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Wraith is apparently the new Freddy



  • LaluziLaluzi Member Posts: 4,856

    How is his basekit bloated? Wraith has one of the simplest kits around. He's fast and hard to see while cloaked, he uncloaks slowly and reveals himself, and he lunges. That's it. That's his power. Freddy's kit was bloated because he had so many aspects to his power - dream world management and alarm clock slowdown, gen teleportation, loop slowdown or fake pallets. The nerf didn't change any of that, just made him less effective at some of those aspects.

  • BloodshadeBloodshade Member Posts: 3,201

    didn't say his basekit was bloated. i specifically mentioned throwing in add-ons. then throw in perks, whether it be regression or anti-pallet perks. suddenly you have a killer that is not only invisible at a distance & can move at lightning speeds, you have a killer that can chew threw pallets like butter or see your through walls or always be right on top of your gen w/ruin undying after smacking someone (windstorm add-ons).

    also @MadLordJack i think there's a problem when the main & basically only counterplay to a killer is to pre-drop pallets. especially when said strategy can be mitigated w/perks & add-ons. it's not terribly engaging gameplay.

    but what the hell do i know about engaging gameplay, i main nurse these days.

  • LaluziLaluzi Member Posts: 4,856

    To be honest, I think Nurse is one of the most engaging killers there is to play against. Unless she's running IF and hard slugging, she's got some of the most fun chases in the game. It's pure mindgames on both sides.

    Fair about me misreading, but personally I think high addon variety, and different playstyles enabled by different addons, is a good thing. Addon sets like Freddy's, Pyramid Head's, and Billy's, where addons don't really change anything about how you play and either tweak numbers or are unviable, are bad for a killer and just ensure everyone plays them the exact same way. Ones that unlock a bunch of different playstyle options like Wraith's, Hag's, and Clown's should be the norm. Do certain addons within those sets need to be looked at, probably, but I think addons should be 'bloated.' It's not like you can run all of them at once.

    I don't think perks come into play here, since that's the same pool for every killer. Wraith is good at knocking people off gens if he's running regression perks, but I don't think he's any better at it than, say, Blight. Tinkerer/Ruin/Undying is going to be problematic for survivors on any boosted mobility killer.

    Also, pallets aren't Wraith's only counterplay. He's extremely vulnerable to windows where the midpoint between both sides is longer than his lunge range, and unlike pallets, they're not exhaustible resources. You can waste a lot of his time at shack/LT walls/buildings if you play them right. If you're caught at a small loop and he starts uncloaking to lunge around one side, don't stick to the loop, just turn around and W away in the opposite direction.

    Overall, I think Wraith's lunge should probably be reduced somewhat (pig dash + being able to out-race survivors to pallets isn't good), but otherwise I think he's in a really good spot and I'd hate to see him cast back to obscurity. He really needed the map pressure speed boost with his terrible chasing power and bad stealth... he just somehow got better chasing power out of the deal too.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460
    edited June 2021

    I've already stated in another thread that I don't see that much "practical application" difference between having to fight against the new Wraith and Spirit. I have to use the same techniques against both. Spirit has a higher ceiling, but Wraith appears to be easier to learn for the Killer Player. So what you have is a high mobility Killer whose ability to down is merely a matter of time, and not that much of it. The main defense appears to be dropping the pallet early and hoping to have a LOT of them. :)

    I'm not a "the sky is falling" sort of person. Anyone who has read my posts will know I'm not particularly alarmist and will almost always defer to the notion that it takes a decent bit of time to really get a good feel on whether a particular release is good/balanced yet. I don't feel that way this time. Why? Because I'm watching people ten Ranks worse, relatively new Players decimate Red/Purple squads of Survivors. The chief issue is that Wraith is so EASY to play. At least with Spirit you have to learn to "listen" and get the basics of your trick down. Wraith doesn't have this hurdle. He is a point and shoot Killer; that's it.

    He only just got this buff and we are already seeing a shift. This means without any real time in grade or practice, Wraith is shooting to the front of the line in metrics. How is that going to look in a month or two when people have really gotten to practice with him? The issue for those fighting against the Wraith is that there isn't any more counter play to learn over time. Thus, the Wraith can continue to get better, while the Survivors hit the ceiling of what they can do to counter him. Do you see my point? Right now I'm going against the grain of a LOT of people, many of them time-honored veterans here. I hope I am wrong; I will be happy to be wrong. I just don't think I am in this case. The margin for error in balance with high mobility Killers is very small; I think they overshot the mark with Wraith.

