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On Toxicity - Is There A Solution?

StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,338
edited December 2021 in Feedback and Suggestions

So, as I mentioned in another thread recently - the #1 thing getting me down about this game at the moment, more than the balance issues, more than my MMR gripes, more than frigging Dead Hard and CoH combined - it's just how absolutely meanspirited some players tend to be.

You'll play as fair as possible despite it being a rough matchup, or at times even let people farm, only to get teabagged from the exit gates or flicky flicky'd until your photosensitivity issues send you to bed with a splitting headache and laughed at in postgame. Or the final two just play hide and seek until you AFK because they let you get a 3gen.

It's one thing to lose. Everyone loses. But when you have to eat the gloating of the other team being gigantic prolapsed anuses at you on top of it - yeah, that gets under your skin. I don't care how 'tough' you are, or how much of a brave face you put up...it wears on you after a while.

It actually makes this game a bit of a tough sell to my wife and the folks I play other games with - because the 'how is the community?' question tends to come up and I'm not going to lie to them. It...sucks.

Suggestions

Back in the day, League of Legends had a similar reputation, and it was strangling growth. So Riot stuck a Tribunal system in and it was a massive success. Something like 80% of toxic players reformed after their first warning, and more than half of the remainder reformed after their first short ban.

Now as much as I'd like a LoL style Tribunal system to find these people a new game to play, that's probably too much overhead.

So...it got me thinking.

What if those Thumbs Up things in postgame actually did something?

Say, after a game, you could choose to vote an opponent from the other side up and give them BP. It doesn't have to be much - maybe 10,000 or so. This would encourage people to not be jerks, because they'd be losing out on BP.

Hell, if I was in charge I'd look at punishing survivors for BMing but...yeah. That's likely just because I'm annoyed. And have a headache from the strobing.

TL/DR:

Is there a way to persuade people to manner up in DbD, be it via punitive actions or a reward system?

Post edited by Rizzo on
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Comments

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,759

    I think that some kind of reward system would definitely do a decent amount to encourage survivors not to be quite so arrogant and gloaty, but honestly, I think the solution to this problem is gonna have to be - at least in part - fixing the balance issues so survivors can't four-man-escape quite so easily, and make them feel some more pressure to actually just leave in the endgame.

    I really do feel you, though. Multiple times I've had the last survivor in the trial just stand in an exit gate until the timer's nearly down, solely so they can teabag me and run out. I don't give them the satisfaction, and they will quite literally stand there until the last second before finally running out, it's really annoying.

  • Bennett_They1ThemBennett_They1Them Member Posts: 2,513

    I feel like a system that punishes subjectively is worse then one that rewards subjectively.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,338

    The amount of times I've seen this done without someone already starting the toxicity off first...I can count on one hand without using my thumb.

  • MrPeanutbutterMrPeanutbutter Member Posts: 952

    No. You can’t make terrible human beings magically become not-terrible human beings

  • kekprodkekprod Member Posts: 9

    And the amount of times where my team has done nothing wrong and got BM'ed is also uncountable with many sets of hands.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,338

    Naturally. But you can make them keep their terribleness to themselves.

    Shrug. I watch a lot of streams too, and my experiences don't seem to be atypical.

  • dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,123
    edited December 2021

    Idk about a solution but I do know I can doing my part as a survivor main to try and prevent it by being as kind as possible to killers so they have fun too.

  • Barbarossa2020Barbarossa2020 Member Posts: 1,095

    And how would you stop swfs from abusing it?

    Seen it plenty in WoW pvp premades, people report or vote to kick random pugs and the pug gets booted etc.

    It's happened on steam and google review often enough.

  • FuzzelsFuzzels Member Posts: 449

    You could just like.. not look at the survivors tbagging and flashlighting? Easy solution my dude. Also just turn your chat off if you can't handle the scary mean words. Maybe stay off the internet too while you're at it. People in general suck. Anonymity only enhances that

  • SunsetSherbetSunsetSherbet Member Posts: 1,292
    edited December 2021

    Actually ban people for being toxic instead of acting like it's okay/acceptable would be a start. This game and dev team are the embodiment of that Simpsons scene. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

  • danielmaster87danielmaster87 Member Posts: 6,653

    There's not a solution besides voicing our thoughts of those people, and actually considering it a problem first of all. People who intentionally annoy or say they're better than you are losers. This behavior is not normal and its not right.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,338

    Interracial couples who get slurs yelled at them in the park can just avoid the park?

    People who don't like having obscenities screeched at them on the sidewalk can just not walk on the sidewalk?

    Kids who don't like being bullied can just not go to school?

    How far exactly do you want to go with this?

    No. The blame for being a jerk is on the person being a jerk, not on the person that they were a jerk too.

    It really is a marvel of the modern generation and how much time you are willing to spend defending you being a crappy person...rather than just not being a crappy person.

  • FuzzelsFuzzels Member Posts: 449

    The differences here are that in a game, you can literally just look away or turn your chat off. It's that simple.

