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The real question is: do we really want a perfect MMR?

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  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    If MMR works as intended, you should be trying your hardest every game, since the players around you are of equal skill. For me, I'd have to run meta on every Killer if I wanted to have a chance to win at my current MMR. That just doesn't sound appealing to me, and many other players have expressed the same sentiments.

    But, if you enjoy that, I have no room to judge.

    You should only be trying your hardest to win if you actually want to rank up, though. I play casually and went up with/against others who played casually, for the most part. Win or lose, I am always relaxed. Except in that one Nurse game because survivors don't know how to loop her and never touched a single generator. That one was annoying.

    Publicity is an issue. A game without a large content creating community is a dead game. Think about what streamers like Otz, Hexy, Cope ect do for the game. I give them 6 months before they are as burnt out as Tru3 clearly is.

    Can we not overstate the importance of "content creators"? Games were sold long before Twitch and YouTube were a thing and they continue to be sold now, even without them.

    The issues are already known. Anyone with a reasonable understanding of the game knows that it is not balanced and certainly not fun at high Ranks. The issues have been pointed out but nothing has been done. I see no reason why BHVR would immediately start on a fix.

    I literally agreed with your 8 months timeline. That's not "immediately". I'm beginning to think you're not reading what I'm writing.

    Not having a visual indication only makes it slightly harder for people to abuse it. If you throw 20 matches and only hit 3 people, your MMR will plummet. I don't think anyone needs a visual indicator to know that and to abuse it.

    However, as OP already so helpfully demonstrated, people who like to "sweat" do care if they win or lose, so they'd never do that on purpose. They'd try to find a way to game the system so they can still crush the other player(s), but without actually ranking up.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    I didn't take it seriously, I was working within your analogy. My point is that at any moment, you can stop playing casually and the other players have no way to deal with that. Since you already demonstrated you don't like to lose, I think this is how you would behave in 99% of cases.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    I'll admit that I picture dbd mostly like a party game rather than a tournament game, since half the roaster of both killers and perks aren't designed for the highest level of play.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    "Losing" for me is mostly having little to no blood points since I need them to p3 my hag, and also cuz I need to get all perks to all characters. So, when I say that I'll lose 30 matches, I mean that I will intentionally don't get that much bloodpoints so I won't pip, which will be a waste of time and resources. That's also the main reason that I don't like nurse, I love her, but I'm extremely bad at her. Even if I 4k, I'll lose a ton more bloodpoints than if I played pig or Hag. I know that my way of "losing" and "wining" is kinda bland and lame but I basically describe it as:

    Your definition of winning/losing is not in question here, nor is it even relevant. As @Noz put it, you want to win even if you're not actually trying to, by going up against people who are below your skill level.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    To be clear about this, the gaming industry did achieve everything because of both content creators and ads. Minecraft wouldn't be even close to popular if twitch wasn't a thing, would it? I could be wrong but I remember that the game became popular due to content creators.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 12,483
    edited June 2021

    1.)

    Sure, if you play casual then MMR should be fine for you. But new players and players who try are going to have a miserable experience and I do not think that can be dismissed.

    2.)

    Multiplayer games have a very difficult time surviving in this day and age without content creators supporting them. Siege, OW, CoD, Battlefield, Halo, GTA ect ect all have communities that promote the game and show how fun it can be. If they all left, the games would decline dramatically. Because, like it or not, that's the world we live in.

    3.)

    I did read what you wrote. I'm merely clarifying that I do not believe they'll do anything at all, but if they do it won't be soon enough to prevent people from leaving.

    4.)

    I don't think you could do that based off of Rank alone. Just put in something like OW's SR system. It's just a visual indication of the weight bracket you are in. That's the same info you have right now.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675

    I have stuff to do today, so I'll just leave with this:

    If MMR works the way it's supposed to, you'll basically go up against people who play as hard (or casually) as you. If you only go up against people who are trying their hardest to win, then it's because you are also trying your hardest to win in most (if not all) of your trials. It's that simple. And I couldn't be happier with that.

  • solidhexsolidhex Member Posts: 691

    Why is MMR considered bad for streamers? I would rather watch them playing against survivors who are actually worth going against them than seeing them destroying random solo teams at 4 gens every game...

  • SeraphorSeraphor Member Posts: 3,000

    As a killer, the current matchmaking system is an absolute shitshow. I'm in purple ranks, because it's far too easy to rank up, constantly being paired with sweaty red rank survivors. When I lose, I still black pip, so I can't get back down to where I should be.

