You're obviously not listening or not understanding but I'll try again.
You're the one who completely misunderstood a fairly straightforward point about 1 totem not taking too long to cleanse nor being team reliant as somehow meaning all 5. I understand that finding all 5 totems in solo que can be difficult, which is why I said to find 1 totem on your own multiple times as I have been doing in my own games.
"so your condescension is both folly and laughable. 6/10 for the effort though because it's very obvious you thought you had a clapback moment there."
Ironically this is how you're acting. I've been addressing your points, I'm not the one going out of my way to make comments such as "Yea I can very easily tell you don't have much experience with totem spawns" and "I know you're trying hard to act like a totem master", not only were/are these incorrect but you also are using them as an absolute that you somehow apparently know. Reading back my replies, unless I missed something I was using statements that are not absolutes nor acting like I somehow absolutely know something about you. Then we have "which isn't surprising considering the quality of your arguments." I believe that one should be obvious enough. These seem like pretty clear attempts at slander. Moving on...
Values from the perk is pressure, or I guess in your words the "chaos" it gives. So if that's your problem yes your issue is with the killer getting value out the perk. If the perk isn't applying pressure or helping you apply pressure, than what's the point of using it? You're not a detriment for getting rid of the thing that is applying pressure to the entire team, that's a foolish stance.
In solo que, yeah teams can be bad. That's not a problem of the perk, that's a teammate problem. Otherwise I guess we better nerf literally everything because bad teams will struggle against literally everything. We shouldn't balance nor judge balance based on bad teams, that's dumb, as I hope you can agree. Teams can also be good if the right players come together.
I play solo que, I know there can be bad teams, that doesn't stop me from cleansing NoED in most cases. So what exactly is stopping you but not me?
Also don't we already have a fix to bad teams with SBMM?
We're talking about NoED, not the quality of your teammates, NoED. You can counter it by yourself. You choosing not to is your decision.
If you can't escape because you're babysitting your team, then don't. Also, breaking the totem will help everyone. If they die by then that's on them.
"There are almost always games where I come across totems and I may manage to do one and I see others but I can't do it at the moment (or even later)"
I said this in an earlier response: "Why are you still talking about doing all 5 when we specifically mentioned just doing 1 at the end which is easier, not team reliant, and doesn't take "too much time"?"
Once again, you're not listening or failing to comprehend. I have laid out in plain English we are talking about breaking 1 totem. You can manage to do one? Great. Make that 1 the hex totem.
Its too much to get all 5 totems, ok, break the 1 totem at the end. This is not a problem in solo que since you can break 1 totem on your own, you don't need your team to break 1 totem. Saying breaking 1 totem takes too much time is asinine.
"I'm not occupying a perk slot of mine in compensation for incompetence of other people"
Then don't. Those perks aren't there for your teammates they're there for you. If you can find the totem on your own without the perks, then do it. You'll be a better help to your team breaking the NoED than trying to babysit. If its taking too long, then you don't know the spots well enough and should use the tools available. You don't know the indoor spawns? Then learn them or take the tools just in case you get one. Otherwise accept that you may get unlucky and get a map you don't know that well.
If you're choosing to not use the solutions to the problem that are available, that's a you problem not a perk problem.
I agree with a comment above. If doing totems is such a hinderance to your team, either play with friends, bring a map (which is the best counter to totems imo), bring a perk, or just simply don't play. The action of doing totems is not that big of an issue, if you can search a chest, search for ruin, undying and devour then you can search for a few more totems. The second you see they have NOED, if you have no idea where the totem is, then just leave. Why go for a rescue when your exposed just to complain that you got downed. We all know the regression to progression ratio is severely in favor of survivors, so you doing some totems will not hinder you to the point of you losing the game.
Also, you can literally do 3-4 totems and leave 1-2 so you have an idea where NOED will spawn. But I guess people just want to complain.
This is so well said I can't believe anyone could possibly argue with you to be honest!
It's only wasted if you call it wasted.
Once again then you are taking the gamble and focus on just gens. I do dull totems when I come across them and if noed activates that is the rest of the teams fault.
If i cant help the hooked survivor oh well i did my part and escape.
