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SBMM...Sometimes I Wonder What You're Thinking.

StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305
edited December 2021 in General Discussions

So, actually had mostly really good games this evening. Really close, really even. Won some, lost some, even had 1 where I gave 2 people gate after someone DCed on first down and was thanked for it in postgame (the fact that this is rare speaks...volumes for the average behavior of survivor players, at least at my MMR).

Then I hit that game.

You know...that game.

Playing Demo. Ironworks (it's...always Ironworks) 2 gens pop before I even find the survivors.

Find them, start chasing and - ye gods, I just can't catch them after I injure them. Incredibly tight looping, really great vaults, drawing out every pallet drop to the max, dodging every shred perfectly - even my rudimentary mindgames do nothing. And of course clicky clicky strobe strobe so much that my photosensitive brain starts aching.

I get 4 outed with 2 hooks total and got teabagged from the gate until I chased the butts out.

I check the hours played - it's a 4man SWF (they are all on each other's friend list and playing) and the lowest number of hours played was 1,300. The highest was somewhere around 6800. 2 rocking Overcome+CoH+Shadowstep+Dead Hard, the rest DH+PTS+IW+DS. 2 Brand New Parts, 2 fancy flashlights.

Now, it's not like I've been going on multi-stomp chains or anything. If anything, I've lost more than I've won tonight.

What is it with the SBMM system and these bizarre matchups I get occasionally - SWFs with a h/p total of nearly 10,000 - when I've got maybe 270 hours as killer? Is the system just down for maintenance sometimes? Did these people smurf down their MMR? Did someone wiser than me dodge the lobby?

It's better than it was under ranks, sure - but I still don't get how this sort of game can occur if the MMR 'floors' and 'ceilings' are working correctly.

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Comments

  • FilthyLegionMainFilthyLegionMain Member Posts: 866

    I somewhat know how you feel and at this point, I just need a hug and that'll make me feel better.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,589

    In my experience, SBMM has no idea how to matchmake for 4 man SWFs. I've been in SWFs where the lowest hrs are 2000 and we get a killer under 100.

    It's probably a case of needing to pull killers from outside the intended MMR range to fill open slots. Like maybe once it opens up the range, it casts too wide of a net. It's a similar experience on the survivor side sometimes with teammates.

  • Dino7281Dino7281 Member Posts: 3,294

    That happens when high MMR killers stop playing...

    or there is not enough of them, but I doubt that unless everyone started to lose on purpose.

  • Leatherface1990Leatherface1990 Member Posts: 707

    It doesn't work/bugged lmao.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305

    Yeah it's a tough one.

    This one was a 'wat' moment though, because there is literally no way that I was the closest killer to their MMR at peak.

    I've got some suspicions regarding the SBMM.

    • The 'floors' and 'ceilings' do not apply when someone dodges a lobby, and it just grabs whoever is available.
    • The system doesn't update correctly during some periods (I know if I go on a losing streak at night, I'll generally have a winning streak the next evening.
    • People are still finding a way to smurf.
    • There's a damn hack that can fiddle with your MMR.
    • It has some sort of daily 'maintenance' period, where it's totally offline.

    Would really appreciate some more transparency from BHVR on this stuff.

  • Dino7281Dino7281 Member Posts: 3,294
    edited December 2021

    I don't really mind dead squads. If I knew from start it is dead squad would be better tho, so I can prepare on it with, so that is more custom match thing for me.

    But I hate survivors that use everything they can to stomp killer and they think it's because they are good and are just toxic shits.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305

    Yeah, there are two things that makes DbD a tough sell right now. Have been trying to get the wife and 4 other chaps from our Dungeons and Dragons group to try it, but I don't want to lie to them and what always puts them off is:

    • The grind.
    • The ingame community.

    Seriously, I don't mind losing, as long as it was somewhat even. I'd honestly rather lose an even game than win a game where I got paired up against newbies.

    I can even tolerate the odd sore loser in postgame. I understand.

    What always gets under my skin are the smug, gloating anuses that always run stompcomps with fully stacked perks, addons and a map offering - then have the gall to be jerks after, even though you played the game out ridiculously fairly.

  • Dino7281Dino7281 Member Posts: 3,294
    edited December 2021

    Yeah, it's just when you don't camp for last kill and then they are toxic. It's like: I should have camp you so hard...


    Grind is huge issue, it's not that big issue for survivors as for killers tho.

    If you get full squad and teach them some basics first in KYF, community wouldn't really be any issue.


