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Dead hard must be reworked



  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    Huge chunk... Survivors have more useful perks than killers... Killer meta was always the same because without slowdowns perks it's almost impossible to play killer (unless you are against inexperienced survivors who don't even know what looping is)

  • selflessneaselflessnea Member Posts: 565

    What? There are practically the same amount if not more "useful" killer perks then there are survivor perks. Maybe try playing without a complete killer meta build every game and start enjoying it. Not every game needs to be a ruin, pop, undying sweat fest. Otherwise you get into this mindset that everytime you loose its because this perk or that was swf when in reality you did just get outplayed.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 2,106

    Ruin Pop Undying is an overperforming combo compared to the rest but that doesn't mean the rest are as bad as the average survivor perk.

    Out of Jill and Leon, Counterforce is probably the best perk and it's purely competitive with Small Game. You can maybe make a case for Rookie Spirit though.

    But before that we had Yun-Jin with not a single good perk, before that we had Elodie with not a single good perk, before that we had Felix with one good perk (At a stretch), then Cheryl, with no good perks, then Zarina's For the People.

    There's way too many survivor perks that are too conditional (Autodidact, Deliverance, Solidarity, Wake Up, Flashbang) or just have no value (Red Herring, Off the Record, Wake Up, Hope, Premonition, Deja Vu)

    There's certainly more good survivor perks than most people think, as a handful of perks are underrated, but there's no way to make the case that there's more useful survivor perks than killer perks.

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    Playing without perks that slow down the game against survivors who hold m1 on generators is IMPOSSIBLE, this is a fact... Especially if you want to play "fair" (aka not tunneling nor camping)

    Not a single good perk... You are underestimating the perks that survivors have...

    Anyway don't derail the topic, the actual thread is about reworking dead hard. I've already explained why it should be changed...

  • selflessneaselflessnea Member Posts: 565

    But dead hard is fine. If someone brings it into a match and use it for distance then they likely brought it in for that purpose. So they decide to loop in a certain way knowing they can get a couple extra loops because of the perk.

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    This is the main problem about dead hard. As I said before, killers can't waste much of their time on chasing survivors, and quite frankly, being outplayed by a button is really nasty. Again, the problem about this perk is when people who know how to loop use it... It's already difficult to mindgame strong survivors (without mentioning that some people still use the stretched resolution despite it's considered a cheat), now imagine if you won a mindgamed against those people, but a perk essentially reset the chase, wasting the time and the effort that you put in it... Didn't you feel robbed? Be honest...

  • immoraldemiseimmoraldemise Member Posts: 117

    Posts: 13 Bruh

    Considering DH is the worst Exhaustion perk in the game right now because of server instability, you are trippin. Hard. You will spend more time on the ground Exhausted than you will having the perk work as intended.

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    If it's so bad I'll ask you again: why it's one of the most used perks? Especially in red ranks? Did you read what I wrote previously? I did valid examples about this perk and why it should be changed... And I'll say it again despite I already said it before: good people use it to gain distance and extent loops, not for avoiding hits...

  • immoraldemiseimmoraldemise Member Posts: 117

    lol Did you read what i said? "work as intended". Its also 2nd because those stats are taken from the games entirety. That image you probably saw? 2015-2020(iirc). As a whole. Since day 1. Before DS. Dedicated servers have been around less than half its life span. Since Dedicated Servers, extending loops is what its used for now. Using it normally typically gets you killed about 85% of the time.

    Which begs another, BIGGER question. Why isn't DS up there if killers are just SO scared of it and it only got a recent(actual) nerf? Ive literally heard more people complain about DS and Sprint Burst than i have dead hard. Theres 4000 topics on "nerf ds".

    You have no real suggestion for it... Blind the killer and get a speed boost? From a perk called Dead Hard? lol ok... Thats a lazy as hell suggestion. i have no choice but to assume youre just complaining about a perk that outplayed you on ONE killer(Trapper) or youre just trolling because youre bored. Unless you come with a proper suggestion, these are the reactions youre going to be met with.

    Statistically, you need to complain about Lithe or Sprint Burst(Bloodpact?) since have more impact on distance versus the killer. DH is just situational and the survivor can wait to use it. That's the complaint here. People are just mad about getting outplayed at a one time use before a cooldown occurs. If they could spam it, I could see the complaint. Bait it out like everyone else does. You can't really bait out other exhaustion perks like you can DH.

