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How to counter stereotypical 'trash killer' (Noed, camping and efficient play aka tunneling)

SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 409
edited December 2021 in General Discussions

Edit: I think many people missed the point of this thread completely. Wheter the tunnel, camp, noed and other stuff is healthy, unhealthy balanced, tryhardy on unfun is not the point here. Game is how it is right now. The point is for people to know what to bring and what to do against killers which they dislike to the point of crying on forums about, because there are tools to make such players loose majority of the times. It makes one look pretty... noncool when crying about something they can counter quite easily actually.


I see survivors crying about noed (which is a very weak perk) way too often and same goes for camping or tunneling. Developers gave you 4 perk slots, item slot, two addon slots and offering slot... There are tools you can use to counter thing you don't like...

"Duuh, but I need my 4 meta perks!" - if you really need 4 meta perks to win as a survivor... you are not good at the game... It might be harsh, but this is the truth.

You have the tools available, if you refuse to use them and still cry about very easily counterable stuff a killer can bring or do then it is on you, not on the game balance (which by the way is swayed in favour of survivors). You want your 4 meta perks? Sure, use them, but if you don't use tools the game is giving you for free and then cry about for example about Noed, you just look pathetic.


How to not be a crybaby:

Noone Escapes Death: When the exit gates are powered, the killer gains 4% movement speed and all survivors are exposed. It does need a dull totem which is transformed into a hex - if there are no dull totems left in the trial or it's hex totem has been broken the perk has no effect.

There are 5 totems in EVERY trial. Memorize their spawn locations and simply break dull totems during the game.

"But breaking totems is a waste of timeeeeeee" - Breaking a totem takes 14 seconds, which with 5 totems gives us a total of 70 seconds of cleansing time. Keep in mind that this is asymmetrical game - killers time being 4 times as precious as single survivor’s time as they can all do this simultaneously. Breaking all 5 totems prolongs the game by less than 20 seconds, get over yourselves.

But it would take so much time running around and finding all of them!

Multiple solutions to this ‘problem’:

  1. Don’t look for totems during a trial, just break one if you happen to see it in between doing gens (if 2 or more survivors in the team did just that, there would be no totems left in majority of the games). Inner Strength is a great perk to run as it gives this motivation to break dull to reward you with free heal in clutch moments. In short: Don't actively look for them, but if you stumble upon one - break it
  2. Use tracking perks. Small Game helps finding the totems and gives you a counter of how many totems have been broken (not only by you!). You can also use map with Detective’s Hunch or Counter Force. I like Detective’s Hunch a lot as it helps with generators too (great for indoor maps) and actually adds revealed auras to map if you hold one. I do like Counter Force with map more though, simply because CF gives you cleansing speed buff and helps finding totems - while map helps you find the first totem (CF aura reading activates when you break a totem and shows the one further away from you). Stamps on map help too as you will most likely run near a totem on the way to the one aura you have seen. CF doesn’t not add the revealed totems to the map though!


But the boon perk!”: Yes, boon perks do require a totem to work. You can literally ask or tell others that you are using boons in pretrial chat. Booned totem can’t become Noed’s hex unless snuffed out, but keeping dulls not broken is always a risk - which is good, because boons are ridiculously overpowered at the moment. Make your choice, either have easy game with boons or guaranteed no noed end game.


Camping. This is literally the most boring and least effective thing a killer can do. It takes 120 seconds to die on the hook. During this time the remaining 3 survivors can easily complete 4 generators. EASILY! The first chase very often takes so much time for 1 to 3 generators to be completed - most of the times if killer camps the remaining three have the option to escape for free and leave killer with 1 kill, depip in emblem system, derank and below 10k bloodpoints.

That’s boring!” Of course it is, but aren’t you hear because you hate campers? If you make them get nothing in as many games as you can they will camp less likely. Got camped? Stay on the hook - by killing yourself early you are literally helping the killer - make him waste as much time as possible.


Okay even if I wanted, how am I supposed to know that killer camps, smartass?” Use Kindred. General perk, one of the strongest since the first days of the game and already buffed twice. It let’s you see aura of all other survivors if someone is hooked and aura of the killer if her is near the hook. In addition your teammates get the same benefits when you are hooked.


How is it supposed to work when my trash teammates do nothing entire game?” Again, Kindred. You can’t force them to play good, but by giving them as much information you increase the odds of killer getting genrushed.


Tunneling: This is literally the most efficient thing a killer can do so don’t get surprised when the do try. Don’t like it? What if there was a perk… that would let you escape for free if they did..? Hmmm… Use Decisive strike?


But it only works 60 seconds and deactivates if I touch a generator, ugabuga!

