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Nemesis is a D tier, bottom 5 killer.

SteahSteah Member Posts: 511

Serious question, who is Nemesis better than. The only ones that come to mind for me are Trapper, Legion, Pig, and Trickster.

The zombies are just wayyy too inconsistent for anti looping purposes. What zombies really do is provide some info. It's like pig traps, they sometimes kill but they are more for game delay. Zombies sometimes shut down loops (2 times in 53 games for me so far) but more often they are free info and thats it. If Nemesis isn't around they are a mild annoyance at best.

So that really just leaves you with his tentacle strike which you need to power up, has limited range until you hit tier 3 (only an extra meter :) ) and you need to a healthy survivor 3 times through 2 speed boosts to down them. They can also get rid of the T-virus just incase you thought you could spend your early game infecting everyone and then having a stronger attack than a m1 as your reward. I don't think it's a stronger m1 because majority of the time my chase is way faster if i m1 someone 2 times than if i tentacle strike them 3 times.

That being said the upsides are he can hit over pallet, can break them easily as well as walls (once he gets to tier two which is like 3 hits without add ons).

The problem is survivors literally need to hold w. If you run in a straight line, don't loop, just straight. You buy an unbelievable amount of time vs him while using zero resources. He only starts to shut down loops once he has already infected you. He can't break the pallet until tier 2, and if you aren't infected he has nothing he can do to you besides be a m1 killer at 115. He also kinda plays like huntress at loops where it becomes a mind game of readying your power if you think they will drop or just keep going if you think they won't.

I don't think he is better than Clown or Myres and i'll explain.

Clown can't hit over pallets like Nemesis can sure, but he is way better at shutting down loops. He doesn't give double speed boosts to survivors when he hits them. And has some potential to have map pressure with yellow bottles. If clown catches you in the open he is going to down you way faster than Nemesis. Clown doesn't need set up to make his anti loop really strong, and it is wayyy easier to hit a bottle than a tentacle. Nemesis has the zombie info over him and the potential for a stronger anti loop if he lucks into a zombie being in the right place at the right time. But that's it.

Meyer's on the other hand has a wayyy bigger payoff for tiering up. Exposed on everyone for a minutes, faster vaults, and a longer lunge is wayyy more of a benefit to hitting tier 3 than 1 extra meter. Now yes, tier 3 runs out which Nemesis doesn't and there are only a set amount of tier 3's you can proc in a match. i don't think those cons outweigh the pros. Myers can instantly snowball and win a game. Nemesis can't do that. Nemesis needs to hit people and let them speed boost away to rank up. Myres just needs to stalk, you don't speed boost the survivors away while looking at them and if you get creative you get a lot of stalk before people even notice you because you are undetectable at tier 1. Nemesis has his loud distinct terror radius, and even if you don't hear that the zombies are a dead give away. Sure Nemesis can play around loops better, but Myere's isn't a slouch with longer lunges and faster vaults.

I originally thought Nemesis was going to be mid b, right around where Doc and LF are. After playing him a little bit i felt C, around Ghost Face, was more appropriate. Now after putting in a lot of games i think he is a bottom 5 killer in the game.

If i am missing something about his power or some trick i don't know please tell me or if you think he is way stronger than he is let me know because i don't see how anyone can rate him as even mediocre let alone low A tier. I think he beats out Pig, Legion, Trapper, and Trickster making him 5th worse. Maybe there is some incredible tech that will be discovered that will make him a lot stronger, but as of now i'm not seeing it.

Otz posted a good example on his community tab on youtube about the lenght of time it takes to down someone when you go for a double m1 as opposed to a triple m2.

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Comments

  • NamelessNameless Member Posts: 778

    Imo his zombies are fine. A couple of times the AI decides to wander off into zones where they're really useless so maybe that's something that could be improved. His power though isn't that bad. The common complaint is the sprint burst you get when Nemesis hits you with his power, and I agree it's not really necessary. His tier 3 needs something extra too I think because 1 extra meter with your whip is really nothing.

  • ChurchofPigChurchofPig Member Posts: 2,340

    I've personally had a lot of problems with the game just deciding to cancel the power even though I was still pressing the button. Although both need to be fixed.

