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Is Spirit really the problem?
MigrantTheGreat
Member Posts: 1,271
For the past 3 days I've been playing Spirit to really see how no sounds is really affecting Spirit. As a dedicated Rin Yamaoka main, turning into Hellen Keller when you use your power is a bit problematic since she has to rely on the most unrelyable killer mechanic.
So my expirement mostly ended with survivor's DCing left and right and it really has me wondering.
Even as of Patch 5.1.0 is Spirit really the problem or are we complaining because she doesn't consistant counterplay such as Ring-Around-The-Pallet?
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Comments
All I see is a bunch of quitters. IMO they're the problem here
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You actually answer you're own question no she doesn't have consistent counter play that's why she is a problem and why no one wants to play against her(obviously some do but most don't) so yeah obviously people are gonna dc against her since bhvr seems to refuse to do anything about her
People DCing are way more problematic than Spirit. I don’t know how you can argue that.
Spirit is the problem. She lacks consistent counterplay, and there's no telling if she's faking her power or actually phasing. Not to mention that when phasing, Spirit has every advantage over the survivor while the survivor has to guess which move will be the correct one.
It comes down to survivors whom want to continue to loop around instead of "trying" to run somewhere else
Yea Spirit doesn't have "counterplay" and if the Devs do give her some sort of "counterplay" then Spirit would be right along side the rest of the killers
But every killer does have their own "power" some of which is just muscle memory (Nurse) others that rely on killers knowing the game (Trapper, Hag, Oni)... I believe that Spirit's is both muscle memory and knowing the game
if she just let you know that she was phasing, id already enjoy facing her 10x more. though, I've seen like 2 good, non frosty eye spirits in my lifetime, so i don't care t h at much, but it should still happen. easily the most unfun part of her for me.
Lately it just feels like survivors just sort of refuse to learn how to play against different killers. Everything gets called broken or uncounterable and we get a ton of topics complaining about how killers even kill survivors.
It just feels like survivors want a really easy game where they escape all the time.
Spirit is unhealthy in her current state but unless those guys were SWF then the first guy who DC'd shouldn't have let their teammates down.
The real problem here is there are two different variants of dbd.
Variant One: Your entire team is good players. Everyone knows totem spawns/gen spawns/how to loop/runs meta perks. Everyone makes maximizing gen efficiency goal # 1. This means anyone in chase can just pre-throw pallets and the team will win easily. Even spirit gets crushed by these teams.
Variant Two: Your team is full of crouching blendettes who will die if they touch a gen. No one except you is running an exhaustion perk. They would rather cleanse dull totems and rummage in chests. You could run a killer for 10 minutes and you will still be hooked with only 1 gen done.
Some players will DC for anything, let's be honest. I'm so tired of being ######### by other survivors because they DC the first time they get downed, the first time they get hooked, or the first time the killer farts near them.
That is not true even tho I am aware that we have many survivor mains that actually think like that. But please don't generalise survivors like that.
Spirit got nerfed many times for good reason, but In think since Iron Will got buffed and you can actually hear when she phases, she is not near OP anymore like she was once. Right now I actually think she need some tweeks or perks need to be changed. But I don't think that she is the problem anymore. Right now it is more the attitude of some players.
Survivors are not escaping easyly already. But this is not point. I am sure most of killers are just fine. But Spirit? Spirit is problem. She is S-Tier killer and she is easy killer. So yes, she need changes.
Because "She is S-tier killer dbd she is easy killer" isn't a enough/legit reason to nerf her.
Nothing to do with counterplay. Spirit is literally brain dead game play. There is no skill involved. If the spirit or survivors try thinking, there is only imminent demise.
Here's my question. You say she lacks consistent counterplay, but why does it make her problematic when she's changing her tactic to outplay survivors who have changed their tactics to out play her?
Outplay involves skill. Spirit involves 0 skill. You can't outplay if there's no skill.
Just to clearify this: Before the Iron Will Buff she just had to put on Stridor and now their is no Counterplay anymore. Doesn't matter if you know she is phasing or not - she knows exactly where you are since she can hear you. Due to that no mindgame or skill would've changed the situation of the survivor. Some in this forum can not use empathy and see how this effects the other side. No one says that she has to be a loopable eZ gg killer, but that had nothing to do with the survivors anymore since their was no interaction needed. It simply changed from a multiplayer to a singleplayer game where the spirit just plays with herself basically. And please don't say that she had do think so much and survivors could still mindgame that #########. That is just the case if the spirit is braindead or something but just depends on the killer.
I already stated above that I don't this way anymore since she already got nerfed / Iron Will got buffed so that is off the table.
Concistant counterplay is bad. If there was a counter to a killer that worked 100% of the time then there would be no point to playing said killer.
That said. No counterplay at all makes it no point in playing against that killer either
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I play primarily Spirit as well, and she is problematic. The only thing the Stridor change did is help take away a perk that made her extremely easy, and now people have to learn some of the more intricate parts of her power. (The parts where, once you learn them, the Survivor has nothing to do against it.)
I play a lot of Survivor as well. And there shouldn't be any kind of one absolute counterplay to her- but there should be potential in chase, outside of just gen rushing or relying only on perks like Houdini Build. (If you have to bring an entire build to attempt to counterplay a Killer's base power, I don't think that's a fair power.)
Imho, and this is as someone who's played both sides, Spirit's add-ons need fixed- they're really strong, despite her already being super strong, and unlike her competitors, there's no way for a Survivor to really get a decent guess on your add-ons mid-match. (Which, is something I've always believed should be possible, as it encourages the Survivors to use their brain and try to figure out the Killer they're versing, instead of just saying 'Let's hold W to win'.)
