Home Dead by Daylight Forums Polls

Should freddy be reverted

2

Comments

  • BadonkadonkBadonkadonk Member Posts: 79

    Old Freddy was not fun to play as or against. People are way too nostalgic if they actually want that back, because he essentially had little to no actual pressure that even basic m1 killers would have.

    Freddy was boring then and he's boring now. A mix of the two could be cool though maybe.

  • ShapedShaped Member Posts: 5,323

    Monto is kinda casual tbh, more of the entertainer than serious player. He did a lot of these kind of videos. I wouldn't take it too seriously from a single Freddy match. You have to take into account a caliber of survivors also.

    As much as I miss old Freddy, he is not fit for the current game if they don't buff him, and like I said previously he was definitely weak even back then.

    I don't like how weak the current Freddy is but at least you have something. Also endgame with old Freddy was basically nonexistant in most cases considering you had to waste time putting people into sleep before you hit them. It was painful.


    It is just my opinion btw I am not stating anything as a fact.

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981

    i would like to see how the devs would reimplement old freddy

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,709

    That is why I insist on his return with a few buffs and QoL improvements.

    When it comes to Old Freddy, I dare say that no one is as devoted and dedicated as I am. I assure you it would be enough.

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981
    edited November 2021

    I mean slowdown would be a ######### to deal with in the current meta.

    Freddy would likely have a pretty strong prescence.

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,709

    A 40 % slowdown that can be removed entirely in less than a second, in a game that lacks Old Ruin and Old Dying Light, where the gen rush is supposedly a constant threat?

    Hardly a problem.

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981
    edited November 2021

    I wish I played in the older patches.

    Everything seemed so much better.

    Gens taking up to 2x longer would be much better than whatever these snare/pallets are tho

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,709

    Precisely.

    That is why I make it my mission to bring my dear main back.

    And other things too, if I can :)

  • ShapedShaped Member Posts: 5,323

    I liked the old ruin slowdown on less mobile killers. Most will hate me for this that is why I kinda understand general and I'm not writing anything off before I see it in action.

    I am just against bringing him up exactly like he was before.

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981

    How was old ruin, it was stuff to do with skillchecks right? The information is.. less than helpful.

  • ShapedShaped Member Posts: 5,323

    Yeah. If you didn't hit greats gen regressed.

    I know majority thinks everyone can hit greats majority of the time but that is not true from my observation.

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981

    Thats a nice perk tbh, a pain in the ass for new players though.

  • ShapedShaped Member Posts: 5,323
    edited November 2021

    Yeah it wasn't too pleasant. When I said bring him back I meant freddy btw.

    I wouldn't bring back old ruin lol. I just think it worked better for me sometimes than the new one on slower killers.

  • SOMENINJANAMESOMENINJANAME Member Posts: 294
    edited November 2021

    Good on you man. I love old Freddy, and if there are people that enjoyed his old self, that is OK.

    Post edited by Rizzo90 on
  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,709
    edited November 2021

    Oh...Thanks for the heads up. Wish I knew about this before writing my response.

    Post edited by Rizzo90 on
  • AurelleAurelle Member Posts: 2,554

    As much as I miss old Freddy, I don't think he would work in current DBD unless they made some tweaks to his power.

  • Seiko300Seiko300 Member Posts: 1,861
    edited November 2021

    A guy that's been playing the game for 5 years since 2016 that's who I think I am. I have every right of experience to voice my opinion and call out others for what I think is a foolish one.

    Old Freddy excelled at absolutely nothing except slowdown, by all standards his power wasn't all that incredibly unique to begin with, and the playstyle that he encouraged wasn't fun to play as a killer and it especially wasn't fun to play against as survivors. Essentially slowing down the progress of generators to the point of creating a near stalemate but without actually gaining any ground or applying any significant pressure that would get the killer any closer to his goals of 12 hooking or 4 kills. Old Freddy was anything but fun, he was obnoxious, and the very definition of a passive killer whose entire kit operated passively. The extremely narrow amount of wiggle room where a Freddy main could hone their skills to be better through little tricks like mindgaming your intermittent view was so incredibly niche, it's beyond me that these small things somehow convinced people Freddy was anywhere close to even a mediocre killer.