  • SteahSteah Member Posts: 511

    This is what i mean! everyone is talking about he is low A, high B, super balanced.

    Yet no one has answered my question on who he is better than other than the 4 i mentioned.

  • RenAmamiyaRenAmamiya Member Posts: 849

    If they don't do something about this unnecessary 3rd hit then yeah, I agree. I don't get why add so many unnecessary downsides to this guy. If he was just a killer with a 6m ranged attack and two zombies he'd be decent, the whole contamination and vaccines are what throw him into C/D tier.

  • nickoffordnickofford Member Posts: 105

    You should never be infecting a survivor out in the open , always do it at pallet loop with the survivor on the outer trqck of the loop , even with the speed boost they become in range of your next ten-tickle strike very quickly

  • LordRegalLordRegal Member Posts: 1,429

    I’ve played a lot of PHead and I’ve been grinding the Nemesis achievement, and I have to say I think Nemesis’ tentacle beats a no add on PHead shockwave in most scenarios once Nemesis is T2. It’s shorter range but comes out faster, doesn’t hurt your turning as you aim like Phead’s, you can flick at the moment you release while PHead locks in place, and if you miss the survivor you break the pallet to let you keep chasing as opposed to recovering, breaking the pallet, and only then being able to move on. PHead only wins in needing 2 consistently to down rather than potentially 3, and being able to hit through walls which while powerful, is situational.

    the one thing I think people underestimate is Nemesis’ power prioritizes the hit over the pallet. I don’t think any other power that can interact with both does this. Chainsaws, shred…if it’s a toss up which it hits, the pallet is always chosen. Nemesis can chase someone, let them throw the pallet down, and act like a huntress to down them as they throw it. No other pallet breaking power does that and it turns it into a win win for him - he either takes the health state or infection, or if he misses slightly or waits too long and they dead hard, he still gets the pallet for free. I’ve seen so many people not realize he doesn’t prioritize pallets and go down very unintelligently as a result, giving me opportunities huntress would love to get.

  • SlickstylesSlickstyles Member Posts: 445
    edited June 2021

    I mean... Otz also has a 25 win streak on Nemesis on the second day of playing him, something he struggled to do with many other killers. What does he have for him? A power that forces you into binary decisions (damned if you do, damned if don't), if play properly. On certain loops, survivors just go down to his power. If a survivor drops a pallet, the tentacle will prioritize the survivor which is great unlike Blight's power.

    He has a lingering hitbox on his power that many do not know of nor do they take advantage of. His zombies occasionally pushes survivors off of objectives, facecamps survivors, or wombo combo's survivors on loops. They also sometimes give info on where survivors are.

    I've played my fair share of Nemesis as well and I certainly think he's better than Trickster, Legion, Myers, Clown, and Pig. I'd put him in lower B tier with Demo. I feel like he's underrated like Demo and requires to some time to be decent at before you can appreciate him. Any killer that can shut down loops and break pallets with his power is already out of C tier.

    Like many others, I feel like his first infection should not give survivors a speed boost. This would greatly help his early game.

  • TheRockstarKnightTheRockstarKnight Member Posts: 2,103

    I don't think comparing him to other Killers is the right way to go about this.

    Blight is worse than Spirit, but that doesn't him bad.

    Trapper being one of the weakest Killers doesn't make him bad either.

    And, IMO, Nemesis is a decent Killer.

    Tier 2 infection is where he really shines; Survivors that pre-drop pallets let you break them quickly, Survivors that camp pallets get Injured as long as you aim correctly, and Survivors that pay attention to the tentacle animation can be mindgamed and M1'd or Tentacled.

    He does have counterplay if the Survivors are attentive and competent, but a lot of people just aren't yet. He only came out to live servers two days ago.

    And even if they are, it's a pretty even thing for him or them to win a chase on most tiles.

    His Zombies are RNG, but they will generally help out during a match.

    Even if they never catch a Survivor they'll often deny loops or pathways to Survivors. It's a rare match where they'll completely useless - and there are about as many matches where they carry you (I had a game where a Zombie camped a central room; prevented a gen there from being fixed until I could arrive, ended a chase twice, and granted a free infection once - just as a had a game where a Zombie wandered aimlessly around am empty corner of the map while the other did nothing but get blinded repeatedly).