    They said that they are working on grind fix, but I am really worried about how they said it. They are going to "fix" it and also prestige rework and I really hope it's not connected, but if they try to show me that you can get more BP higher prestige you have, I am gonna rage a lot. That would help veteran players, not new players...

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,589

    Kind of hard to say unless BHVR confirms one way or the other. I suspect it's just that it opens matchmaking too wide once it goes beyond initial parameters. I still get stupid easy killer games where I 4k at two or three remaining gens and survivors have a fraction of my hours, then the next game will be the correct difficulty.

  • GeneralVGeneralV Member Posts: 7,753

    Stupid

    BS

    Matchmaking

    Monster

  • JawsIsTheNextKillerJawsIsTheNextKiller Member Posts: 3,138

    @StarLost You are right about the lobby dodging causing it. The devs said this in the past. I think it was on a live stream. If the killer pulls out, the system prioritises getting them a lobby because they are supposed to be in a game already.

    I don't know if it relevant but they said this before MMR, but my experiences match yours which leads me to beleive they haven't changed this.

    It is annoying but fortunately these matchups don't happen often enough to put me off, and it is way less than it used to be with the awful old matchmaking system.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305

    Thanks!

    I think I may be somewhat unique in this one - but I've definitely noticed an overall improvement in match quality. I am sympathetic to the complaints of high MMR players who seem to be struggling at the moment though.

    A few questions, while I have you here (Dad to Dad :) )

    • I understand the 'find you a match more quickly' but most of my crazier matchups have almost instant queues. Is this due to a 4man sitting in queue for ages and me just drawing the short straw?
    • I've seen a fair few players (in their words) 'managing' their MMR, generally by suiciding at the end of the match. Are there any plans to help prevent/discourage smurfing?
    • What would be the definition of a 'good match'? Because at least 1 match in 5 throws me up against either rather new players (don't worry, I generally ease off them once I notice) or against monsters who...sadly seldom ease off on me.
    • I, personally, would not mind my wait times increasing by 50% to ensure closer matches. It's no fun to just roll over people or have to 'dial it back' and it's no fun to get pulverized by a nightmare squad. Isn't waiting in a longer queue and knowing that it's going to be an even-ish game better than waiting in a long queue and having no idea what I'm going up against?
    • Are there any plants to make MMR/enemy MMR/gains and losses visible in postgame? This would allow us to find answers to so many hotly debated issues regarding MMR.
    • Are there any plans to 'inflate' MMR when people play as a group (something of an industry standard) - for instance, applying a temporary, proportional multiplier to SWF groups - say 1.1x for a 2man, 1.3 for a 3man and 1.6 for a full SWF. This would go a long way to offsetting the enormous advantages coordination and information sharing provide, without 'punishing' folks for playing with their mates.
    • Lastly, are there periods where the SBMM system is just entirely offline? I'll have patches characterized by near instant queues and absolutely bonkers matchups that really do make me wonder...

    That all said, have a fantastic day and I appreciate the response.

    PS: Buff Pig! (couldn't resist).

  • SmukSmuk Member Posts: 735

    inflating mmr on swf would just shift problem to higher elo.

    SWF is just a problem itself mostly due to perk VOIP.

    If all players have equal mmr, with current state of the game, its just even further away from actually being a balanced match

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305

    I disagree.

    Again, it's something of an industry standard. Most games with both solo queue and premade options facing the same opponents do this exact thing.

    The advantages of communication, coordination and being able to stack specific perks and addons with a map offering are enormous, and quite difficult to quantify.

    Offsetting this by pairing you with a stronger opponent seems like a fair and meaningful way to counteract this, and get at least partially rid of the 'stompcomp stomping lowbies' paradigm.

    It would be an interesting experiment at least.

  • gammatsunamigammatsunami Member Posts: 545

    I feel bad for the killers that get left with the swfs we all dodge haha

  • SmukSmuk Member Posts: 735

    It is still transfering problem to higher elo.

    This is asymmetrical pvp game. 4 players will never be equally skilled as killer.

    I wouldnt mind playing against SWFs where I can be efficient.

    And I believe as most of the killers wouldnt mind either.

  • KrimbarKrimbar Member Posts: 200

    "The system is trying to match you with somebody within a pretty tight range of skill at first, but there are times where there simply aren't any other players in the queue within that range for you to match with at the moment."

    Can you define what "skill" comes down to?

