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The real question is: do we really want a perfect MMR?

Assuming that the MMR works perfectly, wouldn't this hurt the experience of casual players by a lot? Because both sides would have to sweat their pants off to win, which works in other games like league and rainbow six, but in both of these games there are other modes besides ranked. So I wonder, if the MMR is perfect, will it actually hurt the community?

The devs specifically said that they don't like the idea of having 2 different modes in dbd, ranked and casual, so I won't include them here. But, admittedly, the randomized matchmaking is kinda fun, even tho unfair at times. Sometimes you sweat your ass off, sometimes you get destroyed, sometimes its an easy win.

So what do you think?

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Comments

  • TheClownIsKingTheClownIsKing Member Posts: 6,278

    Agreed.

  • Hex_LlamaHex_Llama Member Posts: 1,440

    I think it's a good question. I've played other games that had ranked and casual modes, and the ranked mode was usually not for me.

    However, I also really dislike the current DBD system where you either stomp or get stomped. The most fun matches are the ones where it feels to me like we're evenly skilled -- though maybe my feeling is wrong, and actually the matches I enjoy the most are with people who are just a hair below me on the skill ladder, so I have to work for it, but I still win.

    After what the matchmaking has been like so far, though, I'm ready to try MMR.

  • DragonMasterDarrenDragonMasterDarren Member Posts: 2,108

    I would like MMR to work since I think having fun matches where everyone actually tries to win while not really taking the game super seriously is good for the game, however

    1. MMR kills off the streamers since they will be at high MMR essentially permanently and have to deal with sweaty game after sweaty game
    2. we won’t know how high our MMR is
    3. and the biggest one, all of the times MMR was active it has been completely broken


    i don’t want a MMR system in place if it just makes the occasional problems with the current matchmaking system the norm and bumped up to 11

  • Marc_go_soloMarc_go_solo Member Posts: 2,672

    Well if the MMR works perfectly, I'd make the assumption that casual players would be put against casual players, and the competitive people will take on the same ilk. There may be some brief cross-overs, but the system would shortly correct this. So, working optimally, it would be better than currently for me.

    The trouble would be perception. If someone has a few bad games, they will complain about the MMR not being right, regardless of whether it's perfect or not. Whilst the system would take data from everywhere, the individual always sees it through their perspective. Not many like to admit they're not as good as they think they are.

    For me, it wouldn't matter whether it was perfect or not, purely because the individual would use their own experience to judge how good it is, so for some of them it may never be perfect. If that's the case, would a perfect system ever be perfect for everyone?

  • gendossgendoss Member Posts: 2,235
    edited June 2021

    I agree with some of that, like how there would only be 1 competitive mode and no casual mode (which they should add) but the previous ranking system was made with the intention of what MMR is doing, to match players of relative skill and it failed because the bloodpoint system is not a good system to track skill. There's always only been ranked in dbd since the beginning so I don't think just because MMR is better that means the game will be inherently different, it will just have more fair matches, which is always a good thing.

    Just in general I don't like the sentiment of "this game having more fair matchmaking is a bad thing" because it's what people have been wanting since the beginning.

  • DecisiveDwightDecisiveDwight Member Posts: 593
    edited June 2021

    I agree I shouldn't have to sweat to win every match sometimes I should get crushed and other times I should win there is no true balance to match making anyway MMR has proven this and the healthiest thing for the game is to leave this kind of play up so you get a good mix of both worlds.

  • fogdonkeyfogdonkey Member Posts: 1,425

    So you say you sometimes want matches when it is an easy win and sometimes matches where you have no chance no matter what you do?

  • mad_hattermad_hatter Member Posts: 121

    I don't think MMR is supposed work like that. If you want to play sweaty and, because of this, you win a lot, you should very quickly get matched only with other sweaty players. Conversely, if you want to chill, you might lose to the sweat lords, but then you should start to only match with other chill players.

    And then, in a game like this, the two modes wouldn't actually play any differently. You'd just be choosing whether you want fair matchmaking (so ranked, with MMR) or un-fair matchmaking (casual, no MMR). Surely everybody would prefer fair matchmaking?

  • ShinobuSKShinobuSK Member Posts: 4,065

    So far every game with SBMM made it a sweatfest for me. You don't even notice if you getting really better or not since the better you are the better people you are matched with anyway so it feels the same.

    I am talking about FPS games so not really sure if its the same for something like DBD which is...you know

  • glitchboiglitchboi Member Posts: 5,410

    I don't want to treat DBD as a competitive game. I want to treat it as a party game, a game where I can relax while playing. It's not like I'm playing Overwatch or League or something.

    However I'm fine if it ends up that way, I guess.

  • xeravxerav Member Posts: 392
    edited June 2021

    The Game is not balanced for 4 random bad survivor with no perks or 4 good survivor in a swf group with the best perks... its not a problem you can solve by adding more perks (which new players wont have access too) or a mmr system.