Well, I thought it was clear enough, perhaps it wasn't. Anyway, that is pretty much what I am saying. There have been lots of times in which I alone cleansed all 5 of the totems, without totem perks. Sometimes the killer had NoeD, sometimes he didn't. I would at least like to know how many totems are still up, and if I can count on my teammates for them or not (randoms, of course). There was absolutely no point into making the totem counter fall onto the most useless perk ever, when it could have simply been a HUD information.
While I don't agree Small game is near "the most useless perk ever", the totem counter should have definitely been a base HUD element.
I agree with this as well. They have reasonable solutions, they just refuse to use them yet get upset the problem is still there. They're perpetuating their own problems.
I believe willful ignorance is a pretty accurate term to use.
You missed my point where I said your "one totem strategy" is absolutely terrible for solo queue and would only make sense in a SWF. Why is it bad for solo queue? Because you're allowing NO Ed to have value and even a minute worth of NO Ed value can absolutely wreck a game and your teammates and also you as well. This has nothing to do with it being a bad thing for the killer getting value out of the perk, it has to do with you as a survivor obviously not wanting the killer to get value out of it as it's a very strong end game perk in droves of situations. Presuming all five totems are up, even if you know where all five of them are, you have to spot check each of the five spawns to see which is NO Ed, meaning a 1/5 chance of getting it right the first time. Especially if the realm has multiple stories and/or is large in size, you're giving NO Ed significantly more value than it otherwise could've have (which is none) if all five totems were cleansed, hence why that is the strategy for solo queue especially. You should not strive to allow No ed to be active if you can help it. It really is that simple of a point and if that's lost on you then that's a personal problem. Your strategy is acting on the premise as if you know exactly which of the five totems is the hex and the reality is that you don't and you have a 1/5 chance of guessing correctly the first time. Each subsequent time is wasting time and you can very easily check 2 out of 5 totems and not find the hex. You also don't seem to be accounting for the time spent looking for said totems and how long it can take traversing some maps as well. This wouldn't be a bad strategy if solo queue had reliable teammates but...solo queue tings.
That wasn't me being condescending, that was an accurate read which you admitted you aren't knowledgeable enough in totem spawns to not use a perk to find them. It's not really meant to be an insult as a majority of players I'd reckon aren't knowledgeable enough in that area. I doubt most people even know that totems spawn in a hex-esque pattern across the map too. The only reason I would use a totem perk is to do totems fast and at that point I'd just bring a map.
My entire complaint about totems has nothing to do really with the perk (no ed) itself, it has to do with teammate quality. I often have the most pepega teammates and I have to babysit them for every little thing as they do almost everything wrong. They never identify where basement is at the beginning of a game (especially against certain killers i.e. trapper/hag) and avoid getting downed near basement to avoid giving killer pressure, they don't know how to not 3 gen, they sit on gens instead of saving other teammates, they run into other teammates constantly when getting chased. The list goes on and on and they are extremely disruptive in the game. How am I supposed to just leisurely roam around the map and cleanse totems as if it's not that big of a deal when I have to play caretaker? The reality is is that I can't. Letting them do whatever and just trying my best on my own gives a worse outcome. I've tried both. I don't enjoy playing babysitter nor want to do it, but that's the reality of non-Sbmm solo queue. I haven't played since the patch so I have no idea if SBMM is effective or not.
All in all, the only thing in regards to totems I care about the devs adding is a counter for all survivors. I have no idea why they locked that behind a perk when it should be a feature given to all survivors.
I didn't miss your point I responded to that. But I'll do it again in more detail.
Let me start with something a little more positive at least.
"All in all, the only thing in regards to totems I care about the devs adding is a counter for all survivors. I have no idea why they locked that behind a perk when it should be a feature given to all survivors."
Yes 100% agree. I'm still going to address everything else brought up, but if that's really all you care about then on that we can agree and leave it there.
(Numbered for easier reading)
1) "Your strategy is acting on the premise as if you know exactly which of the five totems is the hex" I never stated that, and no its not. I said cleanse 1 totem, I never said check 1 spot. No, I don't believe it takes too long to check multiple spots on most maps.
Its not "lost on me" I understand that it is more ideal to get all 5, but its unrealistic in most solo que games. So focus on what you can so solo. You don't like doing 1 totem because too many are up at the end for you, you don't like doing all 5, then here's another solution: do 1 or 2 so your search area is smaller at the end. A middle ground between the two that still works. Alternatively you could just leave at the end.