If the killer tunnels you and then spends 60 seconds waiting out your decisive, the other three teammates have time to complete two full generators. If they pick you up and get hit you get a free escape. It will take them about 20 seconds to catch up to you if you just just run straight. Even more if you made it to the loop. It is a lose-lose situation for a killer who really tunnels. It does deactivate, yes, but if you have time to touch totem, gen or other survivor you are clearly not being tunneled. Oh you wanted to tap gen in his face? Too bad.


This game is about time efficiency. You may die, but by wasting so much killer’s time you make them loose as well - and isn’t it the best way to actually punish someone doing something you don’t like?


By giving up, disconnecting or killing yourself on the hook you help the killer. You do actively help player you hate so much. Don’t do it or don’t cry, because you do have tools to make them loose if they try doing that thing you hate so much. Also always try to wiggle free from the killer's grasp. They might want to bring you to a basement, scourge hook or to a beneficial location - don’t let them. Someone might even come and try to take a hit - don’t make they play go wasted.


There are many other perks like Borrowed Time (overrated in my opinion) or Kinship (underrated, but having it’s flaws and very rarely actually giving value).

I will repeat myself: Developers give you the tools to fight back and punish the thing you don’t like - if you don’t use them for whatever reason, it’s your fault. Not the game’s, not the killer’s, not your teammates… yours.


Best build for solo queue: Kindred, Small Game, Decisive + exhaustion perk or Spine Chill


Kindred to help your teammates coordinate (don’t go for save if someone else is already going to do this)

DS to waste killer’s time if they do try to tunnel. Together with Kindred it will let the other three survivors escape basically for free if they have brains, and that’s what you want, make the killer you didn’t like loose as hard as possible. They might even save you somehow and DS gives you a free escape too if gates are already opened.

Small Game: You know how many totems are in game and have an easy time finding them… what more do you need against Noed? Best soloQ anti Noed tool.

Exhaustion perks: Longer looping, even more time for your team to smash gens.

Spine Chill: Basically removes stealth killer or Tinkerer. If you don’t go down in 10 seconds without exhaustion perks it’s often way better to run this.


Final note on camping and tunneling: If the killer wants to throw a game just to kill you, they will most likely succeed. Best you can do is watch them getting genrushed and laugh at their 5k points. If you want to punish them, this is best way and by seeing how many survivor mains are actual crybabies - they most likely want the worst for the killer player. This is how you do it.

Post edited by Ssajbambusa on
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Comments

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 409

    @I_am_Negan If you can't read the title (which literally states what is the point) and didn't even take time to read through the meat of the article then I don't have answer for you.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 409

    @ThatOneDemoPlayer The only perk really needed is Kindred. You can play around many things by seeing what is everyone up to. The only killer's who sometimes counter it are PyramidHead (Cages) or Slug heavy Nurse/Pig. Other than that just running Kindred gives you more than enough information - very compareable to what SWF gives.

    Is it fair? No, everyone agrees that SWF is broken, but that's the reality we live in. Keys got dumpstered, so there is hope that devs will do something about SWF in 5 years or so.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 409

    @Marigoria You have to understand it's 4/1 type of game. You can't win it by yourself. DS gives time to the remaining trio - and a lot of it!

    DS applies pressure where it's even not in the game (Obsession is always present, no matter the perks).

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 4,058

    It's 4v1 when you're in a SWF, not solo Q.

    Why would I care that people that I dont know escaped when I get nothing for it?

  • KaitsjaKaitsja Member Posts: 557

    There isn't a perk out there that hard counters tunneling. Perks like BT and DS act as deterrants. They exist to deter the killer from tunneling, but they don't stop the killer from doing so. Sure, it's a monumental waste of their time but you aren't getting to do anything else but be chased which is kind of boring.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 409

    @Kaitsja And what do you want to do in Dead by Daylight? You can either sit on gens or be chased.

    Killer-survivor interaction is the only non boring part for me (That's why Blight is so cool, he cuts out running straight and it's just mindgames at loops the whole time).

    I don't know man, if 60 seconds of free time (per survivor) in a game which can end in 4-5 minutes does not seem strong to you then I have no idea what would. For me it is hard counter, because getting hit by a ds usually means lost game if survivors actually try to win.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 409

    @cantelope Couldn't have phrased it better myself.

  • AngyKillerAngyKiller Member Posts: 1,838

    Exactly.

    Killer wins: Screams to nerf slugging/tunneling/camping because 'they are boring'. As if the Killer is meant to create Survivor's fun at the expense of their own.

    Literally the excuses to nerf or remove or punish camping/tunneling/slugging were 'It's a boring way to play' and 'I'm bored on hook'. Yet it's not the Killer's goal to make Survivors have fun.

