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Legion stun needs to be removed

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  • Keene_KillsKeene_Kills Member Posts: 649

    For the record, "Deep Wound" is the biggest downfall of Legion, of this chapter, and of the entire game at the moment after being attached to Borrowed Time. It's absolutely worthless, not a threat whatsoever, and only wastes about 15 seconds give or take. There's no use in tagging multiple survivors, as by the time you catch up and hit a 2nd or 3rd one, the fatigue wears off, and you begin a pursuit, the first (and/or second) tagged survivor has already mended and got right back on that gen. Deep Wounds needs looked at and reevaluated in the worst way right now.

  • ChuckyyoChuckyyo Member Posts: 65

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    Because getting the first hit is VERY easy, you would then just need to follow the survivor for 30 sec until they go down. We played that version for more than a week internally and it was absolutely terrible. Even Killer felt it was super cheap and unexciting.

    We also learned this from the Pig Reverse Bear trap.

    We also played with the 4.6 speed for a long time and to make him balanced, the power required to be WAY much slower than the current state (with longer cooldowns), this version was considered way less fun to play with and against.

    Thanks for these explanations!

    One of my problems with the Legion is that it's very hard to use the power for the second hit. The cooldown is only one of several aspects there. Another one is that it makes no difference if I hit an injuried or a healthy survivor with the power. After a frenzy hit, both are in the exact same state. So if I hit a survivor with a normal hit, I don't have much incentive to chase him with the power, because it makes the first hit feel wasted in a way. (Therefore, it also seems weird that you lose your power meter after a normal hit.)

    The other option would be to catch up to the survivor with the power and then deliver another normal hit. But that's barely possible because a) you lose your meter and b), the cooldown makes you lose some of the distance you caught up. What's great about the Spirit's power is that you can use it so fluently. Hit someone, let them run, follow them with the power and down them after reappearing, all in one motion. Just in terms of fun and game flow, chasing someone with Legion is way more clunky.

    So it's really hard to use the power for the second hit. Which is a shame, because the power is a lot of fun. It's super fun to chase someone at high speed and jump over pallets. Haunting someone down with 110% movement speed, on the other hand, isn't that fun. Which doesn't mean I'm asking for a higher base speed, I think the lower speed with a cool power is the right way. But because the power clearly is the more fun part, it would be cool to be able to use it in more situations.

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,479
    Wolf74 said:

    The stun and losing the prey that you just hit with Frenzy would be ok, IF the DW would actually do anything.
    Right now it is way to rare that someone will drop just because of getting affected by DW.

    Unless you get the bug that doesnt allow you to mend it's as you stated very rare.... mending makes this braindead if you drop during DW you're truly something else 🙄
  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 7,186

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    If it's purpose was just to waste time then you failed. By The time legion has tagged the second survivor the first one already has their mend half way done. Let's not even get to the point that none of that scenario is actually gonna get you a down either because then you're just chasing them like a hag with no traps.Not like they're gonna waste time healing either because why should they? He's no threat while injured.

  • The_CrusaderThe_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Bravo0413 said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    If nurse misses she gets a stun, legion doesnt.

    Nurse at least takes some skill to use, legion wouldnt

    And nobody ever said nurse was balanced. Its widely acknowledged shes the best because she breaks the game.
    Yeah breaks the game /\ ..... lemme just hop on nurse and give myself a 4k..... oh wait I'm a player who hasn't gotten used to her because she's difficult to master... so most likely I'll get my ass handed to me... nurse actually rewards killers for learning her where most other killers don't 
    Umm I addressed that where I said nurse takes skill to use. Legion does not. Anyone can pick him up and get a hit in frenzy.

    But nurse...yeah she avoids the mechanics of the game. Anyone can tell you that. Thats why shes the best.
  • Undying_ZombieUndying_Zombie Member Posts: 39
    edited December 2018

    @RSB said:

    @MegaWaffle said:

    @Janick said:
    Because getting the first hit is VERY easy, you would then just need to follow the survivor for 30 sec until they go down. We played that version for more than a week internally and it was absolutely terrible. Even Killer felt it was super cheap and unexciting.

    We also learned this from the Pig Reverse Bear trap.

    We also played with the 4.6 speed for a long time and to make him balanced, the power required to be WAY much slower than the current state (with longer cooldowns), this version was considered way less fun to play with and against.

    How large is this "We" group you keep mentioning and why does this "We" group decide what is fun and not fun for the rest of the community? Why wasn't there an extended PTB where community ideas where implemented (or the ideas you listed above) where the community at large could test and decide for themselves what felt "fun"?

    This is starting to sound like EA when they said "you just don't know what you want".

    Edited for spelling error.