  • YatolYatol Member Posts: 1,473
  • EntitySpawnEntitySpawn Member Posts: 3,712

    NO. I'm sorry but I have not seen an OP wraith, the biggest issue once again is bad survivors being at ranks they dont belong. So many times I'm lasting 5-10times longer than my team, that's not how it should be. Wraith is balanced, all he has is faster speed. That lunge always use to be a thing but you just notice it more as windstorm is base meaning every wraith has it not just the smarter ones using a good addon. Alot of killers need wraith treatment. Wait till mmr. Hes an M1 killer

  • BloodshadeBloodshade Member Posts: 3,201

    i'm gonna be honest, i don't have that strong of an opinion so i don't really know what to say.

    all i know is that wraith is extremely easy to play for relatively high reward after the buff.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,815

    If it's predropping less than half the pallets, I'm not so sure there's an issue. Otherwise we should be unironically nerfing Pig.

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,877

    Unironically nerfing Pig are sad words by themselves.

  • miketheratguymiketheratguy Member Posts: 2,719

    It's the free hit scenario that drives me up the wall.

    They can change a killer if they want. But if they're going to create a situation in which the one that's the fastest and least visible can see auras, immediately and almost imperceptibly hone in on his target, become visible to attempt his attack in complete silence, AND increase the chance of him landing his attack, that's about when I raise my hand and say "I think it's reasonable to say that we've entered 'cheap' territory at this point".

  • miketheratguymiketheratguy Member Posts: 2,719
    edited June 2021

    Very well-verbalized. Completely agree.

    I'm a relatively new player. When I went against the Wraith a month ago, it felt fair. Now it doesn't. When I caught the blur or heard the bell, I knew it was time to run and I hoped for the best. I was at least tipped off that "hey, he's close enough now that you better not make a mistake getting away". Now, I'm not even given the chance to make a mistake. If I notice the blur it's already too late and I'm taking the hit anyway.

    That's even IF I happen to catch the blur, since he can just uncloak silently from behind whatever nearby object may be obscuring my view or any of the directions I may not happen to be looking at during the 1.5 seconds that it takes for him to go from cloaked to swinging. I guess it's either that or I spend the first half of the match running around downing every pallet and then spend the remainder of the match spinning the camera in circles looking for the blur while simultaneously trying to focus on not screwing up generator skillchecks. There's no balance, no counterplay. Just complete guesswork.

    The most common complaint I see about Spirit is that she has little to no tell, that there's hardly any way to anticipate or counter her ability to suddenly appear right next to you and smack you. So hey, um..............

  • Moonman157Moonman157 Member Posts: 95

    He’s fine, I feel like it’s a bit of buffed Bubba syndrome, where people think he is overpowered but in reality they just haven’t adapted yet. My only problem with him is that I seem to have to play against him 39374772839x a night.

  • miketheratguymiketheratguy Member Posts: 2,719

    He's almost completely invisible, moves almost completely silently, can travel faster than anyone else in the game, is able to see the auras of his targets, can uncloak and enter his attack state without making a sound, and if he's within a few feet of his target when he uncloaks - which all of these abilities make highly likely - he can negate any ground that they gain by rushing forward immediately after uncloaking.

    What else is required to be considered overpowered?

  • glitchboiglitchboi Member Posts: 5,416
    edited June 2021

    Well actually, he can only see auras with that one add-on, and I think we can all agree that add-on is busted af. Same with silent bell, which requires an ultra rare add-on, however it is also busted. I think base-kit Wraith is balanced, but those add-ons need to be looked at.

    If he's eating your ass you gotta make sure you aren't in a dead zone.

    And erm... Billy, Blight, Spirit, and Oni all move way faster than Wraith, even with both of his top Windstorm add-ons.

    Here are all of their movement speeds from using their powers in their base-kit. Wraith's maximum speed is listed below.