    And as far as majority goes let me remind that it was the majority of the playerbase at the time that pushed long and hard for two full years for Freddy's extensive rework. If the devs didn't see a monumental community effort to revamp his entire power they wouldn't have raised a finger to change him, because the chapter had already been out for two whole years by the time his rework came in Patch 3.1.0 and they had already made money off the sales for the chapter. But they saw the sheer amount of people who were making all the right points with all the evidence to back up their claims and it actually happened.

    You want to talk about a majority that could push to create change? That was a majority which created change. Not this piddly 48% - 40% between Yes / Probably and No / Probably not. (As of writing).

    "We want our killer back" Bah.

    All I see is a loud minority equipped with their rose tinted glasses and whispering sweet nothings about a past that never even existed.


    Again- that coffin was SEALED away, nailed shut, and buried 60 feet under ground in solid concrete. Even if you could argue that it was worth the time to reverse the change, it wouldn't matter. It Is. Never. Going. To. Happen. Ever.

    And again, I'm glad for it.

    That's not true!

    I also write long and overthought responses in the lore section. Sometimes, not as frequent though, lore doesn't get as much interesting activity going on community wise.

    That aside, I'm glad you've been reading my responses at least 😁


    Also, I find it incredibly ironic you're introducing him to "the guy that's always on the forums and is always negative" when you're talking to a guy who has literally thousands more posts on the forums than I do. I checked- I've almost got a third of his total so far.

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,709

    You do have every right to voice your opinion, but never to insult someone else's. Calling a different opinion "foolish" merely because it doesn't align with your own is not only disrespectful, but also childish. And when it comes to basic respect, your alleged longevity in DBD doesn't matter in the slightest.

    So I ask you again: who do you think you are to call our pleas "foolish"?

    Now, I don't understand how a supposedly veteran player did not see strength that was right before him. Old Freddy excelled in control, not simply slowdown. Yes, this particular effect was strong, but it never gave you free victories, nor was it his only advantage. Your comment about his uniqueness is just plain wrong and unrealistic: even people who, somehow, enjoy his current power admit that his old self was the most unique character DBD has ever released. Heck, if you want a popular example there is Otzdarva, who said it himself. Now, the idea with Freddy was to play him in a less aggressive manner, knowing when to chase and drop chases, making use of his aura reading and Dream Transition mindgames to take advantage of survivor's mistakes and controlling the game in general. If your only focus was the supposed "stalemate", then it is obvious that you would see him as a weaker killer, where in reality he was not.

    And, now we get to this "majority" that you speak of. I don't doubt for one second that you saw a few players wrongly ask for a full rework. I saw it too...once. One player in a god forsaken Discord server that had less than 10 hours of gameplay...Still, most reasonable people that did complain about Freddy asked for buffs and QoL improvements, never a full rework. And it is safe to say that people who, for some reason, asked for a full rework regretted their decision. The absolute majority of the community prefers Old Freddy over...whatever the hell current Freddy is. This poll is not enough for you?

    Then see it for yourself. Check the comments, support, upvotes...judge by any metric. People do want him back.

    Now, do you know why the devs reworked him? No you don't. Just like you don't know why did they nerf Billy, why did they implement Patch 1.9.2 in the past, why did they decide against reverting the UI Change, why did they tried to nerf Rat Liver, why did they nerfed the Twins, why did they nerf Deathslinger...and this dumb list goes on. No one knows why did BHVR made bad decisions, and his rework is one of them.

    Do you know what I see?

    I see the majority of the community united for a righteous cause, demanding the devs to return what was once taken. To revert a bad change that never took Old Freddy mains, such as myself, into consideration. I see people sharing memories of an exciting past, and hopes for the future of this killer.