    MMR works in games like league cuz champions and stuff is mostly balanced (unlike DBD).

  • InsaneCoasterInsaneCoaster Member Posts: 300

    It's true. If I want to sweat, I can play on crossplay off against comp players and sweat there. Obviously I like challenging games, but I play DBD mostly to have fun with friends. A perfect MMR system would kill the game for all players.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    I say that it I have to chose between this and sweating my pants out 24/7, I prefer this.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    Because both sides would have to sweat their pants off to win

    No, that's not how the MMR would work. In practice, a perfect MMR would place you against people who play like you do. If you play without regard for whether you win or lose, making a lot of mistakes because you're not really thinking about the most optimal plays, and so on, you'd be matched against people who do the same. If you play to win every single time, you'd be placed against people who do the same.

    So yes, I do want a perfect MMR.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    If sometimes I play perfectly and sweat and sometimes I chill and really don't care about the outcome of a match? Wouldn't that break the balance of the MMR?

    Think of it this way: as a survivor I can tryhard and pull off long chases. But other times I wanna play hook sabo claud and come out of a bush to ruin a killer's day. Sometimes I wanna play Pokemon alongside playing dbd because I really don't care about the outcome. A player doesn't only tryhard or playing chill, a player will play according to their mood.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675
    edited June 2021

    Then you would lose while "playing chill" after "sweating" for a prolonged period of time. My guess, however, is that you wouldn't "play chill" for very long if you were constantly losing. Not many people say they don't care about winning and mean it. When push comes to shove, they'll likely try as hard as they can to win.

  • InsaneCoasterInsaneCoaster Member Posts: 300

    That's not the point though. People don't have some kind of singular way of playing. Sometimes I want to play at the high level against high level players, other times I just want to mess around with friends and have fun in SWF without a care in the world if I escape. Despite the flaws of old matchmaking, to it's credit, it did often allow people to do this. There was at least variety in matches. For me at least, a perfect MMR system (not that it would even be possible) would be incredibly boring.

  • AvignonAvignon Member Posts: 133

    I think it depends what the devs define "good" MM as. MM around the current emblem system is a .... baaaaaaad idea considering 2k most of the time will result in a black pip at red ranks and survivors can actually DERANK vs an afk killer, if all you do is 5 gens and escape, you're loosing pips as survivor wich is kinda ass backwards on both fronts.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    other times I just want to mess around with friends and have fun in SWF without a care in the world if I escape. Despite the flaws of old matchmaking, to it's credit, it did often allow people to do this.

    You can still do that. If you truly don't care about escaping, then you won't care when you die.

    There was at least variety in matches. For me at least, a perfect MMR system (not that it would even be possible) would be incredibly boring.

    I'll take trials that are always at my skill level instead of trials that are either against people who are stupidly more (or less) skilled than I am. I don't like clubbing baby seals any more than I like being mauled by bears.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 12,826

    I think you'll get burnt out a ton faster.

    The streaming community is also going to take a massive hit.

    Personally, I think it's going to highlight balance issues at high MMR which will take at least 8 months for any changes to be implemented.

    Also, I don't like that we have no visual indication of MMR, it'd make me a lot more likely to grind if I could see how good I am compared to others.

  • fogdonkeyfogdonkey Member Posts: 1,425

    And you can still do that, you will just not escape probably, your rank will go down a bit and that's it.

    How should the game know that you are playing Pokemon at the same time and therefore you should be matched up with potatoes?

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210
    edited June 2021

    I agree, that I would lose if I played chill, but here's a counterargument:

    I've reached red ranks with high MMR and instead of playing sweaty ghostface that I've been playing, I wanna play a game with perks that only give info without slowdown. I won't win that game. The game will be balanced around the top 5 builds for every killer, which admittedly is already happening, but at least now I have a chance that the rng gods will give me awful survivors, or survivors that just wanna have fun.

    Also if I play in the top 1% (I'm not even close to the top 1% but let's assume that I am) then I'll probably get matched with nurse or spirit. No killer in their right minds will play any other killer and expect to win in the top 1%. So since more than half of the roaster and perks are not intended for higher levels of play, wouldn't that make all of em completely useless and unplayable?

    The counterargument to that I assume will be "then just don't reach the top 1%". Well if me and my friends decided to sweat for a week to prepare for a tournament, then I'm already at the top 1%. So if I wanna have fun again I'd have to lose about 30 games in a row to get to a medium MMR and have fun, which isn't great is it? Because most people don't like losing, even for a higher purpose.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    I think you'll get burnt out a ton faster.

    I was burned out because it was always either "get crushed by a killer", or "crush a killer", with nothing inbetween.

    I think I'll do just fine if trials are actually more varied and actually allow for more diversity in gameplay.