    Also, whens the last time you ACTUALLY had someone scream obscenely at you, or yell slurs at you while walking around in public? And how often is it happening? If you're answer is more than once in the last 3 years, move somewhere better. Get out of the ghetto

  • No way the devs can stop it really... its a mindset problem and has to be fixed by changing their mindset. When everyone else is doing it, people see it as the "cool" or "funny" thing to do, so more people start doing it in response...

    The only way the devs can change some toxic behavior is by adding cooldowns to certain things which could affect gameplay. Like not being able to spam crouch, flick flashlights, etc. That is something they could do to help eliminate toxic behaviors, but that doesn't resolve the issue with players being toxic to each other.

  • FuzzelsFuzzels Member Posts: 449

    Like I get what you're saying, people shouldn't be so terrible. But the fact is, it's gonna happen. So unless you are doing somethjng to deal with the issue yourself, you've got no right to complain

  • BabuDweetBabuDweet Member Posts: 553

    I second this.

    I've had people text me homophobic slurs(cause I'm a lesbian) cause of this game and just the other day apparently the reason I'm soooo bad at this game is cause I'm a woman lmao.

    But did I get super bothered? No cause there is just ######### people and you gotta get on with it.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,338

    Sigh. My point is that you are somehow trying to justify toxic behavior rather than reduce toxic behavior. Which has always struck me as an odd hill to die on.

    I swear, is this a millennial thing?

    Yes, I'm providing feedback on a forum designed for feedback on how I think this problem can be worked on.

    Sure.

    But it did bother you. Even if just a little. Because if it didn't, there would be something wrong with you - and you probably wouldn't have remembered it. And over time...it wears on you. More and more. It makes every match a grudge match to repay the one before, and suddenly nobody is having fun. Tit for tat is a powerful instinct.

    My point is that I've seen this happen to communities once a map/game got popular and the twerps find it, and if steps aren't taken to reduce it, it drives people away. Eventually, interest dries up as people leave Smite and go back to LoL.

    Maybe it's because I'm older and am looking at this through the eyes of a sportsman of yesteryear, where acting like this would get you benched or even fined.

    Again, I'm not saying 'just ban all the jerks'. I want to help them...act less like jerks, possibly by incentivizing good sportsmanship.

  • BabuDweetBabuDweet Member Posts: 553

    I'm not justifying but being realistic. There are ######### people and to actually try and act like you can take that away is just not realistic.

    It's not a millennial thing, why even say that?

    If you're older you should have enough sense that people are just ######### sometimes and there's nothing that can change that.

  • FuzzelsFuzzels Member Posts: 449

    Ok, but you are dodging MY point and argument completely. The fact is, your argument of "do this in public" isn't valid because it doesn't happen. And even if it did happen, you more than likely would simply walk away, because who cares about some rando telling things at you? Probably just some drunk or druggie, so move on with your day and forget em, right? Use the same logic in the game. ESPECIALLY since it's just a game. Turn your chat off if you can't handle the scary mean words, and stare at a wall if you are "triggered" by a survivor tbagging.

    Also, giving incentives to people to NOT act like dicks is just a fantastic way to show people that if they aren't rewarded for a good deed, they have no reason to do said good deed. Hence, you create even more entitled dicks that think they deserve the world just for existing. Kinda along the same lines of giving out participation awards to kids, and that's led us to the current state of the world where people's feelings get hurt over the tiniest things like a player in a video game crouching repeatedly.

  • LaluziLaluzi Member Posts: 4,398

    The point is that some people look to a frustrating culture and go 'this sucks, can we change that?', and other people look at a frustrating culture and go 'not only is this inevitable, but if you're bothered by it, you're the loser and you need to get over it.'

    There's very obviously an issue with player nastiness in this game, and while the issue can never be entirely expunged, it can definitely be reduced on the simple fact that it's currently entirely unpunished and that other communities, while always containing bad sports, have managed to be not quite as systemically hateful as this one. And the issue will never go away if the community continues to accept it as just another part of the game and belittle players who take issue with it.

    As an aside, OP, I'm frequently lowkey awed reading your posts. It's rare that you express an opinion that I don't share in its entirety and I've always appreciated your thoroughness when doing so. I don't have very much to say here that you haven't already and I quite like the idea of thumbs ups meaning something.

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,487

    This game is not for the lighthearted, and breeds toxicity by its nature. Really any PvP game does.

  • BabuDweetBabuDweet Member Posts: 553

    I get that but in the same breath I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

    It sucks people are toxic but that's just the way it is, I would welcome a system to tackle slurs etc... but not in game bm personally cause it's just a game.

    If people are directly using slurs and being that type of way then yeah a system should exist but for me personally. I just accept people are gonna be immature and disgusting cause it's just the reality of some people really suck sadly.

    I ain't justifying it, that's just how I see it.

