At high mmr the perk doesn't proc (so it should be reworked into something a killer's skill is involved), and you can't only make the game balanced around high mmr either... or you'll commercially kill the game.
NOED is fine. I´m also often surprised by it - but hey.
Perk Small Game has a number how many totems are done and it pings when you are near and look at a totem. That´s good.
I always cleansed them because of the points (and NOED) - has changed since boons.
But to cleanse totems as you come around the map during the game is really not that hard.
If you are afraid of it - cleanse the totems by yourself. And over time you really get to learn the totem spots at the maps...
The problem isnt the perk, the problem is the mechanics behind it.
Right now totems have little to 0 reason to be destroyed thanks to the boon meta, at high MMR survivors varely need boons as they are far more eficient than most, the problem with your comment is that IF NOED its reworked for high level MMR its going to be a nightmare to deal with at low level of game just basically buffing it more.
What it needs to be done its to create a true balance betwen keep totems and destroying them, to make them an actual tactical descicion.
If survivors want to keep the totems for boons they should pay the consequence at the end of the game (IE a way that hexes ALWAYS proc on some form), on the other hand if they decide they dont want to deal with hexes they should sacrifice the use of boons in some form, they cant make the cake and eat it.
NOED its still fine the way it is, im going to repeat it, catering to low level ranks ends giving you ridiculous nerfs like slinger and wraith, and at the same time creates an entitled player base like theres right now, a player base that IF isnt spoon feed information and easy ways out of every situation start to clamor for nerfs left and right (just look at the artist, not one day out and people where already demanding her to be nerfed to the ground because they couldnt loop her all around like ALL the other killers)
How can NOED be fine if it overly punishes low mmr survivors and is ineffective at high mmr? That doesn't make any sense.
Noed isn't even that powerful, but it has easily become the hardest crutch perk, and saying "do bones" is as bad as survivors saying "do boons" to the killer. New killer players think the game is impossible and survivors are OP but then chase one survivor all game and act good when their noed goes off.
Noed could do the literal same effect but it should be made to be based off of tokens similar to BBQ imo, so you play the game normal and hook each survivor once, and get rewarded with the power of noed, and it can still be done by totems. Killer has to earn it, and gets a large advantage.
After some thoughts, i think that NOED should work like a mix of no way out and haunted grounds.
How its overly punishing when the only thing survivors have to do its break a totem, they dont have to do a 5 minutes ritual that might fail, im going to repeat it, survivors for the most part are to lazy to care about a mechanic that should give them the reward of preventing a potential BIG thing for the killer. The mechanics behind hexes totems and boons is that needs to be changed, at the core NOED gives the killer a last chance to get kills and still has to work it on to find chase and down someone to put on a hook, i find it way more unfair that survivors are given a crutch perk like CoH wich allows them to make mistakes left and right with very little repercution to their actions.
But lets bite the fulled, how would you change it to make it fair for low level gameplay while at the same time make it rewarding and viable on high MMR
You're only on theoritical arguments denying that it overly punishes low and mid mmr survivors, when anyone playing solo q on a regular basis can see it.
Just as much as you on the theorical argument that its broken and needs to be changed asap, and yet im giving you reasons behind my arguments, something you havent done yet, at most you just say its unfair and needs changes, but im not reading any potential improvements from your part, something i constantly do when both of us have an argument
I'm theoritical when i say what i see? What everyone can see when playing that role? Play a bit solo q before denying everything that i say. Stop being rude and high on your horse. Try to understand why solo q people say things, and experience them before criticizing.
