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Noed needs a rework



  • MylaMyla Member Posts: 1,551

    Player Solo Q almost my entire dbd experience and I hate hand holding. Either do bones or survivors just go look for NOED when someone gets hit.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,872

    Imma be blunt: No, I don't.

    Because in the vast majority of cases, the effort invested into 'doing bones' is not actually going to counter NOED. You're more likely to make NOED stronger than to counter it by doing bones.

    This is as someone who runs DetHunch most of the time: Doing bones does NOT work, unless your teammates are carrying.

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,507

    I never said you have to run small game or any totem finding perk, but if you are annoyed by it then you have the option to run it.

    Don't complain about a killer perk that can easily be countered but you just don't want to do it.

    Btw there is also an item to find totems easily, it's called a map.

    You don't have to switch a perk for it and if you bring the rainbow map you can even show it to your team.

    Taa daa....... problem solved.

    If you think you get terrible matches by not running certain perks as survivor, than you have to adjust your playstyle maybe? 😉

    Not saying you play bad, but you probably play the way you do as with the perks you always use.

    Learn and adept, it's not that difficult and noed is so easy to counter.

    And yes even in soloq, i know what I'm talking about as i only play solo and only on rare occasions i get hit by it.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,872

    You know the whole 'swiffer is OP' thing?

    Part of the reason is because of things like NOED, severely hurting solo queue while being mostly inert in Swiffer queue. It's not an isolated problem, it's affected more than just its own little segment.

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,507

    Think ghostface gave a good comment about it.

    But the fun thing is that when a survivor is told to just do bones (which they should as it's a secondary objective), they get pissed by it for being told that.

    But with boons i see survivors say the exact same thing, and boons are even stronger than hexes, as it can completely remove auras, remove scratchmarks, faster healing or even healing without items, and then you get that new boon that gives unlimited unbreakable.

    But sure let the killers just do bones 😂

  • glitchboiglitchboi Member Posts: 5,408

    I mean, I try to do at least one totem in most of my games, but I guess I don't want to cleanse totems apparently.

    It's also map design with their totem spawns that can mess you up. If all survivors don't do a single totem at all, then sure, it's a bad play on their end, but there's no helping for survivors that did at least less than 5 totems.

    You can't really escape if the NOED totem is in a really weird spot, and if you get downed, your fate is likely sealed, there's no saving yourself unless the survivors somehow find the totem. Most survivors would just leave, which is the better option, but it's still unfair when you get killed. I don't mind it, but it still gave the killer an unfair kill.

  • Mert_MKMert_MK Member Posts: 631

    Have fun cleansing all 5 totems on garbage maps like RPD and Midwich where by the time you have found all the killer has already won the game.

  • VikingDragonXiiVikingDragonXii Member Posts: 1,166

    I play SoloQ all the time and I have no issues about doing bones.......I have Small Game and have Maps to track where they all are when I'm running around. So with Boons we can take care of NoEd before it spawns. So again DO BONES.

  • BranBran Member Posts: 1,057

    time to do things...or say things that could put some debate topic on blast on this controversial topic.

    1) do bones.

    • this is valid. you can cleanse totems all throughout the trial. you can say it's harder when you have to get gens done, but what's stopping you after the gens are done? clearly your getting the gens done to be killed by noed.
    • even if their hard to find, you can try and other times, aw well...bad luck. it's just how it is.

    2) how is the killer snowballing with noed?

    • how many survivors were left? if 2, i think he did pretty good. if 4, how many are on death hook? did already have a survivor hooked and got another one? did the killer have too much pressure. was it a high tier killer? what's the context?
    • did you guys open the doors, but didn't leave when you had the chance?

    3) does noed give undeserved or free kills?

    • you can say that sure, but what effort was made to prevent this? did anyone look for the totem? did the door get 99'd? did you play accordingly or to the best of your ability?

    4) is noed unfair?

    • aren't all perks unfair? boons gives powerful effects, UB you can pick yourself up, DS gives you a free stun on the killer, adrenaline gives a free health state, even when hooked or on the killers shoulder or trap. there's also other unfair killer perks. that's what they do.

    as i said, i play soloq and have gone against many noeds. I adapt to the situation and try to play accordingly if i can. and trust me i was a sworn DS hater back in the day, but then i eventually decided it was okay-ish and stopped the hate.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,862

    Honestly haven’t really seen any evidence that NOED is more powerful than Haunted Grounds in terms of increasing kill rates. It gets a lot of complaints because “the downs aren’t deserved” according to some survivors but regardless both it and Haunted Grounds typically give one or two downs when triggered. Haunted Grounds does it earlier, which can be good for building momentum, while NOED can act as a hedge to turn a 0-2 k match into a 1-3 k match potentially. Haunted Grounds is a bit more likely to actually go off compared to NOED since survivors typically cleanse hex totems as soon as they find them during the match while NOED doesn’t trigger if either all the totems are cleansed or the generators are never completed. On the other hand NOED gives a slight speed boost so that compensates a bit for that weakness.