    Off Topic: But in all honesty when it comes to him, Trapper should not even be triggering his own traps. He's the only killer who can mess himself up with his own ability and it doesnt need to work that way. Period. I dont even play killer that much but that has never made a single bit of sense to me, then he's limited on trap placement at the beginning, relying on perks like Corrupt and Ruin to get started. I have a whole rant on why Trapper is DBDs poor abused step child, which we'll be here all day if i start.

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787
    edited July 2021

    1st of all I contested his purpose cause it's unhealthy for the game (I already wrote why and I'm tired to say it again) 2nd i speak for experience, not only for seeing the image that devs release about the most used perks: i play in red ranks and the most common exhaustion perk is dead hard which bring us to my initial question: if it's so bad why it's the most used exhaustion perk? Everyone for some reason keep avoiding this question it seems... 3rd DS was less popular than dead hard for a couple of reasons: DS is behind a dlc, dead hard is free and it was sufficient a single DS for avoiding your entire team to be tunneled (cause obsession), now that the obsession is always present in a game tunneling is a gamble, but since it was nerfed people stopped to using it (at least the ones who use it outside of his purpose, doing generators in the killer's face and exploiting it while doing saves (for me it was never nerfed since I always use it for his purpose).

    3rd I'm not a developer, mine was a simple suggestion. It isn't my job to create and modify perks

    4th as you said you don't even play killer much often, so you probably faced survivors who use it badly. As I said before, bait it isn't a solution cause it works only aganist average survivors

    Post edited by Tostapane on
  • immoraldemiseimmoraldemise Member Posts: 117

    Its your job as a player to give constructive feedback. Especially if you want to be vocal about the game in anyway regarding playing the game regardless of your role. Lazy suggestions make you look like you don't care about the health of the game like you so state that you do.

    I don't play killer much often, as of late. I'm a year 1 player with several thousand hours in game.

    I'm not avoiding anything. It used to be the best perk to avoid a hit. Now its to gain distance to extend the loop a few more seconds. As I stated, you act like DH is a spammable perk. You aren't playing around it. I'm waiting for you to post an constructive suggestion other than "change it pls". You are in the Feedback and SUGGESTIONS portion of the forum. You posted a lazy suggestion and I called you out for it. What more do you want?

    Lots of things are unhealthy for the game. Literally, so much more than Dead Hard. As I stated, the stats are grouped from 5 years worth of play time, and should be taken with a ginormous grain of salt. Not a reason for you to go Super Saiyan 11 because you see a threat.

    If its changed, then No Mither needs to be changed. Because No Mither needs that complimentary perk in David's 'kit'. They have no plans of changing No Mither, as far as i know. Now if you said repair a gen for x seconds instead of JUST being injured, i could understand that. Maybe do a totem. Hell, sabo a hook to get the killers attention as well as being injured. This way you have to prime the perk, instead of just getting punched in the face and then getting a free out. I would even accept be chased for a few seconds. DBD has so many prerequisites you could choose from.

  • Elessar93Elessar93 Member Posts: 62

    The main reason dead hard is so bad right now is how it is used to loop a killer for eternity. You say you will down the survivor in the next seconds. Wrong. Imagine: dead hard, safe pallet. Break the pallet, bloodlust denied. Start the chase again. Another safe loop, the survivor knows he cannot dead hard again, pallet wasting time. Now repeat this for every useful loop and you have a survivor staying alive enough time to let the rest of the team to finish gens in no time. Just a few killers can do an axception to this rule. The basic killers such as trapper, the wraith, etc. have no chance to beat this loop-fest. Of course if a bad survivor player uses it you are not losing a lot of time to get him again, but as a rank 1 killer I met a lot of players able to keep you busy enough time to prevent you to save the match. And I don't like the fact I need to play the same 3/4 viable killers to have a fair match.

    Anyway I will use this thread to show another problem with the game. Most of the perks are useless compared to others on both sides. So we have the same lobbies with dead hards, ds, unbreakable, prove thyself, borrowed, and killers with pop, tinkerer, ruin and so on...

    So to conclude the matches at least in red ranks are becoming really boring because of this.