Everyone can se that survivors are busted and overcatered for the most part of the game, everyone playing the role can se that. Play a bit of killer before you denny everything i say. Se? i could use the exact same argument againts your logic and its perfectly valid, the key point is that, and "everyone" knows it, the game its more survivor sided than killer sided. The fanbase its divided in two sides, one has 4/5 of it and the rest its the other part, its obvious wich one they will give more antention as it has more money sinking potential. Now back to the topic i have played a bit but i honestly dont like survivor that much, for me its boring for the most part, but i understand the situation in general. Clamoring that NOED its unhealty for the game its quite honestly laguable. Boons are unhealty,specially CoH, safe pallets and jungle structures are unhealty, the heavy hand holding of survivors its unhealty, and this shows by the complete resistance of survivors to learn new tactics, the moment any killer that isnt loopable comes out the outcry its shown imediatly, yet most of the time you se adjustments made for survivors that are positive rather than ones made for killers, slinger and wraith are just two of this things happening. Im not being rude honestly, but im not going to sugar coat things when they need to be said bluntly, and im not in a high horse, but unless you actually have a good argument for the topic im not going to sweet it down, if you want to convince me of your ideas give me a good argument or get ready to have it critisiced and disected of why its good or bad, i have agreed with you on some topics, but like it or not many of your ideas simply arent good or to one sided or even not objectivive and just driven about what "you" belive things are. The problem you refuse to se is that at the core, the game has a lot of problems that create this situations, problems i have pointed out plenty of times and you just avoid as im guessing you have no arguments againts them, some are as an example the extreme hand holding survivors are subject to, the amount of information they are given its quite honestly ridiculous wich in turn makes survivors entitled to everything. Solo Q i will give you needs some improvements, but the answer isnt to strip down every tool and killer down to make them more "friendly" for low level players that "should" instead strive to become better and not just be allowed to cry nerf and give given watever they want to have easy games all the time
I play killer, and what they need is good slowdown perks/ viable power without add-ons... and add-ons that improve your lethality. Not a crutch perk that only allow you to put in the ground what you've already done anyway; and is useless when you need it.
Edit: also, thank you for not denying not playing solo q on a regular basis. It puts perspective on your approach of the situation.
I do play killer a bunch. Let me show you:
the thing is perks shouldnt be bandaids for the basic things the game should let you do, by definition an "add" its meent to be something added to, addition of you will. Additions should be things that change the way you play, if you have ever player heroes of the storm you will se what i meen, on that game the powers you choce change the way you play, change the way power work etc. Perks on DBD should be akin to that, as an example plague its a great one, from infecting players directly, she can use an addon wich allows her to infect generators and pallets changing the dinamic of her gameplay, thats what the game needs. From a basic stand point generators shouldnt not fly the way they do, they should be designed to make it so both killer and survivors have a more engaging experience, but courently because of toolboxes, perks and so on this just breaks the flow of the game and creates a need for counter measure perks (IE generator slowdown perks).
Thats what i meent that the core of the problem isnt NOED but the mechanics behind it, if survivors are just lazy and dont want to deal with totems its their fault to be aflicted with NOED wich just becomes an extra layer of lethality for the killer, hes now faster and deadlier, but it was preventable from the get go, reason i have said mutiple times that killers should have the ability to destroy blessed totems as it adds an extra layer of tactical gameplay, killer has to measure if it wants to reduce the amount of totems to use something like NOED or stop stressing about boons.
It would be hipocritical of my side to say i play constantly as a survivor, that still doesnt prevent me from watching things from a diferent perspective, it also helps i enjoy watching stremears from time to time so i can se how things develop on the game without the need of constantly be playing the role
At least we can agree on the fact that gen speed definitely aren't fine. Yes, killers needs tool to deal with it. I think you see NOED as one of them if i understood correctly. I do have a bias, since i play a lot of solo q... there is things i hate going against: gen slowdowns doesn't bother me but NOED is a real pain. This is why i'm never using it when i play killer (bias on my part)... and why i'm not considering it as a tool to deal with gen speed. I think this is why we couldn't understand each other; and i do apologise for being a bit stubborn.
The problem with doing bones is that killers of varying skill ranges are aiming to eliminate one survivor as fast as possible. In a 3v1, you don't have the luxury of doing bones.
You also don't have the luxury of doing bones if you're being chased for 3 gens. Being afraid of NOED and wanting it to be fair are two very different things.
@Viamont Given that NOED is primarily a crutch perk used to secure an endgame snowball, I'm inclined to disagree with it being fine.
