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toolboxes op?

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  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,420

    No, I see what he is saying. 'Use x killer' to counter specific addons doesn't work, because we can't change killers at the match selection screen. 'Use x perk' doesn't work, because smart survivors time their switch to addons so that you can't change perks in time.

    At the very least, survivors shouldn't be able to change addons at the last second. If you change addons, it should automatically 'unready' the killer and allow them to alter their perks.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,876

    I will never argue against locking survivor loadouts earlier so the killer can set theirs accordingly, but 'just bring [perk]' is more of a survivor problem than a killer one, between DS, BT, UB, IW and DetHunch/SG.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,420

    Eh. Except that 'just bring x perk' isn't really a survivor issue, because:

    • Survivors have far more options between universally 'good' perks than killers do (killers actually have several perks that are flat-out worse than an empty slot, or are so niche that neither you nor the survivors are likely to even be aware that it's active. See: Distressing, Predator, about 2/3 of hexes). Plus, most of the genuinely 'bad' survivor perks are getting buffed shortly, while almost none of the bad killer perks are.
    • Killers see pretty constant nerfs to addons as things stand, some of them honestly baffling (Ghostface is the most recent example).
    • There is no killer perk that can stop a 2-3 gen pop within the first 2 minutes of a game, if the enemy are all running good toolboxes and you aren't extremely lucky early. On the other hand, there is a survivor perk to counter nearly every killer perk - and you have 12 perks to play with in a team, while killers are stuck at 4.
    • About half of these perks are to counter a specific killer playstyle (ie. facecamping/tunnelling/slugging) and BHVR have already said that they will be taking specific steps to prevent facecamping in the near future.
  • Kira4EvrKira4Evr Member Posts: 1,643

    I don't think Toolboxes are OP. But BNP however, oh god. I don't even want to talk about them xd

    However. I think Medkits are stronger, same with keys

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,876

    Survivors have far more options between universally 'good' perks than killers do (killers actually have several perks that are flat-out worse than an empty slot, or are so niche that neither you nor the survivors are likely to even be aware that it's active. See: Distressing, Predator, about 2/3 of hexes). Plus, most of the genuinely 'bad' survivor perks are getting buffed shortly, while almost none of the bad killer perks are.

    I doubt that. Killers have far more build variety, and I think the average killer perk is a safer pick than the average survivor perk. There's a ton of far more niche survivor perks and some that have completely negligible benefits. And in terms of 'empty slots are better', survivors have the absolute king of kill-me-now perks: No Mither. And Autodidact doesn't exactly help the survivors, either.

    And there's an equal number of killer perk buffs as survivor perk buffs, IIRC.

    Killers see pretty constant nerfs to addons as things stand, some of them honestly baffling (Ghostface is the most recent example).

    Killers see a ton of balance changes in general, including buffs. They've just got way more variables to tinker with than survivors do. Keep in mind that these add-ons are generally more impactful than survivor item add-ons, even at the highest tier.

    There is no killer perk that can stop a 2-3 gen pop within the first 2 minutes of a game, if the enemy are all running good toolboxes and you aren't extremely lucky early. On the other hand, there is a survivor perk to counter nearly every killer perk - and you have 12 perks to play with in a team, while killers are stuck at 4.

    Corrupt Intervention is a meta perk precisely because it can stop a 2-3 gen pop in the first 2 minutes of the game. And yeah, fully kitted out survivors are stronger than survivors without kits. Same with killers that slap on high end add-ons. Fanged Pinhead is leagues above normal Pinhead for example.

    Yes, the survivors have more perks, but those perks only affect themselves in most cases, while the killer's impact all survivors. It's not a blunt numerical comparison of '16 vs 4'.

    About half of these perks are to counter a specific killer playstyle (ie. facecamping/tunnelling/slugging) and BHVR have already said that they will be taking specific steps to prevent facecamping in the near future.

    Yes. And then DS still has to stay to counter tunnelling and UB has to stay for slugging. And we don't even know if they'll figure something out, so until facecamping is solved, BT is staying as well. And until NOED gets a rework, DetHunch/Small Game is practically mandatory too. The Spirit changes might ease off the requirement of Iron Will, but there's no guarantee.

    Point is that if a survivor wants to be able to play when the killer decided otherwise, they need that bunch of perks with no exception. The closest you can argue for the killer side is that gen slowdown perks are mandatory, but even then there's a large assortment of options available for the killer to choose from. Far more so than the four survivor perks. Pop, Ruin, Corrupt Intervention, Thrilling Tremors, Eruption, Surge, they're all decent picks for slowdown and you can mix-and-match as much as you like. And generally, people will take one or two slow-down perks leaving the other two slots open for anything the killer wants.