    The only issue I’ve heard that seems like it might be a reasonable complaint is how NOED is the only Exposed perk that doesn’t alert survivors they are Exposed. I’d be ok if that was changed, and then if it made NOED too weak giving it a slight improvement to compensate. But either way, in terms of its overall effectiveness, I doubt it’s too powerful or it would have probably been nerfed already considering the extremely vocal group of survivors who complain about it all the time.

  • SakurraSakurra Member Posts: 962
    edited November 2021

    Because I don't agree with you that means nothing. I'm survivor main and I have no problem with noed. No swf as you think. I'm not crying over things like others. This game is very hard as killer anyway and you are asking to nerf killer's perks lol

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 2,970

    I have a question for the people who think that NOED is unfair and that cleansing it/doing bones isn't a reasonable counter to it - and I'll even ignore the other counter of just leaving as soon as you see it pop up for the sake of this question.

    What makes NOED unfair and undeserved where Devour Hope isn't? They both have extremely similar effects- everyone is Exposed, and NOED has the added benefit of increasing your speed because it's only going to activate in the endgame whereas Devour's extra strength is in the mori capability if you build it up further. Both require you to play a portion of the game with only three perks, both can be undone at any time by the survivor...

    Why is NOED the subject of all this debate where Devour isn't?

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,507

    My way of playing as a solo is that i just adept to the other survivors.

    If they go down fast i will try to do either saves and healing, but if someone else is doing that then I'll be on gens.

    I see people on gens?

    Then I'll be either totem hunting (and on a gen if 1 is close to it) or I'll be keeping the killer busy.

    If i see multiple people running around looking for totems (you can tell as they ignore gens) then I'll be on gen duty or what i described in the first option.

    I don't mind dying and will sacrifice myself for the team, but even that doesn't happen a lot.

    Most of the times its a 3 or 4 man escape or i get out alone.

    And yes there are definitely games where i get outplayed and won't escape, but that's just the way of the game.

    If i get hit by noed, i can only laugh about it especially if it's a terrible killer.

    Simply because we as a team just messed up and i was on the receiving end at that point.

    Rpd should just get removed or reworked entirely, that's a map that doesn't fit and belong in dbd at all.

    It's a terrible map for both sides.

    Midwich the spawns are not that terrible if you ask me.

    But perks like counterforce, small game or hunch can help massively with that, or even a map. 😉

  • BranBran Member Posts: 1,057

    i've thought the same thing, but have assumed it's because you know your exposed and you can cleanse it earlier.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 2,970

    You actually don't- Devour doesn't announce itself until you hit someone with three stacks.

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,507

    I completely agree with you on what you just said except for 1 part at the end.

    No perk tells you in advance what it is.

    Hunted ground you only know it if you cleanse it.

    Devour you will only know it if you're hit.

    Ruin only if you have touched a gen.

    Toth only if you touch a totem.

    Undying only if you are near a dull totem.

    So no perk will tell you something in advance until you interact with it, so it does exactly what other hex perks does imo.

  • BranBran Member Posts: 1,057

    hm...ya know...i've always wondered about that, but i guess i decided that it did.

    aw well, atleast the you can cleanse i earlier point stands.

  • Mert_MKMert_MK Member Posts: 631

    Never liked the idea in this game of having to bring a perk to counter something, in this case for something the killer might not even have and you having wasted time you could have spent doing gens and progressing the game which is extremely important against a good killer. I have to disagree about Midwich not having godtier totem spots sometimes, had a NOED huntress on Midwich yesterday and 3 survivors went around the school on both floors and outside to look for it. Absolutely no sign of it. What some others have suggested about removing the surprise effect and letting survivors know that the killer has NOED would make the perk still not perfect but a bit more fair to play against imo.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,862

    Except that the way you trigger Hex: NOED is completing all the gens. That’s the difference between NOED and Devour Hope and say Hex: Haunted Grounds or Hex: Ruin. The triggering event in the former don’t alert the survivor they’ve triggered them, while the latter do.

    I forgot that Devour Hope is also a “surprise” Exposed hit too, though, my bad on that,

  • Nathan13Nathan13 Member Posts: 5,603

    That’s a good point. I guess the way I look at it is survivors feel like they were cheated when they popped all the gens but they got hit with noed. Game is not over until you exit the gate.

  • KaitsjaKaitsja Member Posts: 519

    This. NOED is only unfair in that it's kept a surprise until you get hit, otherwise it has more than enough counterplay. I'm all for a base totem counter, but given that they added that to Small Game, I'm guessing they'd rather not go that route.

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,507

    That's the thing, when a survivor is said to bring a perk to counter something on the killer side then that is a big no no.

    But the killer has to bring constantly perks to counter stuff on the survivor side 🤷🏼‍♂️

    The thing is that people are getting to used to their perks that they don't want or can't adept to a different playstyle with different perks.

    A survivor can easily escape without perks and/or items, so to switch 1 perk for something to find totems easier shouldn't be a problem.

    And tbf you don't even have to use a perk, you can just bring a map to find totems as well 😉

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,507

    Correct they don't tell it immediately, but in a way noed is like devour.