  • immoraldemiseimmoraldemise Member Posts: 117

    Its a SWF problem. Rarely do i see folks at red ranks playing solo, dominating the killer like that. I watch plenty of rank 1 killer streams. I'm fully well aware what youre talking about too with the BS perks. I would love nothing more than more variety in games. Its why I don't play killer, as of late. Its the same SWF shenanigans with every group. It just changes slightly.

    I'm not saying there's -nothing- wrong with Dead Hard. But i'm sick of looking on the forums and seeing the dumbest, laziest suggestions ever. And to be fair, red rank matches have been boring for YEARS. Its literally nothing new. Ive been red rank plenty of times. Theres no incentive to go that high unless you really want to sweat.

  • Elessar93Elessar93 Member Posts: 62

    Yeah exactly, but the problem is I don't have the choice to NOT play with SWF because I have enough hours and experience to get enough points to reach red ranks in no time and I won't lose matches on purpose to go down to green ranks just to stomp unexperienced survivors. I think they should really consider at least some kind of debuff to SWF players because they are not playing the same game as solo survivors.

  • CaleegiCaleegi Member Posts: 400

    Dead Hard isn't even that powerful you just clearly aren't that good with handling it. The majority of the time it doesn't really work cause the survivor misses the opportunity or they just get knocked down 5 secs later anyway and you are saying that just cause its used a lot it should be nerfed? Ok well lets play this game...how about we then nerf ruin, bbq, pop goes the weasel, tinkerer, corrupt intervention etc and some survivor perks that are fair like self care, urban evasion, etc just cause they are used a lot? that would be fair wouldn't it? now do you see how flawed your logic is?

    Oh another point to add is, if someone uses dead hard most killers are faster than survivors, it does not take that long to catch up lol and yeah some killers do struggle like Trapper but most perks he struggles with cause he is weak af and i think they are going to rework him after Legion if i am correct? but also you can literally just bait someone really easily into using dead hard and they fail.

    Improve your game style.

  • Viktor1853Viktor1853 Member Posts: 755

    but why bbq you do know that it helps to prevent camping right

  • immoraldemiseimmoraldemise Member Posts: 117

    Yeah nobody uses it to prevent camping. They use it for the BP boost to killers that already have an insane farming rate. Because the community is toxic.

    If they alienate one part of the player base it will literally kill the game. That is why they won't break up the queue. Instead, they need to buff solo, WAY more than it is currently with the small game change and Kindred. Changing perks to base kit would cause a massive rework on a bunch of perks, so thats not advisable.

  • selflessneaselflessnea Member Posts: 565
    edited July 2021

    Aw dang. Got outplayed. The perk was brought in for a reason. Same reason killers/survivors bring certain perks. Dead Hard is fine like almost all other perks. People only complain because it is in your face. Oh and sprint burst resets the chase as well but let's not talk about that 🤷‍♀️

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    I'd rather face en entire SB team than an entire dead hard team... SB can't be used whenever you want, while dead hard is INFINITELY better regarding this point. This alone is a thing that must be changed imo

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    Ah because you see every match that I do, isn't it? Please... If you don't have valid points about your thoughts just don't wrote anything at all. We are talking about dead hard, but since you want do the part of the "that guy", let me refresh your memory... The old ruin was changed FOR THIS REASON despite people was fine with that perk (only newcomers complained about it, and since behavior want a game balanced for newcomers in order to attract more people to this game...). Bbq was already nerfed (and it's a joke to counter it) and pop was reduced his timer from 60 to 45 seconds, thinkerer was changed cause it was completely useless (but probably was changed cause they were reworking hillbilly) and if you complain about corrupt intervention when the simple counter is to move in another area or just waiting the time out for this perk well, i don't know what to say... Regarding the part of the useless survivor perks, even killers have ######### perks that nobody use, it goes in both ways... On this point I can agree with you: those perks need to be changed

