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Can NOED please get a nerf



  • Nos37Nos37 Member Posts: 2,711

    "3. NOED functions in identical ways to several Survivor Perks, triggering when the Generators power."


    Wrong. It triggers when the exits are powered. 0 gens completed and NOED will still activate if the killer closes hatch.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 2,098

    Actually, there's only two proper counters to NOED: Checking totems after fifth gen is done, and hoping the killer has identifiable perks.

    'Do bones' is the old adage but it misses the mark in a somewhat subtle way, and Small Game's revamp actually highlights this. Yes, you can scramble up and down the map looking for totems to ensure that all five are down, but the problem with that is that it makes NOED a better slowdown perk than Thanatophobia, especially in solo queue where, unless you have Small Game or Detective's Hunch, you have no way to confirm that all totems are gone. You could be going around an area that someone else already cleansed, too, making the totem in that area suck up twice as much time.

    Additionally, the idea that you should just bring perks to counter it is also a problem, since we only have four perk slots. We need Small Game or Detective's Hunch in case of NOED, Unbreakable in case of a slugger, Borrowed Time in case of a camper, Decisive Strike in case of a tunneller, and Iron Will in case of a Spirit.

    On top of all of this is the fact that NOED isn't declared until it activates. You could say that, unless you can pinpoint all killer perks (For instance: Ruin, Undying, Iron Maiden, Dragon's Grip. All perks that are easily identified), you should be preparing for NOED. But what if there's a trickier perk in play that you can't identify as easily, such as Discordance, Surveillance, Monitor & Abuse, Nurse's Calling or Barbeque & Chili?

    In that case it's a complete gamble. Yes, you could run Small Game/Detective's Hunch into it and spend a good minute or two hunting down totems in an effort to block it, but what if it turns out that perk number 4 was actually just Enduring? That means you used up a perk slot and a bunch of time to counter a NOED that wasn't picked up.

    It just boils down to four scenarios:

    A) All totems were done, and there was NOED: Killer got heavy slowdown.

    B) All totems were done, there was no NOED: Killer got -free- heavy slowdown.

    C) Not all totems were done, there was NOED: Killer gets a free kill, possibly more.

    D) Not all totems were done, there was no NOED: Neither killer nor survivor benefit.

    Add Small Game/Detective's Hunch run as counters and the situations get worse for survivors. (Barring the Inner Strength combo)

    The mere existence of NOED is forcing a lose/lose onto survivors. That's why it's creating such a fuss in the community. It's not fun to play against, and the only counter makes it not fun to NOT play against either.

    At the absolute -minimum-, the totem counter should've been a universal, baseline aspect, not tacked onto Small Game. It would at least alleviate the NOED tax a little bit.

  • Power_GuyPower_Guy Member Posts: 1,572

    The thing about your idea is...Well, I'll try to explain my view, but I'm bad at formulating my thoughts:

    The risk of totems is that you have to run the danger of the Killer finding you while you search for totems. And you run the risk of never finding all the totems.

    Then SWFs started counting totems as they go, and suddenly Hex perks became absolute garbage. One SWF dude could run detection perks & tell everyone where totems were, and they could share how many they all have cleared. They would know, exactly, how many totems remained, which meant things like Hex: NoED never saw the end game. Because every Survivor knew to clear the last totem before popping the last gen.

    So if you add a solo counter; now EVERY player knows how many totems remain. And unless they are bad, they will stop working gens to ensure NoED NEVER pops. Because they'll know if their teammates did not do gens.

    A totem counter, without a perk, would be the same as deleting NoED from the game. Survivors could run a full meta AND know if they cleared every perk. Exactly like a SWF, sure. But SWF information is a large reason why Hex perks are pure garbage.

    Basically: If every player had a base-kit totem-countdown, then no Hex perk would ever be played, because they would always, ALWAYS be cleansed before the end game. This would basically nerf Hexes into the grave. 4 Survivors running 4 meta perks plus a free totem countdown.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    <laughs> You know what I meant, i.e. when all five Generators are powered. Adrenaline, NOED, and Hope all kick in at the same time. It is to up the stakes for the final run.

  • UnifallUnifall Member Posts: 749

    Should have looked harder.

  • swager21swager21 Member Posts: 1,019
    edited May 2021

    thats over 3 minutes of not doing generators or helping teammates. dealing with noed is probably the better solution, and that is saying something. theres more bad arguments in here than i care to point out

    BTW, do you know how slim the chances of us getting matched together are?

  • SeraphorSeraphor Member Posts: 4,182
    edited May 2021

    I think Hex perks in general need to be reworked, into perks that have up to 5 active tiers and which tier it is depends on how many totems remain uncleansed. That way, they're not 'all or nothing' deals that are either way too OP or completely wasted.