Survivors aren't too lazy to do bones; they simply don't have the luxury of doing bones. Even in low MMR, killers want to eliminate one survivor as fast as possible, so they tunnel. The person being tunneled doesn't have time to do bones, and if they're solo queue there's no way for them to know if other survivors are doing bones.
Being preventable doesn't mean that survivors shouldn't know it's in play before someone gets hit with it.
Not exactly, NOED its from my perspective an endgame high risk high reward perk, the fact it can be dennied early on the game confirms this, without totems its a wasted perk, more so that it only comes in efect at the end game IF theres totems around.
NOED isnt a must in any shape or form, from a personal perspective i havent run it a single time in all my games, im more of a direct type of player, i want my perks to afect me in the moment. I can understand why many people run them, but given im dorito head main i dont feel the need as much as other killers, but i can understand why they run it.
On the other hand i can se where are you coming from with the "need" to have it changed/nerfed, but tackling this particular perk at this particular time of the game wont fix that much as if instead whe tackled problems that are much more worrisome. From my perspective its more important to tackle things like generator speed fix and regresion and healing speed.
If generator speed its tackled, worked and rebalanced this will imediatly take away preassure from killers, taking away preassure from killers will in return make it so most (not all) will feel less preasured to tunnel and camp, less tunneling and camping will meen survivors will have (potentially) more chances to interact with the killer (something that needs heavily to be adressed, plenty of survivors have mentioned they want meanigfull secondary objectives to have something else to do aside from repair gen simulator, wich its a completly valid need from them), if the chain of needs of the game its adressed then you can adress perks and wich ones need to be tunned up and reworked.
Perks like NOED (just a single example) are a sympthom of the core problem, instead of fixing the root of it BHVR just add bandaids, this is aking to having an exposed wound with a broken bone, and instead of fixing the bone and go up to the upper layer (IE the skin) you just cover it but dont fix the problem.
I understand where you're coming from, but i'm afraid that making gen speed more difficult (gen speed longer or add another objective) might backfire. Maybe you slowdown on the tunneling and camping if you have the upper hand against weaker survivors (thats what i do when it happens)... but i can assure you that's not the case for the majority of killers. I feel killers need built-in early game slowdown to prevent one or two gens to be completed after the first chase (if i had the choice, i'd buff corrupt to 4 gens corrupted on 7 and make it base kit).
Yea you can prevent it while half or more of your team dies while you spend all that time looking for and cleansing totems. Almost every match I spend looking for totems half my team is either dead hook or dead by the time I get them all cleansed. All to shut down 1 perk? Not fair in my opinion. Killers should not get that much power especially in the end game.
On one of NOED nerf thread, someone came with the idea of giving a totem counter to all survivors (like that you know if your team is doing the objective or if you have to/ it might even give an incentive to other players to do bones). What do you think about it?
Yea because most survivors care about being competitive in DBD... (they don't). I wish people cared less about trying to be competitive in this game and cared more about having fun. Its a game that offers scary situations against monsters that can give you jump scares and fear as you try to escape. I'm of the opinion the entire game needs to fundamentally change. The way survivors and killers interact with each other needs to be more fun and scary rather than how well you can turn your character around a pallet.
I think the idea of totems altogether needs to change. The killer is still doing killer things while those generators aren't being worked on and were busy trying to find totems. Even if we cleanse all 5 guess what? We still have to do 5 generators. Do you know how hard it is to find them on maps like Midwich? Even with the perks and maps we have for totems, it still takes time to find and cleanse them and those generators sure don't repair any faster afterwards.
How about this. Give survivors more incentives to do them other than removing a killer perk. How about for each totem cleansed survivors repair generators 5% faster that stacks? The blood points aren't enough to really motivate more survivors to do them. I've seen so many survivors just run right past totems not even caring noed could be a thing.
Sure cause the Gens aren't done fast enough already
They aren't. If gens are going off around you as the killer thats your fault. You literally can see all of the gens on the map. Doing totems often feels like giving the killer more time and freedom to find us before we have the chance to get enough gens done to escape.