2) "You should not strive to allow No ed to be active if you can help it" Sure that's an option you can take, but if that's not a reliable option do one of the ones that's most in your control. The solo options works just fine.
3) "This wouldn't be a bad strategy if solo queue had reliable teammates but...solo queue tings." I disagree, that's not really an issue. If I can do it in most of my solo que matches, what's stopping you? If you know where the spots are it should be fairly quick to check in most cases. If you're team is that much of a burden and you can't find the totems in time just leave through the gates and save yourself.
You don't need nor should you expect to save your team every match. Get yourself out if that's all you can do.
4) "even a minute worth of NO Ed value can absolutely wreck a game and your teammates and also you as well. " You and your entire team should not be getting destroyed in 1 minuet unless all of you mess up, including you. Factor in its endgame so the killer will most likely be protecting the hook, why are you going down so quickly? Your team might be bad, but why are you going down quickly? Are you joining them in their bad decisions?
Unless you are all swarming the killer or grouping up with NoED active (which is a really bad move) this should not be happening. If they aren't protecting the hook then the save is available and that means they're chasing which uses up a lot of time you can use to find the totem. If you're team is getting bodied by NoED you can cleanse it, then go help them, or you can leave.
If you're getting bodied consistently then it might not be only your team that's causing it and you may need to take more measures to work against it.
5) "You also don't seem to be accounting for the time spent looking for said totems and how long it can take traversing some maps as well. " I am, I do it just fine, its not a problem on most maps. Some maps sure, but that's jut getting unlucky and a problem with map design not the perk. If it was a perk problem it be a problem on every map since it wouldn't matter, the problem is the perk. On those maps, you check what you think you have time for, if you don't find it in those checks, you leave. Oh well got unlucky with the map. That's just part of DBD.
You have enough time to find the totem in most cases. Unless you are actually unironically saying doing one totem takes too long.
6) Ah yes, saying I was acting like a "totem master" was an accurate read when specifically I mentioned in what you replied to that I had a personal choice of a totem perk. I never said I know all the spots. Or maybe you mean the one where you assumed (also incorrectly) that I don't have a lot of experience with totem spawns? I know a good amount of the spawns. It was not accurate at all.
I'm not a master but I'd say I'm at least decent, and "need" is a strong word. I don't need the perk in most of my games, but I bring it for the ones I don't know that well and to cut down search time. I never said I need the perk because I can't find totems at all without it, I said I use it and it helps and its my personal choice of perk. I said I don't know enough to go in blind, for me "enough" is all of them or close to it. I said I don't want to memorize every map. I know a lot of spawns just from bumping into them over time, but I'm not going to go out of my way to learn every map in the game. Even on maps where I know the spawns, its a nice speed up since if its in a house on Badham I just have to look at the house and I'll know if the totem is there or not.
Even if you don't believe me, I'm not having a problem with NoED in the majority of my matches. So if you do actually know the spots even better than me, you should have even less problems. But it sounds to me with your complaints of it taking too long and ect., problems I'm (and others) not usually having, that you're not a totem master either, so either bring a map or bring the perks to help you with time if its taking you too long, to help with those maps you don't know well, or you're gonna have to deal with the chance you're gonna get NoED on a map you don't know or is well suited to finding totems.
I was giving solutions to the problem. You can learn all or most the spots, which I also suggested is something you can work on if you want since that is a valid solution. Especially considering the issue in question was specifically "not knowing the spawns". Its not unreasonable to suggest "well start learning the spawns then" or "use tools to help find/learn them" as a solution.
But you don't even need to know the spots well to counter the perk if you use the tools available.
7)"The only reason I would use a totem perk is to do totems fast and at that point I'd just bring a map." Yes, exactly, there's a solution to the time problem you keep saying you're having, like I've been saying. If your own totem finding skills are not enough, which is completely reasonable considering how many maps there are and RNG, bring a perk or map.
You're refusing to use the solutions to your problem and complaining the problem is still there.
8) "it has to do with teammate quality." Then the problem you have, like I said already, is teammates not the perk. Again, bad teams will struggle with everything that requires teamwork. Everything includes 5 totems and getting the teamout during endgame against NoED. We should not balance around bad teams. Even so, you can deal with NoED on your own and get yourself out if they're really that bad. If your team is a lost cause then so be it. You can't fix "bad at the game".