    This "we" group is probably the same group, that played here:


    Switch to 0:46

    Watch the gameplay, then cry.

    PS. Hear what mattheu says, really good [BAD WORD], telling a lot how devs treat killers.

    What bothers me here is he uses a argument that makes no sense against making good/strong killers. The claim that they would have to make stronger and stronger killers.. IE "A little stronger than Billy, then stronger than that ect" When they could simply.. and this is a shocker here I know.. Make them on par with Billy. Heck on par with Huntress even or Myers. They do not have to make them stronger and stronger.. I really do not get why he was thinking that at all.

    ( Not to mention the bad gameplay shown but I am letting that slide. )

    EDIT
    There is also the constant "Its fun its fun!" To who? I did not really find it fun that it takes over 5 hits to down someone as Legion. ( Another tiny edit as I forgot to add in the initial hit to put survivor into wounded state. )

    Post edited by Undying_Zombie on
  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,479
    Delfador said:

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Okay I have a question.

    Some legions hit you two times and then stop following you, allowing you to go to a nearby pallet and start to mend. You start to mend with 70% deep wound and with the new changes, the deep wound continues to go down while mending. After a couple of seconds later when the deep wound reaches 30%, they come back and use frenzy mode and down you. You can't use pallets and windows against him when you get the first 2 hits, and you still won't be able to use them when he finally comes to down you.

    The whole process takes less than 30 seconds and there is nothing a survivor could do in that situation especially if the killer equipped bloodhound and enduring.

    Killers like nurse, huntress and spirit can do the same thing but at least they require skill to be good at. It is easy to use the legion but this way is so effective that even if you are a good survivor and the killer is bad, there is almost no counter play.

    This thread actually explains it a lot better than I did, so you might want to take a look at it.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34584/by-design-legion-is-the-universally-least-fun-killer-in-the-game/p1

    Heaven forbid there is a tactic to down people with the legion.... the killers not tunneling, spreading pressure and then going back for the weakest target but because survivors get caught with your pants down you think this should be nerfed??.. the only thing that is wrong with this killer is that... yes too easy to use and chase dont end when the killer is learned.. 
  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,479
    Delfador said:

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Okay I have a question.

    Some legions hit you two times and then stop following you, allowing you to go to a nearby pallet and start to mend. You start to mend with 70% deep wound and with the new changes, the deep wound continues to go down while mending. After a couple of seconds later when the deep wound reaches 30%, they come back and use frenzy mode and down you. You can't use pallets and windows against him when you get the first 2 hits, and you still won't be able to use them when he finally comes to down you.

    The whole process takes less than 30 seconds and there is nothing a survivor could do in that situation especially if the killer equipped bloodhound and enduring.

    Killers like nurse, huntress and spirit can do the same thing but at least they require skill to be good at. It is easy to use the legion but this way is so effective that even if you are a good survivor and the killer is bad, there is almost no counter play.

    This thread actually explains it a lot better than I did, so you might want to take a look at it.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34584/by-design-legion-is-the-universally-least-fun-killer-in-the-game/p1

    Also....... LOL
  • purebalancepurebalance Member Posts: 661

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    So you're supposed to create pressure, but never be able to land a killing blow basically? I can loop Legion forever essentially. The only time I've been downed by a Legion so far is when they were camping and I took 2 hits saving the person from the hook.

    Much less, the short duration it takes to mend and the fact that you can mend yourself makes it not really waste any time other than the killer's

  • akbays35akbays35 Member Posts: 1,123

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    Yeah but due to his "design" the only way Legion if viable is tunneling and abusing moonwalking to force deep wound timer down, then survivors are forced to either mend and get hit or just get downed from deep wounds. This pretty much makes him an anti chase killer which sounds incredibly unfun for both sides.

  • Undying_ZombieUndying_Zombie Member Posts: 39

    @purebalance said:

    @Undying_Zombie said:

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It does not actually do that in practice though. It needs adjustments. That or the killer needs adjustments in other places to compensate for a power that does not do what its meant to do. As is the killer is way too slow for what he can do. It does not make sense at all that his base movement is 110. ( same as Hag and Huntress )

    As is the way the power works currently is a bit buggy. As I know others have pointed out. The only way you guys can fix it is by making it be effected by terror radius instead. There is also almost no time wasted and no risk at all to mend. If its meant to waste time for the survivor it does not do a good job of it at all due to how fast you can do it. When doing it there is no threat as well since the timer stops. ( Something I do not think should happen with how the whole thing currently works. )

    Of course this is my opinion from my experience with playing with and against Legion. ( As well as observation of other people playing ) A opinion I know that will be ignored of course.

