate either.

  • swager21swager21 Member Posts: 1,019

    just give us basekit kindred

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