    The vaccines also provide a not insignificant slowdown. Survivors unlocking chests and running to unlock chests are Survivors not on generators. 8 to 12 seconds of a Survivor not repairing can make a huge difference.

    Nemesis is not going to be the next Spirit or the next Huntress, but he's absolutely a decent addition to the roster. He has AI companions and the vaccines - which is enough to distinguish him from Demo and PH IMO - and has a chase power that is strong enough to be worthwhile to learn.

    Once you get a good feel for the tentacle, and throw on 2 gen regression perks of your choice, you'll be 3-4k'ing 60% of your games.

    You will not be crushing Sweaty SWF Squads, but unless you were playing Nurse flawlessly, running Spirit or Blight with strong regression perks, or getting a lucky early down with a Killer that can camp very efficiently that was never going to be the case anyway.

    Nemesis is a perfectly average Killer with a quirky and gimmicky mechanic to make him stand out.

    Which is something I'm personally very happy for after the design nightmares that are The Twins and The Trickster.

  • Karao_KeKarao_Ke Member Posts: 1,206

    Nemesis definitely isn't D tier and placing him next to Trickster & Legion is just distasteful. I'd say he deserves to be B tier and with a few minor buffs, can easily by A tier given he's just a weaker version of Pyramid Head/and Plague combined.

    With that being said, his kit pretty much covers most of the basics. He has chase ability (including zombies), map information (zombies & vaccines) as well as map pressure (zombies pushing you off of gens, etc). The only thing he doesn't have is map mobility. Give or take, a lot of killers lack more dynamic to their power and just have 1 aspect of it whereas Nemesis has more, just like Freddy.

    You say holding shift+w is the ultimate counter to Nemesis, well I say more than half of the killer roster has the same exact problem. This isn't exclusive to Nemesis as running away from a loop completely negates Doctor, Clown, Pyramid Head, etc.

    Now if we were to compare killers, I could say once survivors are infected & you're tiered up (doesn't take too long), he's better than Pyramid Head as he can both break pallets with his power and bait his attack a lot more efficiently. Doesn't this remind you of someone? It should remind you of Oni/Myers, because as you tier up/gain your power through the match, you get stronger. Gotta earn it.

    But what if we were to take a look at his downfalls.. I could say Plague is way better than Nemesis since Nemesis's infection does nothing other than allow survivors to be injured; something that should've been available from the first place, compared to Plague's which either forces you to stay injured & loud the entire match or cleanse, risking a use of her Vile Purge that can hit you from far away. Not to mention, his infection gives you a Sprint Burst away, Plague's doesn't.

    Main point is, Nemesis is a good killer with a power that just needs to be tweaked a little bit. Make his "infection" more threatening, his "tier 3" have more to it, and stop giving survivors a Sprint Burst away just because they get infected. If the devs go through with these 3 minor buffs, he'd be a high-tier killer. But just because he has problems from the get-go doesn't make him weak, as a lot of other killers don't have nearly the same amount of diversity in their power.

    P.S. I've played a lot of matches against Nemesis and I cannot tell you how many times I've been forced off of a gen because of his zombies. Good Nemesis players also like to push survivors towards his zombies, so you best bet I got injured a few times by them. They thrive in indoor maps, but even in outdoor, they aren't as useless as you think.

  • SteahSteah Member Posts: 511

    Low b is also putting him ahead of a lot more than the people you named. Also a 25 win streak doesnt mean anything. Otz also got a 50k on Trapper with 3 perks and 1 addon. Does that mean Trapper is op? No of course not.

    Again his zombies are super inconsistent at best. I have had full games where they don't do anything. At best case scenario they shut down a loop if someone is already infected. Trapper traps also shut down loops, but you don't need to infect someone and give them a speed boost while also having no control on whether or not that part of your power actually wants to cooperate.

    Phead also has the cages to prevent hook perks on survivor, the trails for tracking, and his ranged attack while more clunky has a way bigger range, is wider, does not need to hit someone first before it becomes lethal, and can hit multiple people. Yes Nemesis can get you into a damned if you damned if you don't position but the amount of time it takes to get someone there is so bad. Plus once people figure out the pallet stuff his tentacle is just going to be a huntress hatchet loop mind game. It just makes playing around dropped pallets more dangerous because at least you hit the pallet if you miss.