    There's more complaints about a stale survivor meta than killer meta for a reason.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,420

    Not sure how to break up quotes like that, but going point by point:

    • Otz recently did a 'ranking all perks' video. It was quite an eye opener, especially factoring in the upcoming changes/buffs to survivor perks. And no, no there isn't.
    • I'd say No Mither is far better than Distressing. At least it has some sort of gameplay benefits. All Distressing does is nerf you for a paltry BP gain.
    • Very seldom do killers get meaningful buffs (the last one I can think of was Wraith, and he's being nerfed now, despite being mid-tier at best). Again, look at Clown and Trapper.
    • Yes, CI is frustratingly compulsory on certain killers, far more so than any perk is required on survivors. That's...sort of my point. And even then, you can get RNGed on some maps (saw a game recently where a top ranked killer...some British guy? lost 2 gens in under a minute, despite CI. Hawkins, if I recall.
    • No, it's not a blunt 16v4 comparison, and that's not what I'm saying. I will say though that, when you factor in SWFs, it can very much play out like that. Which is why OoO was such a problem for so long. At the very least, it gives you way more wiggle room to bring different perks, or cover multiple bases (you only really need 1 small game, and one spine chill if you are sharing info).
    • Shrug. They said they had something that they would be introducing to stop facecamping, so it's not really a concern. Slugging is, in and of itself, required to counter other perks/strategies and can easily backfire due to 'pick up deadzones' (between certain doodads on the farm maps for example, or under certain hooks). There's nothing wrong with slugging, and the best counter to it will always be teamwork.
    • There is no 'large assortment' of gen regression perks. There's Ruin, Pop, Surge (on some killers) and then mostly pointless options like Overcharge. TT isn't a regression perk and Eruption is awful.
    • Most of the complaints about the stale survivor meta are coming from killers, as it forces a very tedious meta from killers too.
  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,876

    I'd say No Mither is far better than Distressing. At least it has some sort of gameplay benefits. All Distressing does is nerf you for a paltry BP gain.

    An increased terror radius is not a nerf. I once played on a Hawkins against a Doctor with a maxed out terrror radius, it effectively disabled the mechanism because you were -always- in his terror radius, so you had no early warning if he was coming for you.

    If survivors bolt at the first sign of a terror radius, then a larger terror radius makes them waste more time. A larger terror radius is more difficult to read, making them less likely to accurately predict your movement. A larger terror radius makes survivors recalculate when they should try and hide.

    And there's killer perks that synergise with it, too. Unnerving Presence, Coulrophobia, and more importantly, Infectious Fright and Starstruck.

    Yes, you could argue that No Mither can be used with Resilience and This Is Not Happening, but that's nowhere near enough compensation for the fact that you are permanently exposed. Especially against, for example, stealth killers. And it's certainly a worse combo than Distressing - Infectious Fright.

    Very seldom do killers get meaningful buffs (the last one I can think of was Wraith, and he's being nerfed now, despite being mid-tier at best). Again, look at Clown and Trapper.

    We very rarely get balance-focused patches in general, but saying that killers seldom get buffs is meaningless without context.

    Yes, CI is frustratingly compulsory on certain killers, far more so than any perk is required on survivors. That's...sort of my point. And even then, you can get RNGed on some maps (saw a game recently where a top ranked killer...some British guy? lost 2 gens in under a minute, despite CI. Hawkins, if I recall.

    CI isn't the most compulsory perk in the game, as it didn't rank top 3 for killer perks. It was bested by NOED, Ruin and BBQ & Chili, so clearly, CI is not a top pick for killers. It's certainly a popular one, but it has plenty of competition, which is exactly the point.

    No, it's not a blunt 16v4 comparison, and that's not what I'm saying. I will say though that, when you factor in SWFs, it can very much play out like that. Which is why OoO was such a problem for so long. At the very least, it gives you way more wiggle room to bring different perks, or cover multiple bases (you only really need 1 small game, and one spine chill if you are sharing info).

    That's the solo/swiffer divide, and it's a major problem. But that doesn't get fixed by balancing for Swiffers, because then solos can practically not play the game anymore.

    They said they had something that they would be introducing to stop facecamping, so it's not really a concern. Slugging is, in and of itself, required to counter other perks/strategies and can easily backfire due to 'pick up deadzones' (between certain doodads on the farm maps for example, or under certain hooks). There's nothing wrong with slugging, and the best counter to it will always be teamwork.

    Yes, they were testing something, and it was in a very early prototype. It's not likely that it'll reach full release, and just because something is potentially being worked on doesn't mean it's not a concern. Facecamping is the biggest problem this game faces, as it hinders further development in other areas. Genrushing cannot be addressed as long as facecamping is an option, since any nerf to the former is an indirect buff to the latter. And you don't want to encourage killers to facecamp.

    The best counter to slugging is the opposite of teamwork. People sticking together is what makes slugging possible, the team is supposed to split up, not work together. And while slugging is the least of the unholy trinity of game-breakers, it's still atrocious for gameplay.

    Also... 'pick up deadzones'? The only one I can think of is the preschool basement. Everywhere else, there's at least three hooks in range, even with hook distance offerings.

    There is no 'large assortment' of gen regression perks. There's Ruin, Pop, Surge (on some killers) and then mostly pointless options like Overcharge. TT isn't a regression perk and Eruption is awful.

    I didn't say 'gen regression'. I said gen slowdown. You don't need to regress gens, you need to slow them down. Locking gens up is another form of gen slowdown, and that's what Thrilling Tremors is for, or Deadlock, or Corrupt Intervention.

    Most of the complaints about the stale survivor meta are coming from killers, as it forces a very tedious meta from killers too.

    They are. Doesn't change anything. Survivor meta's more stale than killer meta.


    (The way I break up quotes is with the .> symbol.)

  • SnowbawlzzzSnowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,121

    There is no penalty for dashboarding out of the game and reloading if they last-second switch to 4 medkits

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