9) "I don't enjoy playing babysitter nor want to do it" Then stop doing it. I don't babysit my solo que teammates since if they're that bad we're losing anyway and if they're not then they don't need me to babysit. I'll help and do my part as a teammate, but I'm not babysitting. If my team is bad and the map is mothers dwelling and there's a NoED, I'll check nearby and maybe a bit further until its clear you won't be saved in time, after that I'm leaving out the gates. I recommend you do the same.
They didn't discount it either. You point is kinda mute.
Like when the say 'survivors' and not soloq vs swf. Which are 2 completely different things.
I'll add more details as to why I believe that they don't mean new survivors I suppose, since that's what you're bringing up to me.
My guess is they didn't discount it because the average player is not a new survivor and no one was talking about new survivors afaik. Unless otherwise stated or hinted at, the assumption is that they are talking about the average survivor, not new ones.
That would make no sense, new survivors struggle with everything because they don't have any experience or knowledge, especially on "day 1". Also, who judges balance based on day 1 survivors? Its an unreasonable assumption to say they were talking about new ones with the statement they gave and the thread up to that point.
You're also specifically saying "you expect new survivors..." as if they mentioned new survivors or there's some reasonable reason to think they were talking about them when there's not. At this point you're putting words in their mouth.
When new survivors are spoken about they are singled out or explicitly stated as they are not the norm.
What have they said to give any indication whatsoever that they were talking about new survivors?
By the same token I could say "No they were talking about really experienced survivors, they have no excuse to not learn the spots." After all they didn't discount them either.
Honestly at this point just ask them if they meant new survivors, rather than make such a large assumption. Us debating what they meant isn't going to solve anything and a waste of time.
I was just pointing out that's very likely not what they meant as that would be out of nowhere and there's no reason to believe that's what they meant, and placing my own response to what you said that in the event that we bring up newer survivors they have access to maps and small game as well so they don't need to know the spots. The same way any survivor player doesn't need to know the spots, they have tools to find the totem(s) for them.
Adding on to that point, I honestly can't take you as making a good faith argument if you're trying to use day 1 players as a measuring stick for balance or expectations with anything for the overall game other than the new player experience.
That’s like saying ‘just stop the survivors doing gens’.
My issue with NOED isn't really the whole 'Do Bones vs Don't' issue. It's a mix of NOED being kinda unfair for Solo Queue, and NOED being an issue for the Killers running it in the fact that it doesn't have enough impact when you're really going to need it.
Solo Queue is already playing at a disadvantage. The fact that their only Totem counters are linked to perks is not cool. (I know it's a change some people praise, but I still advocate for a global totem counter if we're going to push this notion of 'Just do bones'.) To add to it (And this is not an issue with just solo survivor, but it has a larger impact on them), indoor maps have notoriously awful-to-find totems. Mix that with the fact that Survivors don't get a global notification from being exposed, it does feel needlessly rough versus Solos who are already more likely to struggle.
As for Killer, I don't think it's a satisfying perk to run in any capacity. If you play well, NOED doesn't do anything for you and feels like a waste of a perk slot. (Or it just feels like overkill.) If you play poorly, or go against a coordinated team, it feels like it doesn't do enough to help you. If you don't have enough hooks at the point that NOED activates, or can't get the downs fast enough to get good value out of it, then it feels underwhelming. If you're playing against a coordinated team, chances are they've already cleansed the bones, meaning it is, again, a waste of a perk slot, or they're going to find it fast enough for it to not be an issue. (Or just give you that kill and leave.) It doesn't feel satisfying to play with. You're not really getting rewarded for playing well like you would with Devour, and it's not like it's going to actively help you in the middle of the game like Ruin, Retribution, Haunted Grounds, or even Undying would. Sure, it might buy you a little time if they are cleansing bones, but again, in games where you need it, chances are they're going to have the time to do it anyway. Idk, I feel like it's just a perk that is really underwhelming or absolute overkill with absolutely no middle ground, and I think it should be adjusted to be a lot more inline both with other Totem perks, and to make it more satisfying to run.