Most times you lose two gens while you are at your first chase and you want to tell. Me that's not to fast? Even surv mains acknowledge that it'd to fast that's why killers use noed tunneling and camping so much lately plus matchmaking is broken beyond repair so killers often get matched with stronger survs cause there aren't that many of us left. So many killer mains switched to surv cause. Being a killer sucks atm but hey let's just take everything from them cause you are to lazy to do totems let's have fun with 40min surv q time cause there are 10 killer players left
She obvioulsy doesn't play much killer if she can say that kind of things. You shouldn't bother too much.
I know you're right but I just can stand that this wonderful game is in this state and survs still wanting nerfs for killers
The problem with generators is that the way the are designed allow survivors to rush them easily from the start, theres topics of people lossing 2 or even 3 generators on the first chase (around i minute of gameplay), and i can belive that. Betwen toolboxes, skillchecks and perks its not imposible to imagine a decent group can make that happen, i have seen people spawn togheter and get done with the first generator in about 20 something seconds. Gens in my opinion need to be changed so there cant be more than 2 people or even 1 per gen, this for starters slows down the speed a little bit. From there whe go on a very complicated point...generator speed related perks (both survivor and killer) are completly removed and made it so gens have a sort of static expected life time OR whe simply rework all to be a bit stronger (killer side) and slightly less strong (survivor side) in order to give killers more wiggle room to play around and feel less preasured to go around.
Belive me im very aware that a good chunk of killers just go ham on tunneling and camping, i still belive its a simpthom of the gen rush problem (if whe can find a way to make gens less opresive that could potentially help reduce the preasure). One of the best sugestions i have heard around wich leaves the meta somewhat the same with the gen speed, is that ALL gens at the start of the game are blocked for a set amount of time, from an early game perspective this sound like a good choice. Having gens blocked lets say for 1 minute (random number just for example purpouses) would give time to the killer to wander around and "maybe" get its first chase, survivors at this point can use the time to identify generators and tottems, basically a sort of "prep" time for both sides, killer might get a headstart, thats true, but survivors already had free time to set up boons, find generators and get a general idea of the map area and use it to their advantage
heres the problem with that...killers has always meent to the power role, survivors should be reacting to what the killer does, not the way around (wich is the courent situation). Totems where always meent to be a survivors secondary objective, something extra to do while inside the trial, be for extra BP or to prevent situations to happen (IE hexes). This just on the other hand just proves my point i have said plenty of times, survivors have grown up complacient and lazy, they have varely any objectives to do (repair gens and evade killer) and yes, they should also worry about a potential strong perk, you guys are 4 people vs a single 1, that single 1 cant be everywhere, thats the point of having other things to do.
Sorry but "do you know how hard its to find them" its a silly excuse, you people have 3rd person vew unlike the killer, your field of vew its superior in every way, its not hard to find them, and this comes from a killer main that constantly sees them in the corner of his eye, but given i dont play hexes i dont care that much unless theres boons on play. Also its funny you say you dont have time to destroy the totems, yet players bless totems like crazy, both blessing and destroying take exactly the same amount of time so no, its not an excuse or a decent argument againts that.
The game doesnt need anymore speed generators bonuses, they are already crazy fast, if you want an incentive BP should be increased from 1K BP to perhaps 1.5BP, when the last totem its destroyed it could give a 2000BP bonus to all the team, meaning people will get a very chunkly bonus for doing that. Another alternative could be that each time survivors destroy a totem they get a +5% gen speed repair for 10 seconds NON stackable with other totem breaking, this would be a good incentive not only to destroy but also cordinate some more, something survivors need to do, to be fair toug, when a totem its destroyed all survivors are notified with a sound so they know they should get on a gen to use the speed bonus
Just a reminder that this perk still needs to be nerfed or removed. As I've said, it grants the killer way too much power and way too much advantage in the end game. Instant down effects in general just make this game very unenjoyable for me.