    NOED could be reworked quite well in such a system, into something like:

    When the final generator is repaired, NOED gains tokens equal to the number of totems uncleansed. Any successful hit will consume one token and put the survivor into the dying state.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 2,098

    You're skipping a few steps in your reasoning there. Yes, a baseline totem counter would counter NOED, but how would it affect literally any other Hex? Are you going to suddenly know where Ruin is just because you know a teammate, somewhere on the map, has cleansed a totem?

  • Power_GuyPower_Guy Member Posts: 1,572

    Fair enough, but endgame Hexes (and I'm going to guess some more will be added in the future.) would be rendered useless.

    Plus, it nerfs the Killer as well; Survivors who don't know how many Totems remain may wander around looking for them. Which means the Killer may find them faster. Whereas a Survivor who knows when the last Totem is cleaned will stop looking, and either hide or do gens.

    So a totem counter actually reduces the risky gameplay Survivors have to do to find totems. Either that, or they have to prepare for an unknown end game.

    But a totem counter removes that risk of the unknown. Survivors stop thinking 'I'm going to look for totems' and start thinking 'All totems have been cleansed'.

  • PigMainBigBrainPigMainBigBrain Member Posts: 1,855

    Doesn't matter, theres 4 survivors in a game. As long as people keep playing like you in low ranks, I'll keep winning. And it won't even be due to NoED. It'll be because of some other hex perk thats just as effective, or some other mechanic thats just as effective. Even more so if survivors keep coming up with excuses as to not do an objective. As survivor sided as this game is, players who play like you actually help keep it balanced. NoED is only 1 guaranteed kill at the end of a match....and honestly....in the amount of time it takes to activate....if you need it to activate you've already lost the match. On the same token....we have survivors like the OP who get wiped by it. Mostly because survivors are always goofin ass around the map not doing anything....

    Up until Red Ranks....I never see survivors cumulatively doing objectives.....NEVER.... You always have 1 guy who gets caught out. One guy who's off by himself....digging through a toolbox while there is a clear and present threat to the completion of the game. One guy who's setting up to get the hook save. And one guy who's STILL CONTEMPLATING WHICH GEN HE SHOULD START DOING AFTER HE'S PASSED AT LEAST 3! With teams like that you were gonna lose with or without NoED due to stupidity alone. Again, against a competent set of SoloQ red rank survivors NoED is a joke, and only guarantees you 1 hook after it procs. Which tells me, that if it has become a threat by that time as in enough to get a 4k it doesn't matter. Your team was gonna get wiped regardless. 3 Minutes of cleansing Totems, plus 6 minutes of doing all 5 generators ASSUMING YOU'RE THE ONLY SURVIVOR EVEN PLAYING.

    If you split that up between 4 survivors, and you're all ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING, thats 100 seconds of generator repairs each, and 45 seconds of Totem time each. Thats 2 and a half minutes roughly of doing objectives EACH SURVIVOR PER GAME WITHOUT INCLUDING TOOLBOXES OR ANY GEN RUSH PERKS......

    Again....if your team can't afford that kind of time per player, you were gonna lose anyway because of the Jake running around in circles or the Neon colored Feng Min choosing to just not hide....giving the killer one less idiot on the field to deal with making all the other survivors jobs harder.

    What gets me about survivors....is the fact that a lot of them think they're doing it right.....when they usually just set themselves up for failure. Like I don't even know why I play killer, survivors do the best job of killing themselves without my help. Up until Red Ranks where they actually grow brains.....

  • PigMainBigBrainPigMainBigBrain Member Posts: 1,855

    Then enjoy losing....I run Franklins against item heavy teams, and change up the way I play constantly. If you only play 1 build....then you should be prepared to lose the same way over and over again playing that build. Its like running a stealth build, and then being mad when you lose to a chase because you didn't have the right tools. But again hey, you did exactly what I figured you were going to do and make up pretty much the excuse I was expecting. So.....easy prey is easy prey....have a good day.

  • LaluziLaluzi Member Posts: 4,285
    edited May 2021

    There are more scenarios than that. I can't count the number of times I ignored a bone next to the last gen, and it lit up the second I finished. Killer enjoys 14 seconds of 3% movement speed. NOED has many clauses where it doesn't get value. Killer isn't anywhere near survivors when the last gen pops, checks the wrong exit gate, everyone's in the clear. Killer gets one down with NOED, can't find anyone else, NOED gets cleansed, and then the survivors go in for the save and there's little the killer can do.