    You shouldn't be able to mend yourself. I'd even be ok if you could mend up to 75% and hold it there until someone finds you, but removing the ability to mend yourself would fix this killer 100%.

    This I do agree with and it was one of the things I said in the past during the PTB. ( I also know others who said it. ) I do not see them doing that at all sadly.. and doing what I am asking for is at least the half way point of it.

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,479
    Bravo0413 said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    If nurse misses she gets a stun, legion doesnt.

    Nurse at least takes some skill to use, legion wouldnt

    And nobody ever said nurse was balanced. Its widely acknowledged shes the best because she breaks the game.
    Yeah breaks the game /\ ..... lemme just hop on nurse and give myself a 4k..... oh wait I'm a player who hasn't gotten used to her because she's difficult to master... so most likely I'll get my ass handed to me... nurse actually rewards killers for learning her where most other killers don't 
    Umm I addressed that where I said nurse takes skill to use. Legion does not. Anyone can pick him up and get a hit in frenzy.

    But nurse...yeah she avoids the mechanics of the game. Anyone can tell you that. Thats why shes the best.


    Yes you did address that she takes skill but you also state she breaks the game and that noboday says shes balanced... we can both agree that legion would OP AF if their frenzy 1 shot or if they had no forced cooldown after hitting someone 2x with their frenzy... it takes someone with a few thousand hours in order to "break the game" with nurse... not everyone is zubat or marth88... 
  • ChesterTheMolesterChesterTheMolester Member Posts: 2,771
    edited December 2018
    Janick said:

    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    This completely contradicts your statement about Legion being a "delayed insta-down Killer". 

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 3,601

    @ChesterTheMolester said:
    Janick said:

    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    This completely contradicts your statement about Legion being a "delayed insta-down Killer". 

  • azazerazazer Member Posts: 446
    @Janick
    Isn't there some middle ground we can explore? 
    You won't budge on stun, that's fine. Can we at least mull over the idea that a second deep wound allows the bleed out timer to run down during a chase so we aren't stunning ourselves 3 times to down 1 victims?
    Or the bleed out timer stopping at 99% while they mend. 
    You liken it to the RBT but I don't ever recall a thread about how good that power is. We're unsatisfied with them because it lacks tangible effect for the killer. 
    We can keep most things in place, but throw us a bone. The last person to be hit by frenzy is going to get the short straw. give us satisfaction using the power. 
  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 7,186

    @DocOctober said:
    Janick said:

    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Now that's actually worthy of a LOL button if there was still one.

    Deep Wound and creating pressure/wasting time? A hilarious joke, mate.

    I guess none of you took into consideration how much time Legion loses using his pitiful excuse of a power AND also as a 110% Killer. That time you make the Survivors "waste" is pretty much compensated by that.

    This ^^

    You waste more of your killer time than the survivor time you wasted. Literally serves no function.

  • DarkGGhostDarkGGhost Member Posts: 1,072

    ok question the mending take around 10 sec, one gen take 90 sec so inorder the legion stop one gen he/she need to hit them 9 time to even the score and this is only for one survivor.so if the killer supposedly waste time why don't make the survivors need to fuel heal ? ( 10 mending + 18 healing = 28sec)

  • xfatexfate Member Posts: 1

    i think just make him like 10% percent faster in frenzy and 5% in just normal walking mode i mean isnt this guy supposed to be fast and sneaky

  • Mc_HartyMc_Harty Member Posts: 3,294

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Well, it's currently not doing that.

  • NoodleLegsNoodleLegs Member Posts: 323
    I escaped the legion twice, yeah, twice, and the second was a legitimately good player. My problem is, I never got down from bleeding out. I'm fine with the movement speed as the Legion and the Spirit move at the same pace, and I only play the Spirit. I survivors.ther make the mending time slower, with skill checks, stop at 75% as @purebalance said, one or two of them, or all of them. It would create actual tension and slow down the game.

    Another thing is the fact you can't down them on a second hit while in Frenzy, though I guess that favours the survivor. Though, buffing up the Legion would be best. Even a little bit, like having a smaller terror radius, or no red stain, similar to Michael's tier 1, as Legion seems like an stealth/ambush killer instead of a killer like say... the Hillbilly or the Huntress.

    I don't know, I'm excited to play them, but those are my thoughts from watching gameplay and playing against them.
  • HarshOnion44HarshOnion44 Member Posts: 30
    I think the timer for deep wounds should tick down 3 seconds after line of sight is broken. Not 5. It adds another five seconds to his timer so it feels a little lacking. 

    Stun should stay, I like that he requires skill to use, I would like to keep it that way. He just needs a little more threat on his ability and I think he’ll be fine. 
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