  • selflessneaselflessnea Member Posts: 565

    but that is the thing SB can be used when ever you want

  • TostapaneTostapane Member Posts: 787

    Wrong, you can do your best for using it in certain situations (keep the exhaustion at 39 seconds in order to use it when the killer will come for you), but you can't directly control it (once you start running it will activate no matter what). Dead hard can be activated by pressing a button, anytime you want.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    That is one of the most disingenuous things I've ever heard. Did you not cringe a little when you said that? Trust me, everyone else did.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    If Dead Hard is broken, then prove it. All you have to do to prove Dead Hard is broken is to compare the amount of chase time between all the exhaustion perks using the exact same loop path. Do about 5 loops paths for each exhaustion perk, do about 5 different looping paths. After you get all that information, you can present to the boards the evidence showing that Dead Hard is way out doing the other endurance perks for chase time. In fact, you can just use Lithe, Sprint Burst and Dead Hard for your comparisons so you have endurance perks that will be used everytime. (Balanced Landing and Head On are pretty situational).

  • TacitusKilgoreTacitusKilgore Member Posts: 1,381

    Im MUCH more bothered by sprint burst. Out of position? Just run away at mach speed! No loops in sight? Good thing you've got pocket lightpseed to get you to one! Rightfully earned instadown coming your way? Nope! Seeya nerd. Deadhard cant fix a lot of the above issues which are exceptionally beneficial to killers. Sprint burst can do all of that and more, though. I hate it so much more than DH.

  • EvilhorstEvilhorst Member Posts: 103

    What more of a proof does anybody need, that you are just some troll than digging into other peoples old comments, just to get a reaction?

    I mean you are getting a reaction now, me pittying you. I am not even mad, just sad that for some people, trolling is the only social interaction, they get in life.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    Your the one that said "ruin, bbq, pop goes the weasel, tinkerer, corrupt intervention" aren't as strong as Dead Hard. Killer perks are far stronger than survivor perks and your talking about meta killer perks and saying they're weaker than Dead Hard. You can't say something that disingenuous and not be called out on it. If you are going to make an argument for nerfing a perk, then at least make a truthful argument.

  • EvilhorstEvilhorst Member Posts: 103

    Let's say a good dead hard in a loop can save you 20 seconds, which is really low for any exhaustion perk. And nowhere near close what actually happens but alright.

    Pop can save you a maximum of 275 seconds. Its kinda nonsense to use that number, because you already have won the match once you reached this (because of 11 hooks), but we gotta be REALLY trying to proof dead hard is not that strong

    Considering extending a chase give survivors extra gentime a dead hard means 60 extra seconds for survivors.

    That means only 5 Dead Hards are needed to outperform OPTIMAL Pop goes the weasel usage. Both things usually do not happen, however 5 dead hards are WAY more likely than 11 Pops. Also: Killer needs to perform well for pop, You do not need to perform well for DH.

    There is no way anyone could ever say Pop is stronger than DH. Whoever says that is simply in denial. DH does more for survivors than Pop does for killers.

    Ruin is harder to detemine as it has almost infinite potential (Same goes for DH though). We can say at the very least it gives you 14 seconds for the cleanse + whatever time the survivor need to cleanse it. We could go with the data Otz provided in a recent video (in which pop gave the killer WAY less seconds), since its the best data we have lets take it: 171 seconds. Thats literally just 3 dead hards. HOWEVER 3 dead hards happen usually in a match, a ruin staying on to achieve this amount of time is extremely rare. And even then it is heavily outperformed by dead hard or any exhaustion perk in the game.

    Whoever says BBQ is stronger than ruin or pop is just beeing silly. Corrupt Intervention sure is a strong perk, still not even close to beeing as valuable as Pop and Ruin. Tinkerer is usually just a perk to make ruin and pop work well in the first place and its practically useless on Killers without some kind of way to go around the map quickly, since you have only 20 seconds to react. You also have to sometimes drop chases to gain anything from it. So we have one perk actually countering TWO Killer perks in terms of seconds gained.

    -All these perks need the killer to perform well in chases and map pressure.

    -Survivors have to do nothing for dead hard.

    -I was beeing VERY kind with DH extending chases for "only" 20 seconds

    Nobody can look at these numbers and actually be serious about saying any of these perks reach the power level of DH. It would be an absolute ludicrous, illogical statement. Thats the power of pressing E (or whatever key you have bound).

  • feechimafeechima Member Posts: 755

    Can you guys start typing this under one of the other 300 threads with the same topic. I'm assuming after DH is out of the way SB will be next.

This discussion has been closed.