    Perhaps this topic is dead for you. But then again, I already the know the nature of your comments and what you do. Discussing this is, more likely than not, pointless. I will, however, leave a final message that I will never stop. I will mention him at every opportunity, call for his return whenever I can.

    And I will have my killer back.

    Now, farewell.

  • glitchboiglitchboi Member Posts: 5,416

    I love how you actually added evidence to your comment to support your claim. I knew my poll would come in clutch someday! You dropped this btw 👑

  • Bennett_They1ThemBennett_They1Them Member Posts: 2,513

    the black box should either do this as an addon, or get a big buff.

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,709

    Well, I uhh...added the truth. Your poll shows it pretty well!

    And hey, thanks for the crown.

  • Seiko300Seiko300 Member Posts: 1,861
    edited November 2021

    Truth

    It's true, experience doesn't specifically denote whether you're right about something. Although it probably does give you an edge in terms of foundational knowledge in most cases- for example I believe it's ridiculous for people that have never actually experienced old Freddy for some reason are among the number of forum users voting to have that version of him back. That support doesn't seem dubious or misplaced to you in the slightest?

    Equally though, if we're going to talk about actual evidence in regards to truth- I would point out that numbers (majority / minority) don't make something true either. You can cite any number of people in any number of circumstances to find that little piece of wisdom is also true, a basic examples: a majority of people throughout the first half of the 20th century didn't believe smoking / nicotine was related to lung cancer (or any negative ailments) until medical studies throughout the 50's and 60's came out. Or perhaps even more simple: a majority of children believe in Santa Claus.

    These are perfect examples to say that even if you had a majority, that wouldn't necessarily make you right. I believe in philosophy they call this "Argumentum ad populum" or the Appeal to Popularity / Appeal to Numbers fallacy. So you can throw as many polls my way as you want, it all falls under the same pretense- it doesn't somehow immediately make the return of old Freddy a good thing.



    "Foolish"

    As for this whole fixation on my use of the word "foolish" I think you're taking it far too seriously. Whenever I'm on the forums I make it a point to criticize ideas, not people, I frankly don't know anyone here personally and equally nobody here knows me personally. I have no right to make any personal judgements nor does anyone else, unlike @SOMENINJANAME for example, who felt personally obligated to throw some libel my way, not that it had any particular relevance to the thread.

    So when I say foolish, foolhardy, stupid, or any number of adjectives to that effect- they are purely in regards to an idea, notion, or suggestion. This idea that you can't call somebody out on a dumb idea because that's "not nice" or "there are no dumb ideas" is ludicrous. If I said right now that survivors should run at a base speed of 120% and have 3 health states instead of two, I would hope that you would call me out and say that's absolutely ######### absurd- and rightfully so!


    "Now do you know why the devs reworked him?"

    I feel like this is a very weird misdirect. I think you know exactly why the devs reworked him, I think you know that I know, we all for the most part know exactly why, and restating so almost feels redundant. To claim that it was some bold, out of the blue change that came out of nowhere that nobody wanted except some obscure guy with less than 10 hours, is well.. bold to say the least.

    But I wanted to indulge you in that answer and before I go any further I want you to please appreciate just how long it took me to find this. You'd think it'd be easy, but apparently all of Dead by Daylight's dev / community updates are just wiped from existence, and their official Youtube Channel was extremely difficult to navigate since apparently you can't scroll down to anything posted more than 5 months ago. Took me upwards of 30 minutes of diving around the forums, google, twitch, and youtube, but I finally found something that finally satisfies me so I hope it satisfies you as well. Here is your answer:

    The Official Dead by Daylight Freddy Rework Livestream. Posted on Jul. 4, 2019, either the same day or just before the PTB came out for people to test the rework changes. Before this, in the 2nd video, The rework itself was actually introduced in the 3rd year anniversary livestream which saw the announcement Chapter XII: Ghostface, and this was posted on May 31st of 2019. In both videos, Stefan Horvath (Game Designer) lays it out in plain terms exactly why they were making these changes.