    Finding a survivor in the open and i get punished for using my power. Great design there.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,815

    Nemesis is better than Legion, Ghostface, Myers, Trapper, Pig, Clown, Trickster and even Doctor and Freddy. He's a short-range Deathslinger that doesn't have to reel in for hits, breaks pallets quick, and has 4 stacks of STBFL built into his power.

    Could he be better if the removed the speed boost? Absolutely, but he's by no means weak now. He's the most B-tier killer I think I've ever played.

  • NamelessNameless Member Posts: 778

    When they remove the Sprint Burst from an infection hit, it'll be worth using your power more on healthy survivors. In other words you won't be relying as much on hitting the zombies with your power to tier up.

    The fact that the zombies are inconsistent in getting downs is imo not really a problem. I found that the tracking potential of the zombies is actually where your true benefits lie. Again though, the AI needs to be improved so it doesn't just casually take a stroll in places where gens are completed or just pays a visit to the corner of the map.

    Maybe an interesting idea is to tackle both problems is by allowing the killer himself to choose where the zombies go to. Let them mark 2 spots on the map where zombie A and zombie B go to. Zombies will be more usefull AND it's a strategical choice if you do get a down, you're being rewarded for your skill rather than just lucky.

  • AvignonAvignon Member Posts: 133

    i mean i dono if i'd put him A or B tier but bottom 5? neah.

    For one you're overselling how good holding W is, something that works against... 20ish killer on the roster?

    Also something about the zombies i've noticed is that YES they land hits fairly rarely, but i've gotten alot of value out of zombies from suvivors just realizing one is somewhere around / within the LT wall / Jungle Gym and just leaving the loop... allowing me to get a hit in the open on the way to the next tile

    Also the zombie were buffed form beta and provide more mutation, and there are also addons for getting extra mutation of them.

    Overall yeah, i'd put him around PH level, weaker, sligthly, different really. PH can hit through walls, but i feel his power is way harder to controll since you're locked into only being able to move with W, also there's a reactable delay on PH's wave, tentacles are much faster. PH counters hook perks, sometimes but zombies provide some info / map pressure. But if you put PH around the top of A tier i'd put Nem bottom of A tier / high B.

    And if that stupid backasswards hindered speed boost (u wut mate?) on infection get's removed... ow boy

    Plus he's honestly just awsome visually i feel, his run, kick, carry, break and hook animations are all unique. Gives him some personallity compared to the rest of the roster i feel. Maybe bhvr would look into giving other killers some unique animations , like nurse could just ... telekinetically carry you around or something

  • SteahSteah Member Posts: 511

    Aesthetics, music, all that is great. The reason holding W is so effective vs him is because you need to triple hit with your power and give them a double speed boost. If not you are just a m1 killer at 115 who can't mind game because you're so large. Everyone else that is a chasing killer has something. Even Legion downs faster because they get a free first hit and then catch back up. Nemesis is literally just M1 man because your power punishes you for using it.

    Also yeah Phead is clunky and takes some getting used to, but once you do how is Nemesis even comparable. Nemesis is less clunky, can hit over pallets, and can break pallets after he already has built up his infection which gives speed boosts to survivors. Phead is clunky but you can get used to him, can hit through pallets, through walls, and can hit multiple people from further away. In what world Is Nemesis being considered near Phead's level of power?

    Also the zombies can be great or worthless. Inconsistency at it's best. I don't think it's asking too much to have my power actually work in each game.

  • BronzeHandModelBronzeHandModel Member Posts: 114

    Maybe its just me, but when i play Nemesis i get destroyed most of the time. When See otz playing, he easy Kills much better survs then i was facing. I think he is just not my type of Killer. I cannot say what tier Killer he is. I hope that i get used to him some day.

  • SteahSteah Member Posts: 511

    I mean Otz is what, devotion 26 or something. He has thousands of hours in the game and most of that is on killer. He can do well because he has really strong basic mechanics for killer. That does not make Nemesis good. A good player doing well on him does not mean he is good. Otz can do well on everyone, because he is a good killer player. Nemesis is not the one getting the 4k, Otz is.