    Survivor's counter? It should be. Don't go for the 4K, because it's boring. Give the hatch because it's nice. Don't tryhard because it's boring. Stop being mean and Survivors will stop being mean. It's on Killer's to sacrifice first and HOPE Survivors follow suit. Except...

    Except; that never works in reverse. Ever. I have NEVER, in all my years of playing DBD, had a Survivor go 'Man, having a 4-Man escape is boring. Someone should die to the Killer so he can have fun'. The onus for 'fun' is always on the Killer. It's the Killer's fault if the Survivors are unhappy, but who cares of the Killer is unhappy, right?

  • KaitsjaKaitsja Member Posts: 557

    Being chased is fun, to a point. If it's all you're doing in the trial then it gets stale pretty quickly.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,581

    I think what @Kaitsja is trying to say is that being tunneled-off-hook until you are dead, prevents you from actually playing a game you bought. DS gives you 5 measly seconds, basically Sprint Burst + 2 seconds. Here is how tunneling-off-hook looks.

    1. You get to loop, use your exhaustion perk, use your hit-speed-burst.
    2. You get DS. You might get BT. You don't get your exhaustion perk unless you have DH or SB. You don't get your hit-speed-burst. You may get to loop if you are lucky enough to be close. If you aren't running DS, DH or SB, then your 2nd "life" has been removed.
    3. You might get BT. You don't get DS. You don't get your exhaustion perk unless it's DH or SB. You don't get your hit-speed-burst. You don't get to loop. Your entire 3rd "life" has been removed.

    If you aren't running the meta perks, DS, DH or SB, or your teammate isn't running BT, then your game is over after the 1st chase.

    Any other game you play has deterrents to camping, because it's miserable gameplay. You have safe zones, random spawns, etc. DBD needs to go back to game-design 101.

  • WarpheadWarphead Member Posts: 623

    I guess you want "Press E to activate god-mode? Maybe it should be automatic so you don't have to press E?

    WTF does hard countering tunneling even mean? After a survivor is unhooked, they can never be chased again? Uninstalling hard counters tunneling.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,581

    They want to be able to have a full gameplay state during their "2nd life". Instead they have no gameplay state if they don't have DS and a truncated gameplay state with DS. They don't even get a "3rd life" state.

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 4,058

    How is DS "god-mode"? Can you not be killed at all if you have DS?

    Uninstalling also hard counters "survivor op", yet some of you guys don't want to do it.

  • AngyKillerAngyKiller Member Posts: 1,838

    This game is too different to give 'safe zones' and 'anti-camping' mechanics, because the Killer literally has to camp to win sometimes, and Survivors would run into a safe zone with Sprint Burst and Dead Hard every time they are chased.

    If you can't understand that different games have different designs, and no boilerplate template will apply to everything, then YOU need game design 101.

    IE: Just because other games do it does not mean DBD should do it. This is a lazy excuse to demand punishments to Killer tactics so Survivors can win more easily. Nothing more.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,876

    The fundamental problem with camping is the exact same: You lock someone into a death state. And nowhere did @Munqaxus say that DBD should have safe zones or random spawns or what-have-you, but they did imply that DBD needs -some kind- of spawn deterrent, like all other games with camping problems.

    This is actually even more true of DBD, since it's asymmetrical. Camping is a lynch pin in a bunch of balancing issues. There's complaints that survivors clear their objectives too fast, but what happens if it gets slowed down? Sure, regular, 12 hook gameplay gets buffed, but not nearly as much as camping does. Killers will be more incentivised to just sit on hook and wait for the first target to die, since with slower gens, it'll pretty much guarantee a 2K or better.

    Almost any kind of buff to killers and any kind of nerf to survivors is going to benefit campers more than it's going to benefit people who play legitimately. That's why camping is such a pressing issue: It's holding not just that one survivor on the hook hostage. It's holding the entire game itself hostage.

  • AngyKillerAngyKiller Member Posts: 1,838

    By spawn-deterrent, what do you mean?

    Immunity so you can find & do gens when a match starts? That's hard fair, if the Killer finds you; you have free gen time now.

    Or immunity to being 'tunneled' when unhooked? Because there's perks for that. Anything built in would literally break the game at this point, given DH, DS, BT & Unbreakable. (Seriously; DS & Unbreakable = Killer Can't Win. They wait out DS? You stand up and run. They pick you up? You DS.)

    Or immunity to being camped? Any fix that I've ever read had massive exploits Survivors could abuse for free unhooks. To which the makers said 'That's the Killer's problem'. Which meant the fixes were less 'Play fair' and more 'Let me win, screw the other side'.


    Survivors need to let go of this 'punish tunneling/camping/slugging' because it will never go away. If a Killer wants to try to win; who gets to demand they do it 'my way'? Why do Survivors get to demand Killer tactics be removed/punished/nerfed? Why can Survivors pound out a gen in 60 seconds and say 'Killer's fault' and then get camped and say 'This is not fair'?