I'm sorry but your first sentence is 'I guess' and then a paragraph that I started to read, but then realised we were still stuck talking about what kind of survivors.
The 'average survivor'? Define average, what are the units of metric to describe the average? Hours? Escapes?
You then finish with 'very not likely', I honestly wonder why you bothered typing so much to what boils down to anecdotal subjective talking points. I'll even throw in an over analysis of my original statement, while ignoring the fact that all the OP had to do was clarify what they were talking. Rather than your long winded 'I think so'.
Furthermore, as I had referenced previously, soloq vs swf play out vastly differently. So even in that context I'd still laugh at OP statement because it was so limited in scope and provides no context. Even if we discount 'new survivors'.
I don't really like to run hexes because all it takes is one bad totem spawn and its instantly gone for the whole match. When I do run noed, though, I usually do it on slinger for cocky gate snatches.
As I said its just a more detailed explanation behind my thinking, so it was going to be a longer and more thorough. Yes we were talking about what kind of survivors since that's what you brought up to me, as I said. I think we can both agree to move on from that topic.
I had my own separate point that you could have responded to instead before you pivoted from new survivors to swf, so I'm going to assume you have no intention on doing so and move on from that as well.
Yes swf and solo are different, and swf is obviously more effective. If you're having problems with NoED solo I would suggest going after the 1 totem at the end of the game rather than all 5, maybe do a totem or 2 that you happen upon before that to shrink the potential search area. That's what I usually do and I usually get 2-3 before endgame. You can also bring the same tools I brought up before, perks and the map item, especially if you're concerned about maps with harder totem locations and your own totem finding skills are not up to par for those maps.
Doing all 5 totems is one possibility, doing the 1 while its active just like every other hex is another. Its much more viable solo to go for the 1 totem at the end if you don't want to leave your teammates behind. Another choice you have is to leave your teammate(s) behind and just get your own win. Being the one who gets left behind kinda sucks, but that's part of the game in general and could be the best choice for the overall team win.
know when to leave teammies behind lol
NOED is the main hex perk I use. You could also use undying to get at least a little value from other perks.
This guy's points with the killer side of things is exactly why I'm so surprised there's this much whining about NOED in the first place.
Also, I'm in the camp of "if you're so fearful of something that may or may not be in the match, take precautions just in case and bring a build that will help in the worst case scenario". Killers are already always dancing around perks Survivors might not even even have but there's no way of knowing until it activates. DS, BT, and DH are common enough that many higher rank killers just adapt their playstyle in a way where it's as if they already assume every survivor is carrying those perks, survivors should take note of that and do the same if thing if having to deal with it THAT OFTEN. While I do agree that some sort of global Totem counter should def be implemented, in the meantime you do already have multiple options to track totems by just using a perk slot or an item if it's that big of a concern to you.
Even when I'm soloq survivor, so long as I take the right precautions, I can avoid becoming a victim of NOED even without using a perk or item by doing things like being obsevant of where the killer is when the last gen is about to pop, and keeping in mind how the killer has been playing the entire match leading up to the Exit Gates being available.
Literally this. NOED gives you a kill in most cases unless cleansed, and generally only comes into play if the killer lost the match.
It's not even that strong, good survivors know totem spots and will be smart by leaving if the rescue isn't feasible.
Hi. Nurse/Killer main here. I don't hate NOED itself, I hate what NOEDs concept and representation is. It's a crutch to help someone who couldn't do it themselves. There are legit end game perks that are designed around end game. Rancor, Fire Up, Blood Warden. No Way Out, and others. These are perks DESIGNED around trying to play the endgame. Whether they are good or not (they aren't) is irrelevant because the design is sound.
NOED is just lazy and a reward for FAILING. As much as I hate adrenaline and think it needs to be nerfed, its design is sound. Its a risk perk that rewards you for SUCCEEDING. NOED just trains newer killers to not worry about the actual macro of the game, just wait for end game and get your one free kill that NOED gives you and move on. It doesn't address the higher problem of the game, which is its inherent imbalance, and map wackery.
how did the killer lose the match? isnt the match over when ALL FOUR survivors exit or are dead or some combo thereof? since when did the devs change the game to be over when all 5 gens get repaired?
what patch added that soon as all 5 gens are repaired game is over and everyone goes to the point screen??