  • Karao_KeKarao_Ke Member Posts: 1,206

    His map pressure being zombies is laughable. Have you seen the Ai on those things? it walks up to you, you do a loop around it, and bam it's not starring at the wall. At best they are a minor nuisance. And yes the zombies and vaccine are map info but since you have no mobility you can't do much with that info a lot of the time.

    The zombies dominate in indoor maps because survivors don't have many places to run to. With that being said, I'm assuming you think they're useless in outdoor maps and while they aren't as promising, they can and will pester you off of a gen and there's nothing you can do about it other than trying to lead them away & bug them out on an object. I've noticed a lot of Nemesis players run Ruin because it's extremely useful as the gen you were on is regressing while you're trying to lead the zombie away.

    Also how is he better than Phead? Because he can break loops with his power? Phead can hit multiple people through walls with a bigger hitbox.

    Base Nemesis with Tier 1 is very weak compared to Pyramid Head, but as his power gets stronger throughout the match, he is definitely better than Pyramid Head, even if it's only by a smudge. Nemesis can easily bait survivors into his tentacle and if they throw down pallets early, can get it out of the way at the same speed. Pyramid Head on the other hand is way different because an early pallet drop and shift+w means trouble as you've now just lost a massive amount of distance.

    his map info and map pressure are minimal at best and his map mobility is worthless.

    Obviously his map mobility is worthless, he has none. As for the map info/and pressure, they are definitely useful. A survivor getting f*cked over by a zombie as well as being hit by killer instinct from a vaccine can be the difference between a free escape or not. Knowing a survivor is on a certain part of the map, especially if it's near a gen is valuable info as you'll know what they're doing and what they're probably going to do next. That's like saying the killer instinct from Victor is useless even though you can put him in some pretty jacked spots to keep track of the survivors.

    Yes he is strong at loops after you have already hit the survivor and let them speed boost away.

    Like I said, he needs a buff to where this doesn't happen.

    But Oni injures survivor on a hit and they leave blood orbs that give him tracking. Myers is stealthed and has a way easier time earning his power because survivors again don't speed boost away. And what do those two get, they both get insta down attacks and can immediately end a game once they proc there power if it all lines up correctly.

    Nemesis can track infected survivors by their coughing, which isn't a huge plus, but it's there give or take. Not as good as Plagues though. As for Myers, he's going to spend a very small amount of time in stealth unless he has addons specifically for that. Not to mention, a survivor going behind objects and cutting corners efficiently is his #1 counterplay, just like how playing safe & staying at jungle gyms is Oni's counterplay. Don't act like Nemesis's power is so easy to avoid if it's the same scenario for other killers as well. It's the same as the shift+w argument, most killers have that problem.

    Nemesis needs to build up his power by letting survivors sprint burst away from him when he lands it to get the ability to break pallets with it (good) and then 1 extra meter (bad) on his m2. Oni and Myers are 1 shotting everyone with insane dash speed, faster vaults, and an extended lunge. Nemesis gets punished for stacking his power while those two don't and they have a better pay off too. How in any world is Nemesis in the same tier as Oni? A weak start, inconsistent zombies providing minimal map pressure, sometimes info that you're lucky if you can use it, and an occasional zombie blocking a loop for you, and pay offs that are barley worth it. Do you think Tier 3 Nemesis is anywhere near as good as Tier 3 Myers? Or a Demon Dashing Oni?

    Do I think Nemesis is as good as a Demon Dashing Oni or a Tier 3 Myers? Hell no. But do you want to know the difference between the 3? While Myers and Oni have to build up their power just like Nemesis, their power is also limited throughout the entire match and has to be earned time and time again, compared to Nemesis when once he has it, he has it the whole game and doesn't have to repeat the repetitive process of having to do this and that just to get it back. That's what makes his power weaker but more efficient because not only is it easy to earn, but it's available the entire match once obtained.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,815
    edited June 2021



    Doctor takes longer to down survivors than Nemesis, despite having less counterplay, and though he has better tracking Nemesis still has a decent bit from his zombies and supply crates, and he has better slowdown. Nemesis also tears through pallets and has a built-in 4 stacks of STBFL.