    It's a surprise, but only at the end game.

    The only difference between them is that devour you get by hooking and leaving the hook, while noed you have to let them do all 5 gens and hope they don't cleanse any totems.

    And by that the game is basically already over unless a few or all survivors just mess up.

    The survivors who have a problem with noed should just first start looking at themselves and adjust their playstyle, before complaining about a perk that only activates at the end.

    The killer plays with 3 perks all game against 16 perks, so they should have enough time to take away totems.

    I wonder if bhvr ever decides to put in another secondary objective, how long it take for them to complain about that.

    They can't even cleanse 5 totems as a secondary objective, let alone having another side objective in the game 😂

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    You don't have to, it just helps.

    If you also have inner strength or one of the boon perks, it helps even more. You don't have to bring any perk, perks are there to help with areas of gameplay. You have the option of learning totem spots, or bringing an item. DH is just easier.

  • Mert_MKMert_MK Member Posts: 631

    Well, when i said i'm not fond of the idea of having to bring perks to counter something, by that i was actually speaking for both Survivor and Killer. A balance problem in general tbh.

    Fine, the totem finding problem aside, it's still problematic how much a camper/tunneler can benefit from this perk, survivors lack the time to find and cleanse them when they should be rushing gens in that situation. It's such a cheap playstyle and the killer actually gets rewarded there for playing scummy.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 5,862

    Of course a difference between NOED and Devour though is Devour can be eliminated before activating Exposed conditions by cleansing its hex totem prior to getting 3 tokens, while NOED needs to have all the totems cleansed to prevent it from applying Exposed when the gens are done. So it’s a bit more collective work to stop NOED from being active. It does take longer, though, to activate since it only happens at the end of the match so the survivors do have additional time.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,872

    I'm glad you're bringing that comparison up, because I think it illustrates the issue with NOED quite nicely.

    While Devour Hope is potentially far more devastating, it also has a longer wind-up and requires the killer to put in considerable effort to get the majority of the perk's value. Additionally, it is vulnerable for the entire duration, with a single totem (Or two, if the killer brings Undying) carrying the entire weight of the perk. This means that the counterplay to this perk is to seek and destroy that one totem.

    So to get value out of Devour Hope, the killer has to get multiple hooks and not camp, and then find a survivor after getting sufficient stacks. And to stop Devour Hope, survivors have to find and destroy one totem, which is available from the start of the match.

    Compare to NOED...

    To get value out of NOED, the killer has to find a survivor after the fifth gen is finished. And to stop NOED, survivors have to either find and destroy all five totems before the perk becomes active, or find the hex totem after the perk is active.

    There's a general concept in game design for both effort/reward and risk/reward, and in both categories, NOED has a massively superior ratio compared to Devour Hope. NOED takes zero effort to put into work and has a far lower risk factor due to having way harder counterplay. Both ultimately offer the same kind of benefit, although Devour Hope can snowball on to be even stronger. It doesn't help that Devour Hope is traceable, while NOED is only declared once it's too late to counter it.

    NOED's problem isn't with it being OP, it's just an awfully designed perk.

    The fact that it's undeclared until it's too late adds to the weakness of the counterplay. If you do manage to clear all five bones, and the killer didn't have NOED, that counterplay just ended up making NOED -stronger-, since it did a better job of slowing the survivors down than Thanatophobia probably could've done, and without even occupying a slot.

    And that's another thing that needs to be pointed out: The thread is called 'NOED needs a -rework-', not 'NOED needs a nerf'.

    With NOED's biggest issues just being garbage design, a rework wouldn't necessarily make it weaker. Imagine, for example...

    1. NOED is now baseline.
    2. NOED's effect scales off of totems left standing, as opposed to firing at full force off of any remaining totem. At one totem remaining, the killer gets a 5% movespeed boost. At 2, all survivors are exposed. At 3, the killer breaks pallets 100% faster and windows block after one in-chase fast vault. At 4, the killer can see the aura of all survivors within 16 meters. At 5, the exits are blocked.
    3. Survivors now have a baseline totem counter.

    Aside from the fact that this rework wouldn't work as long as camping is an option (Which is another big problem with NOED, its counterplay is mutually exclusive with that of facecamping), this rework would make NOED stronger, but also make the counterplay WAY more fair. Every totem you break WILL, 100%, without fail, hinder NOED. You won't get punished for breaking four totems and accidentally shunting NOED into a godspawn, you won't have to struggle with the whole 'I can't do it by myself, but I can't tell if any of my teammates will help me' aspect of totem hunting in solo queue, and you won't have to worry that you're breaking totems for absolutely zero pay-off.

    The whole discussion around NOED just got massively bogged down by the dumbass meme of 'do bones', to the point where no one seems to even give this perk a second thought, or even a first one.

    That's also the point of survivors saying 'do bones' to killers. The answer is just as inane, useless and ill-thought-out as saying 'do bones' to a solo survivor complaining about NOED. Survivors put up with it for years, now they're mocking it when it's the killer's turn.

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