  • themoobs1984themoobs1984 Member Posts: 619

    They wouldn't get left with them if they dodged them too. The devs aren't going to do anything about the massive advantages an SWF has over a killer so killers should never give another SWF a match.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305
    edited December 2021

    Whoa, thanks mate. I'll give this a read through.

    EDIT: Let me go point by point, because this is genuinely interesting to me (as someone who has dabbled in game design).

    • Yes, I'm not really sure what could be done here. On one hand it must be frustrating to wait for ages, but on the other hand it does sometimes feel like I'm being thrown as a snack to the crocodiles. If I was going to be entirely honest, a big reason for this is how often I get teabagged and gloated at after getting stomped by these groups (which does wear on you, even if you put on a brave face). This game has a...colorful community at times.
    • I think you may need to consider bringing this back. I know that it sometimes occurs to me to manage my own MMR, and - especially when I start feeling outclassed - I'm tempted to just let some more people escape (I try to resist because I've seen so many games ruined by smurfing). I'm not sure what the reality of the situation is, but the common perception is that when you start learning a new killer/haven't played one for a while, it gets pegged just under the highest MMR of your killers. I...have no idea what the truth of this one is (so much information on SBMM is hearsay and recycled gossip taken as fact).
    • That does sound like a balanced match - but due to the somewhat snowbally nature of DbD a lot of games feel like one sided stomps going one way or another. This isn't so much an MMR issue as a 'feel' issue though, and is beyond me to solve.
    • Yeah, it's a knotty one. I know that my survivor queues are sometimes long enough to watch an entire episode of Bob's Burgers. I have no idea how to get people to play killer more. Well...I have some, but that's going to put the cat amongst the pigeons...
    • I'm glad you mentioned the toxicity issue - because it's one of the two things that does make DbD something of a hard sell when I try to drag the wife and my Dungeons and Dragons crew into it (the second being the grind). It's likely outside the scope of this discussion, but I wonder if some sort of positive reinforcement via a reward tied to the 'thumbs up' postgame option (naturally only being able to apply it to your opponent) could be a partial solution.
    • Thanks. I'm glad that the SWF thing is at least on the radar. The difference between going up against a group of solos and a group of coordinated survivors is staggering, even at my likely intermediate MMR. Others have suggested more robust communication solutions for solos and a corresponding balance adjustment for killers, but yeah - again, wandering off topic.
    • Interesting. The only thing I don't like about this is that my MMR isn't shifting much despite me getting hammered flat. This is what sometimes (I think) creates those awful strings of games where you just start wondering if you are really bad at the game, because despite suffering a massive loss, nothing prevents you from getting that sort of group immediately after.

    All this aside, I do appreciate you dialoguing with me (us) here. You've made a hell of a game and - while balance is always a moving target - I do feel somewhat optimistic for the future.

    Post edited by StarLost on
  • JeanCharpentierJeanCharpentier Member Posts: 370

    "Tight range of skill" about a system that works only with kills/escapes without taking any other information to determine your real skill and involvement in the trial... okay

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 19,903

    If you wouldn't mind me asking, how does disconnecting impact your MMR? I've had games- unfortunately, a lot of them- where players have curbstomped me (these being incredibly good players that I woulnd't have stood a chance against without playing my mains) however at the end all 4 have DC'd. Would this raise my MMR and lower theirs? Freeze everyone's?

    How does it work?

  • bm33bm33 Member Posts: 6,653

    Is there something that could be put into place in matchmaking to prevent players from going against eachother multiple times within a certain period of time? Last week I had the same killer in 5/6 matches. I had 2 matches where I got hatch and 3 where the killer tunneled me out first meanwhile they had 3-4ks each match, our MMR should've been going in opposite directions. I stayed to watch the matches when I died to see how my teammates did. The wait to get into a lobby was quick, under a minute. I could understand if there had been a wait but this felt like we were instantly getting matched together - meanwhile I never saw the same teammates. I tried switching to killer but after 5 minutes of waiting I went and played something else. I get wanting to keep waits down but playing against the same player multiple times in a row is not fun at all.

  • LordofweedLordofweed Member Posts: 292

    Thank you so much for clearing things up! Those questions were very important for us to know :)

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305

    Thank you for asking this!

    I was wondering this myself and really should have remembered to ask here.

    If a survivor DCs, does that inflate my MMR/decrease theirs?

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,305

    Fantastic, thanks. That's a huge mystery solved.

    What happens in the case of a loading screen DC (The Host Has Disconnected or something)? Is the entire match discarded?

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