    The response is consistent across both videos (and in both I have the URL linked to the specific time that this question of why was addressed) although he goes slightly more in depth in the follow up video (the first link). He cites "frustrations" amongst the playerbase specifically in regards to Freddy. This is what he says exactly:

    "Ultimately, there was some frustrations playing as and against the nightmare, which Thierry and I, as well as other members of the team have tried to work towards alleviating- by addressing the power and changing things that were not as fun." -Stefan Horvath

    You cannot get any more explicit than this @GeneralV there is no beating around the bush here whatsoever. You can't equate the Freddy rework to the mysterious on the fly changes that DBD makes out of the blue, to something that required as detailed and as comprehensive an effort as the Freddy rework. Great changes require great inciting incidents and there is simply no way you can say that the devs went out of their way, to spend time and money, creating a brand new fundamentally different power, which essentially restructured the killer from the ground up and really only retained one aspect from the original killer.

    I mean seriously, your analogy is that creating a brand new killer, for no extra money whatsoever because the chapter had already been released, is somehow the same as when they decided to change Rat Liver. An Add-on. Or why they nerfed twins / deathslinger. Please tell me how these things are equatable, I desperately want to know. I'm not being sarcastic here, I genuinely want to know your thought process, and the line of logic that takes you from Rat Liver -> to full blown Killer release for no extra money. Because that is what happened to Freddy, he became a brand new killer, and nothing like this has ever happened in the history of the game before then, or since.


    Actual arguments that relate to freddy

    Finally I left the most quality part of your post for last. The actual argument / substance which I can address, starting with "Old Freddy excelled in control" this was the only bit of your post that I found had substance, although it was interspersed with statements like "just plain wrong" which isn't an argument. (Again, not a knock on you- but on the arguments you presented, let's stay focused here).

    Yes. Freddy excelled in control, but this was really it. Again, he sacrificed everything for that control, map mobility, chase potential, he was made even weaker than most killers because he famously couldn't attack survivors for seven seconds.

    Now you point out that all this required on the part of the player was to play Freddy in different ways, much like how you wouldn't play Nurse in the same way you play any other killer. However, I rebuttle by saying that even against a Freddy playing in the way that Freddy "was supposed to be played" was uninspired, and could easily be dealt with. Primarily this basically involved Freddy bouncing around between targets, pulling one person into the dream world and then going to another generator, pulling another in, and then returning to the first person who is caught off guard pressuring them rinse and repeat....

    I say this isn't unique because it's not like the whole Guerrilla warfare technique isn't something killers do already. In fact this is the strategy most Stealth killers use nowadays and how you'll find most Wraith players at the high level will play. A Wraith will catch someone off guard, hit them, cloak, run off and hit somebody else, cloak again and return to the first guy and swoop in for the down. Old Freddy might have been the predecessor for this strategy, but it's no hidden secret amongst the playerbase now, and again- you'll find most Wraith's, Ghostface's, as well as just killers in general hitting somebody and then leaving them to apply pressure on another segment of the map.

    And for Freddy, this strategy wasn't always a working one, because if you left somebody alone on a generator and went off to pressure somebody else, they had 7 entire seconds and then some to have RNG throw them a random skillcheck which they could easily fail, and force Freddy to redo the cycle all over again. This was something you could not do anything to change, and I would think that a proposed Freddy main would remember that.

    Freddy wasn't unique, and I maintain that opinion. He was an M1 killer without a single chase tool, and had a permanent passive slowdown and aura reading on all survivors affected by his power. But the one thing that WAS unique about Freddy, was the dream world- and notice that they KEPT that mechanic when they reworked Freddy! In fact, it was the ONE thing they kept from his old base kit, the invisibility and intermittent visibility is still present in his kit today.