    Wraith - 150%, 165% maximized with Windstorm add-ons

    Billy and Blight - 230%

    Spirit - 176%

    Oni - 195.5%

  • thrawn3054thrawn3054 Member Posts: 5,282

    It's not because Wraith is strong. It's because he feels cheap to people. I don't agree, but that's the issue. Same with Spirit and Freddy. It's because they feel cheap to face.

  • miketheratguymiketheratguy Member Posts: 2,719

    Billy and Blight - 230%

    Spirit - 176%

    Oni - 195.5%

    Unless I'm mistaken (I've never played as Spirt and only did Blight once for a ritual, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me) those speeds are achieved during special circumstances; limited power bursts. They can't freely and easily just roam all over the entire map the whole match at those speeds.

  • glitchboiglitchboi Member Posts: 5,416

    That's why they have abilities that allow them to down survivors easily, compared to Wraith who is countered by predropping pallets, not going in deadzones, and using good windows.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    There is a caveat though, a pretty big one and it bears directly on the "ease of use" problem with Wraith:

    Wraith - 150%, 165% maximized with Windstorm add-ons - CONSTANT with no downside due to speed boost of lunge on uncloak.

    Billy and Blight - 230% - TERRIBLE Turn ratios and/or must aim for terrain in the case of Blight to bounce. Easier to dodge.

    Spirit - 176% - SHORT, relatively, durations and cannot see (must listen and/or track) during period.

    Oni - 195.5% - SHORT, relatively, durations and less effective turn ratio.

    *I cut and pasted what you said and annotated differences above. The point being that the uncloak time is entirely offset by the improved lunge coming out of it. In fact, all the the Wraith has to do is come into literal body contact (often done as a body block against the Survivor) and it is nearly impossible to avoid the hit. There is a point at which the speed difference has ZERO practical difference. Let me put it this way, is there REALLY any difference for the Survivor between 150-165% and say the Spirit's 176% speed when BOTH allow the Killer to overtake a head start, pass the Survivor and make the hit? The only REAL difference is the size of the head start the Killer can overcome, and let's tell the truth and shame the devil here, the Wraith is never having to overcome much (if any) of a head start anymore. :)

    The only head start the Wraith ever faces is the range at which Spine Chill activates. If the Survivor (with that Perk) IMMEDIATELY starts to move toward some kind of defensive tile, they "might" make it. I use the word "might" because it takes optimal position and having the Wraith coming from the right direction. At 150% speed, the Wraith will cover that head start so quickly it isn't even funny. I'm not trying to be alarmist here. I've just done the math, played with the geometry, and started trying to figure out how I can (in a reliable way) overcome the new obstacle. That is the kind of Player I am. No matter how I crunch the numbers the only counter for a Solo is pure luck, i.e. enough unused Pallets and vaults to buy time and hope the Wraith breaks off. The only OTHER counter play requires "old school" Survivor teamwork.

    So let's get into the real nitty gritty here. Fighting the new Wraith requires the entire team of Survivors to constantly be protecting one another. That is the ONLY non-luck counter play against him. Protection hits, stealing chases, blinds/burns, and so on will work. It is possible, but unlikely. In short, the days when you could rely on a Solo Queue to provide you enough people who play this way are long gone. It means you need a SWF straddling the line between altruism and Generators with very little margin for error. Have I put this to the test already? You betcha! Against a well-coordinated Solo Queue of the highest quality, or a SWF willing to take protection hits, swap hooks, and all that Jazz you have real counter play other than drop that pallet early. So again I'm faced with a simple, unavoidable truth; the only counters to the new Wraith are exactly the same as those to the Spirit whom everyone complains about already.

    My conclusions, having tested in game, done the geometry and simple math, and spent many hours theorizing and testing non-conventional counters is that giving the base speed buff, the true invisibility beyond a certain range, and the superior lunge coming out of cloak was simply too much. At least when he didn't have "true" invisibility, a sharp-eyed alert person could get a slightly longer head start. Or when the lunge wasn't so damn effective, they could mind game or counter play at the loops. The truth is I have better results fighting a Spirit than I do a Wraith. I know that is going to rub people the wrong way, but I'm forced to use the SAME limited tactics and counter play and the Wraith is simply less affected by them. I have faith the metrics are going to very quickly tell the story and this is situation that is only going to become more and more clear as the months go on. For now, your best way to fight a Wraith is not to get made in the first place. You have to go PURE stealth and hope he doesn't have the add-on when he swings past.