    The last MMR test and this one so far have both been a massive improvement, putting me against survivors of my skill level, and the games have never felt more fair. It's been less sweaty, less frustrating, and more fulfilling all-round.

    So if this is what a 'perfect MMR system' looks like, yes please, anything would be an improvement over the current rank based matchmaking that is putting me off playing killer, and likely many others. Making killer a more enjoyable experience will get more people playing killer, and reduce queue times.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    I think that the two opposing sides here are the people who are afraid that the game will turn extra competitive, which I believe it will, and will lose the feeling of "I intended to tryhard this game, but I'm having too much fun right now" and the people which believe that the MMR will actually not destroy this way of playing dbd, but it will actually include people who both wanna tryhard and people who wanna ######### around.

    In this case I concede that I actually don't know on how it's going to work, and my concerns could just be something I shouldn't really worry about cuz it will work, or I could be rightfully concerned about the future of the game, because admittedly, I don't want another league of legends.

    So, I think that we should give it a shot, if it works then great, if it doesn't then the devs can go back to the drawing board.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 12,483

    Because streamers generally need to win most of their games. Nobody really wants to watch if all they do is lose.

    However, this basically means they are cursed to go up against extremely good players and other streamers constantly.

    It means players on the caliber of Otz are constantly going up against each other, over and over again.

    If you've ever played against a really good SWF or a really good Nurse or Spirit, you know how awful that can be.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    Imagine going into a survivor stream where they only face nurses and spirits, I would really not enjoy myself in that scenario.

    Or a stream where they're forced to play killers with the safe perk loadout because if they change it they will lose. So it both destroys diversity and creativity

  • TragicSolitudeTragicSolitude Member Posts: 5,455
    edited June 2021

    I mean... the MMR can never work "perfectly" due to the limitations of the playerbase it pulls from. It will put together matches that are unbalanced in order to make sure that people get to play rather than wait forever in a queue. The difference will be where it originally starts looking for players and the method it uses to widen the search.

    Also, when those unbalanced matches do happen, the system will recognize that it was unbalanced and adjust the MMR accordingly. Right now, ranking up is rigidly standardized; with MMR, context will matter. For example, the system isn't going to see a highly experienced player winning against total newbies as a big accomplishment.

    (I'm going by what the devs have said in the past. There's always a chance they've since changed course.)

  • TicTacTicTac Member Posts: 2,168

    1) You only need to try your hardest every game if you want to win. So just dont try to win and you should get a lower mmr. But in most games its hard to lower your mmr bc they want to avoid people who abuse it. So with some mmr-systems you get stuck in a high mmr. And with that people will use smurfs.

    Sweating without seeing your rank seems meaningless for me, too. But right now its unfair if i play against people where everything other than a 4k would be a embarrasment for me. Sometimes i want to relax and still get a win. I mean i used time to get good in the game so why shouldnt i have it easier then others? But i know thats selfish.

    2) 50win-streaks will certainly vanish. But i see people in other games who do great. If you are one of the best you will still win and a lose can be entertaining, too. The problem with dbd is that its not balanced.

    3) They need to balance it. MMR will just highlight the problems. I prefer 6 month of hell where i know its coming instead of another 3 years of ... i will still win bc the survivor have no brain but its meaningless bc it has nothing to do with my skill only with survivor mistakes...

    4) they need to show a visual indicator. You are right if they want to stop abuser they need to do different things. Make a downrank limit in the span of a month. Show the mmr and dont make matchmaking time too long. I wonder if low mmr players would be satisfied with a match against a high mmr player if they would lose but still get a better mmr when they exceed the expectations of the mmr-system.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    So just to be clear, you define a casual game where you can win without working? Wouldn't that mean it is sweaty for the other guy? :)

  • fogdonkeyfogdonkey Member Posts: 1,330

    I see, so basically you would like to have two ranks, e.g. hard and casual, and you would always choose one of these before you queue up. You select it based on how you plan to play during the game. So basically almost like having two separate accounts, but it would apply only to the rank.

    (In theory you could play sweaty on the casual setting as well, but then you would cheat only yourself, because your ranking would go up on the casual setting as well.)

    That could be a cool feature.