    Crusaders

    All this talk about "a righteous cause" and "demanding to return what was stolen" really only further cements my perspective that you're romanticizing this whole affair about Freddy, and looking at this topic through biased, rose tinted glasses. I have no doubt that to your "majority" these powerful and rousing words of inspiration are quite the call they can rally around!

    But they do nothing for your argument. Certainly they do nothing to convince me that your opinion is anything other than "foolish" in this matter- and again to say for a third time, I do this to criticize constructively, not out of malice. Unlike some people in this thread, who seek to vilify those with opinions that differ from theirs, the barbarians.


    So! I will meet your challenge, because I am equally firm in my own belief that this is an absolutely atrocious idea. I will myself, leave a final message that I will never stop. I will continue to criticize this wild and unfounded notion at every opportunity, and call the of old Freddy a blasphemous notion that stands against progress, for it is time to look to the future- to better and brighter ideas that aren't blinded by nostalgia or steeped in controversy.

    And I will make sure, that for the sake of my fellow players whether they know better or not, Old Freddy Stays dead.

    Even if that makes me a villain to some.

    Now, farewell.

    TL;DR

    • Agrumentum ad Populum - Appeal to Popularity / Appeal to Numbers is a fallacy. Even if you had a majority (which I argue against) it does not mean you are correct- in this case, it does not mean that bringing old Freddy back is a right decision or a good thing.
    • I call ideas foolish because they are. I seek to criticize ideas, not people, and ideas that are deserving of criticism should be met with it, even if people don't like hearing it.
    • We know exactly why the devs reworked him, and this isn't a secret. You're basically asking me to restate something I've already said, but I took a painstaking amount of time to find official statements from the dev team answering your question. Citing community "frustrations" with Freddy's old power that made him unfun to both play as, and against.
    • Freddy was a weak killer who's margin for improvement had very little to do with how capable a Freddy you were, and more to do with how poorly prepared a survivor team was against a Freddy. Freddy's only benefit was his control and his slowdown, but lacked so severly in every other category that any other killer on the roster was a better pick than him at the time. There was little reason to pick him over any other killer in the roster.
    • Freddy wasn't a unique killer. He was an M1 killer with a slowdown power and that is all- it probably took more thought and creativity to create the Twins than it did to make 2018 Freddy. His one redeeming quality was the interesting "dream world" addition which resulted in a visual mechanic where he was either invisible or could be intermittently seen before coming into full view. You'll notice that the one redeeming quality- was KEPT in the new modern version of Freddy.
    • Romanticizing your argument and recommitting to it without actually having contributed much any substance is not good for any argument. Reaffirming your claim is not an argument, and it shows more of how lacking you are in terms of substantive points to debate with, rather than bolstering the strength of your rhetoric.
    • Bonus point: There is more that I could have talked about! However you said this would be your last post, so I have decided not to expend the effort on discussing how an old Freddy would absolutely not survive in today's modern meta of Dead by Daylight, or how new Freddy actually does a better job of representing the unique aspects of Freddy from the films than old Freddy does- points that lacked context in this discussion.
    • Bonus bonus point: I FOUND the video where the devs said they wouldn't keep both old freddy and new freddy / have old freddy make a return! Here it is, albeit it's slightly more open ended than I gave it credit for, but given they almost always say "never say never" to some degree- the point still stands that this is a deconfirm and would never happen in all but the unlikeliest of scenarios.


    NOTE:

    If anybody responds to this post with something that I have already addressed because they decided to only read the TL;DR, I am only going to refer to them back to this main post.

    EDIT:

    It's like you guys think I'm not going to respond or something 😂 😈

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981
  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981
    edited November 2021


    "And as far as majority goes let me remind that it was the majority of the playerbase at the time that pushed long and hard for two full years for Freddy's extensive rework. If the devs didn't see a monumental community effort to revamp his entire power they wouldn't have raised a finger to change him, because the chapter had already been out for two whole years by the time his rework came in Patch 3.1.0 and they had already made money off the sales for the chapter. But they saw the sheer amount of people who were making all the right points with all the evidence to back up their claims and it actually happened."