  • SteahSteah Member Posts: 511

    I actually can't believe we are at the point where we are complaining about wraith.

  • BloodshadeBloodshade Member Posts: 3,201
  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    I agree; I certainly never expected to be at this point. :) And I wouldn't say I'm complaining. I'm not much of a naysayer by nature. I'm more proactive, and prefer to try to work through my problems myself. That is what I've been doing, but not too that much effect. I'm hoping for others to provide me with some additional counter play that I've overlooked or they have discovered that I have not. That is why I'm so thorough when I post, so people know what I've already tried and done.

    I am quite hopeful that I've missed something because I'm well-aware that THIS Wraith is here to stay awhile. Changes don't happen that fast. It is adapt or die. So I'm not so much complaining as adding to the discussion and hoping to learn something new I can use. If I find something that works, I'm going to post about it right away. I'm kind of hopeful, although I haven't gotten ANY Wraiths in the PtB yet to test it, that Flash Bang and Blast Mine will light burn a Wraith. Me and mine are trying to test more and more group builds using flashlights to try and knock him out and slow him down without getting hit in the process.

  • Hex_IgnoredHex_Ignored Member Posts: 1,085

    Just make all seeing purple swap rarities with all seeing pink and then you will see it a lot less. Wraith's base power is fine and in my opinion iridescent add ons should be really powerful and not garbage like Pyramid head's

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 3,676

    Yeah so do killers feel about facing god pallets that have 0 mindgames or risk to them. Yet devs won't suddently remove all god pallets just because they feel unfair to play against.

  • Toblerone007Toblerone007 Member Posts: 598

    You're going to get hit predropping unsafe pallets against current Wraith. The issue is exactly that. He can respect every unsafe pallet and 100% success rate get a hit on it regardless of input from the survivor because of the buff. The complaints are from a loss of interaction between survivor-killer here.

    Does it make Wraith overpowered? No.

    Are survivors deeming it as unfun? Yes.

  • MegMain98MegMain98 Member Posts: 2,824

    I’ve never like Wraith because he doesn’t chase survivors normally, he’s hit and run. It’s the same process “cloak, uncloak, free hit, cloak, uncloak, free hit.” He gets free hits due to his super sonic speed, 100 meter lunge, and the fact that he has better invisibility.

    He’s is very average. Not amazing. But his gameplay is so monotonous and stale because it’s all the same. Hit and run killers are so damn boring because there are rarely any true chases involved.

  • gibblywibblywoogibblywibblywoo Member Posts: 3,773

    I think new Wraith is only quite strong with add ons. At the end of the day, base kit Wraith is just old Wraith with a widdle speed boosty.

  • miketheratguymiketheratguy Member Posts: 2,719

    That's because many people appear to have already made up their mind about what the character is, and / or should be, and don't seem to want to appraise his new buffs objectively.

  • solidhexsolidhex Member Posts: 799

    I main Wraith and i don't think that's true. Most of the time it's a 50/50 situation and not a save hit. And even the 50/50 situation counts only for very unsafe loops. If you can see him or the wall is a bit longer it's not easy to hit survivors.

    He is much more fun to play right now, he is stronger as i said in various other threads but i'm sure he is not OP or something. Everyone has different tastes and it's ok not to like to go against him. But many people just don't want to adapt as you have to be very aware against him. Once he is starting to chase you normally, he is the weakest killer in the game.

  • Toblerone007Toblerone007 Member Posts: 598

    Want to scrim? I'll play Wraith for unbiased data at unsafe structures and upload here?

    I'm not saying he's not fun to play. This only decreases the playing against aspect. Since his buff of 0.25s extra sprint out of cloak he gains an extra 1.5 metres of distance. There is no cooldown to this. I can assure you this is more than enough distance to guarantee hits regardless of survivor input on unsafe pallets. This is not a comment on Wraith's balance 1v4 but rather a loss of micro interaction relationship between Wraith and survivor.

    Safe pallet gameplay is exactly the same but that's not what I stated before you chimed that in.

    Please understand I'm not calling Wraith overpowered! This is simply about how fun it is to play unsafe structures against current Wraith (1.5 metres extra is without addons too).

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 12,963

    Whats bad about hit&run killers?

    Why do people always complain about killers that don´t run in circles?

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