  • OldHunterLightOldHunterLight Member Posts: 2,975

    I really don't like this MMR, I hate it in fact, I hate playing sweaty, I actually had to use pop with Billy which goes against how I play Billy, I had to use ruin with Oni because I have been trying to go for the #1 fastest 4k with Oni (top 10 as of now), when I changed to survivor today, first match was horrible, rank 20 killer, second one was also a rank 20 trickster with 30 hours in the game, 3rd match was a slug fest with a camping huntress, 3 out of 4 of us almost got bled out multiple times while the killer had pop, corrupt and ruin as her 3 main perks.

    I hope this doesn't continue like that, I also want chill games for both sides, not a mandatory "use x perks to have a better chance" that isn't fun, I hate exhaustion perks as example, so I have to use one to do better? Do I have to use ruin and pop every game with nurse?

    Every player will only start using what is strong because no one wants to lose, we will have the same repetitive stuff every match and it might become unfun.

    This is just what I have in my mind and the day that I had with this MMR.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    Indeed it would be, but the devs said they don't want two different modes. So the mmr will basically ######### me in that situation xD

    So the only way to remain in my rank would be to buy a secondary account to sweat. Which, not many people have the luxury to pay for a game twice, I assume this is the case for controller players

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    I would defy a casual game as a game where you can equip anything as your load out and you would have a chance of winning.

    Imagine league for a minute, if you don't know anything about league, I'll try to explain it. Imagine playing yuumi ad. Yuumi is a character where you literally rely on other players, since you can attach to them and make them harder to kill. If you play ad yuumi on a lane where you have no teammates (let's say the top lane) you will probably lose. You don't play yuumi ad on a ranked mode, you play her in a casual mode. Even if you play her like that in a ranked mode, there is a small chance you win, but usually you play your main. In dbd every game is a ranked game, which punishes diversity and creativity. And since we can't have a casual mode, more than half of everything we have available will be unusable for some players.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    You can already do this; it is called a Custom Game. It can be as casual as you want and have all the restrictions and friendliness that you and your friends choose to setup. Don't kid a kidder.

  • monkamonka Member Posts: 66

    Many streamers give up on MMR.

    I went to another game.


    SWF needs balance.

  • WazzupWazzup Member Posts: 88

    MMR is a probability based system so even if it worked "perfectly" you would still have some spread of easier. average and harder games. You just shouldn't get one sided massacres. So I suspect that this won't be a serious problem in actuality.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    Let me be even MORE direct. In a Custom Game, everything is unlocked for you to use. You don't need to grind for points to get your stuff. What could be more casual than that? There is no stress, no Rank to worry about, no Pips, etc. You are just playing casually. And you can easily get enough players at the DROP OF A HAT at any time of the day if you have no friends. Casual play is at your fingertips now and will be after MMF exists. Use it.

    If you want to play against people, earn things, and get Rank that is the DEFINITION of competitive play.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,815

    Yes, because I want all of you to suffer like I've suffered, because then the Devs will also suffer and this ######### game will actually change so "high MMR" play isn't the worst thing ever.

  • burt0rburt0r Member Posts: 2,455

    Welcome to most games with a working mmr. League of Legends pros (challenger and above) only play each other or use alt account and still can stream.

    People in the dbd community just became way too used to see their (and here I take the league of legends ranks for analogy again) master-grandmaster level favourite streamer playing against everything from silver up to grandmaster (because red ranks only equal the level of low gold itself, being more of sign of time investment rather than skill and building a finit limit to the rank climb way too early). Of course this will lead to those famous 50/100 games win streaks with the occasional close call being evenly matched.

    Also to your first point here. That's already the case in any online pvp game on the market that don't have a botgame mode or newby protection queues (which also get destroyed by smurfs) like for example rainbow six siege.

  • RenAmamiyaRenAmamiya Member Posts: 849

    I actually like trying to win my games, so yes.

  • AneurysmAneurysm Member Posts: 4,481

    I couldn't play myself yesterday but I watched some of Jund's stream and for the most part it was more interesting than usual watching him have to work for kills.

  • cherryblossomcherryblossom Member Posts: 34

    MMR is such a mess for me. I'm still in brown ranks, haven't played a lot and need to get better, but in the 32 matches I've played since the MMR testing is live I only got matched with red rank killers and team mates. I know that ranks don't matter here, but you can't tell me that I have the same skill level like those killers, who end my matches after 3 minutes all the time :( I know git gud, but how is this possible?

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