    "These are perfect examples to say that even if you had a majority, that wouldn't necessarily make you right. I believe in philosophy they call this "Argumentum ad populum" or the Appeal to Popularity / Appeal to Numbers fallacy. So you can throw as many polls my way as you want, it all falls under the same pretense- it doesn't somehow immediately make the return of old Freddy a good thing."


    I see a contradiction, though

  • Nathan13Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,066
    edited November 2021
  • Seiko300Seiko300 Member Posts: 1,861
    edited November 2021

    It's actually not a full inconsistency / contradiction because you'll notice in that first quote I never claimed that this was the correct thing to do. More accurately: I never said that because the majority at the time wanted those changes, that automatically made those changes the right thing to do.

    In fact you'll see at the bottom there I addressed that population was "making all the right points with all the [right] evidence to back up their claims" so my justification immediately leans toward the rhetoric that was being used rather than simply the sheer numbers, a mistake @GeneralV fell into. To supplement this, I'd say I've never seen arguments against modern Freddy that are as justifiable as the arguments against old Freddy 2-3 years ago.

    Although yes, I can see how you might read it as implied, given my stance. Although I can assure that is a misrepresentation of what I meant, aside from the previous point- it's also important to remember I was using "Majority" in a different context that was less argumentative, and more factual. It is a point of historic fact not up for debate or contention because this actually happened, the changes went through, and if they hadn't we wouldn't be talking about it. It is a factual statement that a majority of the community led the charge to incite changes to Freddy's base kit which compelled to developers to respond- and looking not only at the fact that they decided to respond at all but to the degree that they responded is very telling on the quality of those community requests at the time. People had Freddy figured out, it was common knowledge what he lacked, what his weaknesses were, what made people frustrated, and the developers responded in kind.

    The same way, for example, people had DS figured out. We knew exactly what the problems with DS were, what insane advantages the perk provided which facilitated a much more aggressive playstyle killers couldn't do anything about, what made people frustrated, and the developers responded in kind. It took a lot of proper feedback and thorough investigation on the part of the community to make those changes a reality, but they happened precisely because of that thorough feedback and proper investigation. Something that I see lacking in this loud chunk of the playerbase that really talk more through nostalgia and less because of pressing issues regarding Freddy today.

    It was a nice little distraction. 🙂


    Although thank you for recognizing it takes more thought and energy to put that post together than what some others have been posting on this thread! Always appreciate the praise and acclamation 😁

  • Tr1nityTr1nity Member Posts: 4,981
  • VolantConch1719VolantConch1719 Member Posts: 1,141

    I'll preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I loved playing old Freddy. He was either number 4 or 5 among my mains (can't remember where I placed Pig), was pretty damn good with him, and I hate playing new Freddy (he is so boring).

    Having said that, old Freddy was one of the worst designed Killers in the entire history of the game. He was a Killer that couldn't hit Survivors for an entire seven seconds after hitting them with his power, leaving him powerless while watching that generator getting completed in his face (hell, I've had a Freddy sleep me, accidently failed a skill check, and by the time he realized I wasn't falling asleep and put me back for the 7 seconds, I had the gen done and was already out the building).

    He was a Killer countered by the Survivors playing badly (the amount of times Survivors would just stand on the other side of a pallet and self-care to fail a skill check while you couldn't do anything about it is laughable in how frequent it was).

    On the flip side, he was also COMPLETELY invisible to Survivors. You could hear he was coming, but you had no idea where to go to get away from him, since he could either be directly in front of your path or on the complete opposite end of it.

    Again, I enjoyed him, but I'm not so blinded by nostalgia like a certain someone is to think he was even remotely well-designed. The new Freddy has his problems, but he is well designed by comparison.

Sign In or Register to comment.