    I appreciate your comment about agreeing with my opinions a lot, we can't always agree but I can say I respect you completely and your views♡

  • Barbarossa2020Barbarossa2020 Member Posts: 1,095

    Gaming in general has changed alot.

    Im a older gamer i guess, (37) I played alot of online gaming when dialup was the normal. I also played World of Warcraft in Vanilla, and was hyped when i heard "classic" was coming. I thought great the old community will be back, you'll know people you play with and recognise those names.

    I played classic and just felt it very hostile, people were doing their best to skip content to get to the end game goal. They would afk farm, virtual currency, experience, items, Anything to get a easy advantage.

    One just has to look at gaming now days, alot of games have pay to win models and lootboxes, which helps satisfy the mentality of having everything "now".

    People don't like to spend time earning anything and with it comes a culture of toxciity, unless you're in the mainstream of "getting rich quick"

    And doing whatever is nessecary to achieve that you're on the outer, and the same translates to DbD, People want/need instant gratifcation and the easiet way to do that is to use every meta and rule "bending" to do so.

    Games haven't changed people have.

  • RainehDazeRainehDaze Member Posts: 1,293

    Just as a note, "don't look at the flashlights if they are physically harmful to you" is not exactly an option. If killers could completely avoid seeing any slight hint of flashlights, they would be utterly pointless. And looking away from your screen is also difficult.

    Can we please, if nothing else, leave the onus on BHVR to prevent that from being possible, rather than blaming the people who just want to play the game for photosensitivity?

    It doesn't affect me beyond being annoying, but that's an extremely weird thing to defend.

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    I've always been an advocate both for a better in-game report system (You know- one that actually works.) And a system similar to Overwatch's Endorsement system. If you enjoy playing with someone, you can give them props. More props you give for whatever you wanna give them for, the more likely you'll be placed with people with similar endorsement levels and the more rewards you get for good behaviour.

    Mix that with an in-game report system that actually does something and I really think that toxicity wouldn't be a major issue.

  • SunsetSherbetSunsetSherbet Member Posts: 1,292

    By this logic why have laws since people are going to break them anyway?

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,338
    edited December 2021

    Because I've worked in education and counselling for most of my life, and I can very much tell you that 'people saying mean things' can wear people down to the point of misery, both adults and kids - especially when it follows them home from the world into the things they do to relax. And I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for it, or trying to place the blame on the people getting hassled, not the jerks.

    And I'm sick of this culture war crap too. This isn't some politically correct rant about Far Cry 5 having the wrong sort of diversity or how the new survivor is problematic or whatever. It's genuinely frustrating how the response to 'hey, maybe PC culture has gone too far' turns into 'well, that means I have to act like a massive septic butt wherever I go to own the libs'.

    You also missed my point completely. I'm using a hypothetical to show you how your suggestion works once you apply it elsewhere.

    There is enough nastiness in the real world. When I come home to enjoy my hobby, I don't think expecting it to be free of the same nastiness is unreasonable.

    If that means we have to reward people for not acting like jerks? So be it. The result is what matters here.

    This.

    Also - thanks. I always sense I tend to waffle, especially when threads dip into politics.

    Honestly, it's the sportsmanship that bothers me. I sympathize when someone is a sore loser, but gloaters...get under my skin. Especially this sort of cowardly 'well, there are no consequences for me acting like this so here we go' stuff. And while people like to put on the fashionable 'it's just the internet stop being so sensitive' brave face, I think it gets under theirs too.

    And no, I'll never accept 'that's the way it is' when I can think of five easy steps to take to help make the situation better.

    You are never going to eliminate ingame toxicity. But you can damn well reduce it. And it's going to be something the devs have to tackle sooner or later, because once your game stops being niche, the nature of it's community becomes important. Newbies aren't going to stick around when they start running into bully squads who will stall the game out as long as possible and tell them to uninstall in postgame.

    Because millennials seem to have split into two camps along political lines where one side is trying to be as PC as possible, one side is trying to be as outrageous as possible and everyone else gets caught in the crossfire.

    And (as an aside) millennials are lower in empathy, higher in apathy and have a more prolonged adolescent stage developmentally than previous generations. The psych on this stuff is actually...really interesting. Naturally, this doesn't fit all or even the majority of millennials, but not all stereotypes are inaccurate.

    No. As I've gotten older I've realized that you can't always stop people from being jerks, but you can damn well kick them out of the bar so everyone else can enjoy their drinks.

  • MylaMyla Member Posts: 1,551
    edited December 2021

    The thumbs up will definitely not be abused by people spamming it because they can lol.

    Toxicity will never be fixed in this game and that's goes to every game there is. You can't put punishment on someone for spamming their flashlights and pressing the crouch button repeatedly. Either press the continue button and don't read chat or report them if they did say something offensive like racial slurs or life threats.

    Also the toxicity in this game is just childish. There's a lot of games with worse cesspool than this not that I'm saying any of this is makes it any better but I just disagree on anyone saying this is the most toxic community in a game there is lol. It's far from it.

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