    The streaming community is also going to take a massive hit.

    They can play more (or less) relaxed if they so choose. That's not really a problem for the devs, as far as I'm concerned.

    Personally, I think it's going to highlight balance issues at high MMR which will take at least 8 months for any changes to be implemented.

    I'll take it.

    You know what's worse than waiting 8 months for changes to be implemented? Not having the issues highlighted and fixed in the first place.

    Also, I don't like that we have no visual indication of MMR, it'd make me a lot more likely to grind if I could see how good I am compared to others.

    As you know, people would exploit that to try to cheat the system.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    Because most people don't like losing, even for a higher purpose.

    And there we have the crux of the issue: you say you don't care about losing, but you actually do, which is why you don't want the MMR. You want the freedom to choose between clubbing baby seals (when you don't feel like trying as hard to win as before) or going up against people of your own skill level. That's not going to happen, and I'm honestly glad it's going away.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    You're correct! There is no way for the game to know if I play Pokemon or not. But, just like in the previous example I gave to Orion, if I tryhard in a swf cuz we're preparing for a tournament, I'll probably end up in the top 1%, assuming we've been doing this for a week. After the tournament is over and after I return on playing casually, I'd have to lose more or less 30 games to get a medium MMR, not accounting the other players on my team who wanted to win and lost because I chose to play casually.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    I have another question: why should the game match you with potatoes just because you're playing Pokémon? At any point, you can put down the game and crush them all, which is definitely not fun for them.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 12,826
    edited June 2021

    1.)

    If MMR works as intended, you should be trying your hardest every game, since the players around you are of equal skill. For me, I'd have to run meta on every Killer if I wanted to have a chance to win at my current MMR. That just doesn't sound appealing to me, and many other players have expressed the same sentiments.

    But, if you enjoy that, I have no room to judge.

    2.)

    Publicity is an issue. A game without a large content creating community is a dead game. Think about what streamers like Otz, Hexy, Cope ect do for the game. I give them 6 months before they are as burnt out as Tru3 clearly is.

    3.)

    The issues are already known. Anyone with a reasonable understanding of the game knows that it is not balanced and certainly not fun at high Ranks. The issues have been pointed out but nothing has been done. I see no reason why BHVR would immediately start on a fix.

    As another example of that, the Optimization of this game is pretty abysmal. The game can be borderline unplayable for Console's and has been for years. BHVR said they would do something about it, but that was 2 years ago. Since then, it's only gotten worse.

    BHVR does not address fundamental issues. They only bandaid them.

    4.)

    Not having a visual indication only makes it slightly harder for people to abuse it. If you throw 20 matches and only hit 3 people, your MMR will plummet. I don't think anyone needs a visual indicator to know that and to abuse it.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    Thats a good argument xD

    I love how all of you take the pokemon example seriously, even tho, to be fair, I've done that before

    Long story short, a swf didn't wanna play the game cuz they were 3 of em and I had a 3gen as blight, so I completed the whole elite 4 whilst they were busy hiding in the basement.

    I got a 30k bp game with bbq fully stacked a survivor pudding and a bps, so it was worth it in the end xD

  • NozNoz Member Posts: 174

    This must be the only multiplayer game where people want to do nothing but troll around and win at the same time, without having to actually try and that being somehow an acceptable position.

    You either can have: A game where everyone tries to actually win OR a games where some people try to actually win and others just goofing around.

    The effect of the later ( which is what dbd currently is ) is people complaining about: SWF, Tunneling, Camping, Dead Hard and so on.

    Because for some reason people are not expected to try their hardest, if someone does not play on the same level of try-harding as they are, they are either: trolls or sweatlords.

    You can get rid of this problem by accepting that people always try to play at that best, like most online games.


    "But DbD is different!!!" No it is not, just because this is currently the culture around this game, doesn't mean it has to stay this way.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    "Losing" for me is mostly having little to no blood points since I need them to p3 my hag, and also cuz I need to get all perks to all characters. So, when I say that I'll lose 30 matches, I mean that I will intentionally don't get that much bloodpoints so I won't pip, which will be a waste of time and resources. That's also the main reason that I don't like nurse, I love her, but I'm extremely bad at her. Even if I 4k, I'll lose a ton more bloodpoints than if I played pig or Hag. I know that my way of "losing" and "wining" is kinda bland and lame but I basically describe it as:

    Stonks!

    (I wanted to add a gif here but it didn't work :( rip)

    For me a perfect game is getting as many bps as possible. If I get that my bloodpoint stonks go up and I can invest on p3ing hag faster, that is my end goal. If I intentionally lose bloodpoints so I can have more chill games, the stonks will go down, which will slow down my goal.

    But I admit that I might be the only one that thinks that way xD

    Assuming that win is a 4k or escape, then yes, this would annoy and hurt the casual community, probably. I can't say with certainty :/

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