At the same time, Spirit shouldn't have a stand-still mindgame. Even if you want to argue you can just leave the pallet (Which, you can, and it's a strat that can work against a bad Spirit) there's absolutely nothing stopping the Spirit from waiting to see what kind of fakes/strats you're going to try and then just destroy you because she knew exactly the game you were going to play, while she gave you nothing. She should have a dedicated animation- not the weird loop she has now- along with possibly a small sound effect (such as glass breaking within like, 5 meters of her when she starts the intial phase- though, obviously this isn't required, the other one should be a given.) before she's seen as less problematic.
There's nothing wrong with not giving a Killer one, particular set of counterplay- Killers like Plague do it well, as you can argue many ways to verse her and succeed while she's still a very good, decently strong Killer that can adapt and attempt to play around the variety- but Spirit gets way too much for free, with there being little to no chance for Counterplay on the Survivor's end outside of hoping the Spirit is bad in chase. (A case you also see with Deathslinger, though arguabley less agregeous due to the fact that he doesn't have insanely strong add-ons.)
Learn to be stealthy? The reason Spirit seems 'op' is because you don't play her like you play other killers same with Nurse. Be stealthy stop trying to be a chase orientated survivor against Spirit's. Also "Killers like Plague do it well" no...no she doesn't.
All I see is a screenshot with a bunch of dc's. I could post the same thing with [insert any killer] instead of Spirit.
I don't see how you can make a correlation and a conclusion based on a sample size of 1.
Spirit is problematic. She has all the info while the survivors have zero. Her first counterplay involves bringing a specific perk. Without it, her second counterplay is to throw a pallet every 11 seconds hoping she messes up and that the other survivors do gens.
Sorry to bring it to you but we are not stuck in 2016. This is not a stealth scary survivor thing anymore, it is indeed about being chased. And even the nurse has counterplays and you can atleast react on her. Nurse is one of the strongest killer, still engaging and fun to face - not like spirit. And now wonder why. Maybe try to see it from the other perspective.
Spirit is a problem but not the only problem.
Please stop acting like what scott says has any weight over what other people think. Just cause he streams the game doesnt mean he's right. To play against spirit you literally cant treat her like a standard killer, her power will allow her to catch up to you to fast.
I do play stealthy??? I know a Killer can't kill you if they can't find you lol.
That doesn't negate the issue though- I personally do not think that a Killer's counterplay should come from either gen rushing or not getting caught in the first place, because I don't think it makes for an engaging experience for either players. (I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen the posts about how awful 4man P3 Blendette lobbies are, and know where they're coming from.)
The only reason I even really let it slide as much as I do with Nurse is due to the fact that she does have larger downsides then Spirit. Nurse has been constantly riddled with bugs, doesn't have add-ons that are as strong and do more then intended (Because some of Spirit's add-ons do, and Otz made a great video about this a while back if you haven't heard about it!), and has a power that's far less forgiving. (This doesn't mean I don't think Spirit doesn't require some form of skill and doesn't have a bit of a learning curve, because she definitely does, but I really just don't think it's as big as it should be for her to be as strong as Nurse- especially when you also consider how many other Killers can be more demanding then her overall, but not get as much value overall as well.)
Trust me, I love playing Spirit, and I don't think she's OP (OP does not equal problematic, which is the implication I got from your post). That doesn't mean she doesn't need changes though.
(And to clarify, I say Killers like Plague do counterplay well because of how many options are there on both sides, and just how much those choices can effect gameplay, while still having really good add-ons. (Where some Killers have some pretty... questionable add-ons.) Idk, I just think Plague is a Killer that requires a lot of choices on both ends that really effect the entire game, and do weave together pretty well, even if she's not really the most loved Killer.)
Idk, I just think 'just don't get found' or 'just play stealthy' is a bit of a cop-out in a similar vain to saying 'just do gens'. Sure, those methods work, and they'll get you escapes, but at what cost? Games where you barely interact with the opponent? Games where Killers are encouraged to camp and tunnel because god knows that's the first person they've found all game? That's not really what I'd like to do on either side, and it feels like that's sort of gameplay that would be promoted, just based on what I've seen and understand of the tournament DBD scene.
Idk, I just think Spirit needs adjustments to make her at least a bit of opportunity for mid-chase counterplay. I don't want to see her get gutted or anything like poor Billy, but I want Survivors (myself included) to feel a bit better about facing a Spirit too. (And, again, this isn't an issue that just Spirit has, but I do think that she ends up being one of the worst offenders due to her Add-Ons being so insanely impactful.)
Iron Will isn't a counter anymore since its buff?
Yet everyone hide against Nurse and Huntress
Spirit isn't the problem per se. Shes just not fun or engaging to fight, which is why a lot of survivor players end up dc'ing or giving up against her. Pretty much every other killer has decent counterplay (except timer pig maybe, since RNG can literally kill you against her) with the sole exception of spirit. You are given no visual stimulus, very limited audio stimulus, and only a handful of guesses you can choose from to save yourself. Guessing right doesn't feel like a brain expanding outplay, you just chuckle to yourself and think "wow, that worked?" and move on realizing flipping the coin the other way would've killed you. The best kind of design in a PVP game is where both players are given ample input regarding the actions of one another so that they both feel rewarded when their skill brings them closer to victory. Spirit does not follow this principle, and only the spirits skill is really factored into the equation when versing her.
So no, spirit is not the problem. Its simply how BHVR chooses to design and balance their game that leaves her in a very frustrating spot. All she really needs is a single tweak, just let survivors hear her footsteps and breathing like she can hear theirs. Instant fix, now its consistent across both sides and a huge amount of the frustration is now replaced with a learnable skill curve.