    And it's a similar problem with Ghostface. He was a lot stronger in a previous meta, but now he's just got too much setup for very little reward. It takes him minutes to get into a powerful position at the start of the trial, and then all of his setup is completely removed in one minor snowball. Instadown perks definitely mitigate this, but at the end of the day survivors can and will outplay or outperk you, even just by holding W like agaisnt Nemesis.

    Edit: And once again, it's a similar problem with Freddy. Good survivors predrop every pallet amd all the slowdown in the world cannot overcome that. Having mobility is nice, sure, but now that his power requires more effort and survivor shave gotten that much more efficient his old, mindless playstyle just doesn't cut it

  • AvignonAvignon Member Posts: 133

    Sure again, the thing about PH is that vs a good survivor you kinda MUST shoot it throgh walls, as it's fairly easy to dodge within the survivors LOS. The only time your hitting on PH is either in animation lock or through walls. Also i feel his power slows you down more on a miss. Nem on the other hand is ... relatively speaking quite easy to land, on survivors actively trying to dodge it in the open. I think the projectile is even faster than DS's, on par with like a Victor Pounce.

    And ye the hitting multiple survivors is a plus... a plus i feel comes up about as often as a zombie hitting a survivor.... What it's reaaaaally good at is closing out games on the last two survivors trying to save in front of you...

    100% Nem's biggest weakness is the whole tripple M2 thing, personally i tend to just M1 survivors to get them off the gen and to a loop then M2 them within the loop itsself. Vaccines are a bummer but fairly limited. Between Corrupt, Lethal Pursuer, BBQ, Thrilling Tremors, Tinkerer, Discordance, Surveillance etc. you can burn through them quite quickly.

  • SchardonSchardon Member Posts: 177

    My biggest issues with Nemesis are the zombies and him needing 3 attacks to down someone with his power.


    His zombie being part of his "kit" makes it so the rest of his kit can't be too strong by itself. If his tentacle was stronger the zombies would probably be too much in theory but the zombies, as of now, are absolutely horrible. The only time the zombies are useful is if they randomly decide to walk into a loop where you're chasing a survivor or when they interrupt unhooking/gens.

    All of those scenarios are quite rare while the second one can be easily countered by survivors because zombies get stuck on basically everything.

    This plus the fact that 2 zombies on Red Forest are basically non existent. 2 Zombies are fine on maps like Treatment Theater. It's a small map and an in-door map. Zombies can't wander around too much without being rendered useless. On huge out-door maps like Red Forest there should be at least 3-4 Zombies imo. Especially given the low mobility of Nemesis. He can't just zoom around like Billy or Oni.


    His tentacle requiring 3 hits AND giving the survivor a speed boost on the first hit is dumb. It should bei either one of those but not both. Especially given how many vaccines are available on the map it gets even worse. Imo there are too many. I find myself needing to re-infect survivors way too much. So his power, which should actually accelerate my kill speed slows me down more often than not.

    Sure, I get Killer Instinct whenever someone vaccines but this actually doesn't do anything on Nemesis if we're honest. Nemesis already has decent information due to his zombies and he probably can't even get to the freshly vaccinated survivor because of his low mobility.


    I think Nemesis would be a pretty good killer if the zombie count would be adjusted on map size and his tentacle hit would be slightly reworked to either always hurt survivors (so the infection basically just makes them vulnerable to zombies and make them louder due to puking) or to not grant the survivors a speed boost on the first hit.


    I mean seriously... Hold W is super effective on DbD especially against Killers with low mobility (like Nemesis). Having to go through 2 Speed boosts before being able to down someone is ridiculous imo.

  • gendossgendoss Member Posts: 2,210

    I kind of agree with you that he's a monster in chase, if you get to a loop you're basically done for and you're forced to just run in a straight line or else you die. I don't agree that there are too few vaccines, I've mostly ended my matches with a few vaccines to spare honestly. He's better than Pyramid Head if you decide to loop him.

  • burt0rburt0r Member Posts: 2,455

    Using streamer and even more so the bigger ones as comparison is useful as looking at the pro league player in league of legends for their outplay with the exception that lol matches challenger player against each other and not everything down to gold. The argument this Streamer can do a 1000 4k streak holds no value when someone from the top 10/5% of the community gets matched against 70% of the rest.

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