    NOED can be countered by doing totems. NOED can be countered by not doing totems and remembering where they are, so the odds of NOED spawning in an area you can predict outweighs it spawning somewhere you can't find, and you didn't waste any time earlier on. NOED can be countered by a map. Even if you weren't paying attention earlier and don't have a map, NOED can be countered by searching for totems before trying to save - players with some experience in the game have a better idea of where totem spawns can be, and you will generally not be pressured during this search because NOED users are going to be at the hook or the exit gates. Hell, Soul Guard is a fantastic counter to NOED because if the killer picks you up to hook you, someone else can run in and unhook their previous target. And I consider it a counter to NOED when survivors just go 'screw this' and leave instead of running into the meat grinder. There's nothing wrong with a 1k and the notion of 'it's not a win if we had to leave someone behind/if I played well throughout the match but died at the last second' is just as misbegotten as 'it's not a win unless I 4k.'

    I'm not opposed to making the totem counter basekit, and it would be a good bridge between solo and SWF, but the OP's suggestion of making NOED spawn at the start of the game and be cleansable throughout is horrendous and essentially guarantees it will never do anything. How often is a hex still standing at the end of a match? (And NOED itself isn't a slowdown perk - the threat of NOED is, the same way the threat of a DS may stop a killer from tunneling. Without NOED, there would be zero reason for anyone to pay attention to dull totems and they'd serve no purpose except for Nancy fodder. I'm of the mind we need more perks that focus on them, not less.)

    And I don't bring Small Game or Detective's Hunch because of NOED, and I bring one of those two perks pretty often. NOED is fairly rare at my ranks. I bring them because hex perks in general are very common and getting rid of Ruin/Devour is crucial. You're not wasting a perk slot on a potential killer perk, you're spending a perk slot on a type of killer perk and banking that one of them will be in play. It's the same reason you'd run Distortion or new OoO; you're not countering a specific killer perk, you're countering a field of them.

    But what if there's a trickier perk in play that you can't identify as easily, such as Discordance, Surveillance, Monitor & Abuse, Nurse's Calling or Barbeque & Chili?

    All of these I can reliably spot when a killer is using. No, the game doesn't outright tell you they're there, but there are signs. Does the killer always show up when two people are on a gen, but is less attentive when it's one person? Discordance. Do they show up when a gen's nearly completed? Tinkerer (though the lack of TR gives it away faster.) Do they show up as soon as you touch a regressing gen, but don't react when you start a new one? Surveillance. This handbook is essential when you're playing against a Freddy, because they're going to run some kind of gen monitoring perk and it's important to know whether piling on the gen or soloing them is the correct tactic. For the rest, in sequence... does their TR ramp up super quick, and they show up almost immediately after it starts? Do they catch you healing in very obscure hiding spots, or just always seem to catch you on heals? Do they always seem to know where to go after a hook and have high efficiency? (BBQ's really easy to spot if they go for you when you weren't on a gen/hex and were in the middle of a side objective, because there is no reason for them to head in your direction otherwise.)

    Usually, by the end of the match, you'll have had a chance to identify all of the killer's perks. Some perks genuinely are near-impossible to spot - like Play With Your Food, Spies From The Shadows, or Hangman's Trick, for examples. All of Wraith's are straight-up undetectable by survivors. But these perks are very rarely seen anyway. I can't think of a meta/semi-meta perk that can't be discerned in normal gameplay. Usually, if you can't tell all four perks the killer is using, there is an endgame perk in play, and even if there isn't, it is a safe assumption to be wary about a sudden NOED or Blood Warden. If it wasn't there, great; if it is, you're prepared.

  • swager21swager21 Member Posts: 1,019
  • zp3zp3 Member Posts: 7

    i like how complain about stuff but they never give ideas to help out they just say its to op and they just want it nerf they never give why its op or needs a nerf i dont think noed needs a nerf at all i think its fine the way it is but i did give an idea what they could do to it im just waiting on what people think on it along with another perk

  • Toblerone007Toblerone007 Member Posts: 598

    NOED isn't a good perk. You don't nerf bad perks. It's an unfun perk definitely. It should receive a rework.

    The advocators for the perk you will see them post the same argument each time. The convenient argument whether they use the perk themselves or primarily play killer. Go through the names above ^ you'll see it too.

    Now I read your situation and it happens. It's crappy to come to this game and see this perk dominate a team of new survivors. Understand, at the high ranks this perk never gets more than 1 sacrifice. That is almost always depip for killer. Hence the perk is rarely used there.

    Since everyone else is dropping 'do bones' like the TV show has come back into fashion. I'll say that a perk similarly complained about was old Hex: Ruin at the time. You had the same names saying you need to get better at skill checks, you need to adapt and it's not the killers problem blah blah blah. Survivor popularity was making a decline and BHVR reworked it. Naturally, this perk was so much more oppressive than NOED but it fits the same category. The killer has done nothing to have a huge amount of pressure.

    If noed gets reworked and I think it will, there are many good community suggestions that would make it much fairer to players that have performed well in chase (like yourself in that particular match) . Just don't call for a nerf, it isn't a perk that performs well in a 4v1 match of good players.

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