    Because they are the same thing; doing one's objective as efficiently as they feel is possible for the moment. Why do Survivors think they have a right to demand Killers play less efficiently? Why do they shove this bullshit under 'Fun' and 'Fair play', again, placing the onus for their 'fun' directly on how the Killer plays?

    It's nothing but a smokescreen for 'Let me win easier'.

  • deKlaw_04deKlaw_04 Member Posts: 2,607

    I feel like this discussion has been had so many time already lol. I had a Meg call me camper when they had one gen left and it was a 3 gen. I didn’t camp I went away and I got her with my shred attack. She dced😑. There are ways to counter tunneling, but it requires having a good team first and then perks second. “Strength in numbers” but if your teammates don’t take hits or try to take the chases if you are getting tunneled then that’s on your team. Ds can counter to a certain degree but killers will usually get back on them and if it’s a nurse, ds wont do much. I had feng use DS on me because I was stupid not to pay attention but I got her after. As for noed, it’s fine the way it is. Small game I don’t really like, but I use detectives hunch, circle of healing, borrowed time and lithe. Detectives is really good I like it. The only thing I dont like about noed is that you don’t have time to do bones if a killer is face camping at 5 gens because the only way to counter that is by gen rushing. I know there are people that say you can do both while a killer is camping but unless u have Probzz looping the killer after the person on hook is sacrificed, that narrative is bs.

  • FirelliusFirellius Member Posts: 1,876

    By spawn-deterrent, what do you mean?

    Sorry, that's meant to be 'camping deterrent'. My bad.

    Or immunity to being 'tunneled' when unhooked? Because there's perks for that. Anything built in would literally break the game at this point, given DH, DS, BT & Unbreakable. (Seriously; DS & Unbreakable = Killer Can't Win. They wait out DS? You stand up and run. They pick you up? You DS.)

    Yeah, there's perks, but those cost perk slots. Not exactly fair to band-aid bad design by forcing players to just give up build variety.

    And DS+UB = killer can't win? If you don't go for the unhooked target, DS never fires unless someone baits you into it. The ONLY times I ever got hit by DS is when I got baited into it and I could've easily avoided it.

    And even DS UB isn't unstoppable. So they get up with UB, then what? You're on top of them and they go down in one hit. Hardly 'unbeatable'.

    And all of this is on the premise that an anti-tunnelling measure needs to, for some godforsaken reason, leave room for the killer to continue tunnelling. It's laughable.

    Or immunity to being camped? Any fix that I've ever read had massive exploits Survivors could abuse for free unhooks. To which the makers said 'That's the Killer's problem'. Which meant the fixes were less 'Play fair' and more 'Let me win, screw the other side'.

    Aside from some of those complaints being complaints that anti-camping measures would make camping difficult; Just because a solution hasn't been found yet doesn't mean DBD doesn't -need- one.

    Survivors need to let go of this 'punish tunneling/camping/slugging' because it will never go away. If a Killer wants to try to win; who gets to demand they do it 'my way'? Why do Survivors get to demand Killer tactics be removed/punished/nerfed?

    Because, like it or not, survivors also play this game. Much like busted old DS and keys were gutted, other changes can, have and will be made to accommodate killers and improve their experience. The same can be extended to survivors. The more you entrench yourself in this idea of 'survivors shouldn't have a say in killer balance', the more you also discredit any idea for survivor nerfs.

    Less 'us vs them', more 'how can we make the game better?'.

    Why can Survivors pound out a gen in 60 seconds and say 'Killer's fault' and then get camped and say 'This is not fair'?

    Because gens need to go this fast precisely because of camping. Because if you make gens slower, camping becomes stronger. Exactly as I said: Camping is the lynchpin to almost ALL of DBD's balancing problems. A TON of things that would make the game MUCH better cannot happen as long as camping still exists, because camping would just scale out of control.

    It's nothing but a smokescreen for 'Let me win easier'.

    You are literally advocating for the lowest possible effort strategy a killer can employ, buddy. Do you really think you have any kind of high ground here?

  • cantelopecantelope Applicant Posts: 343

    Well, most fps games can involve a lot of walking to an objective to get sniped from the other end of the map with a knife. Would you consider it playing the game you bought if every time you got downed there was 30-45 seconds of running back to the trial.

    Also many of those other games play extremely different that dbd. The only way to change this would be to scrap the entire game and make a new one. Especially since, as I've said in other threads, the frequency of someone being called a camper/tunneler/swf/hacker when they aren't is much higher than you think.

    You'd have to build the game around protecting players from making bad plays, and I garuntee they'd still happen, and they still be blamed on camping/tunneling/swf/hacker.

  • StarrseedStarrseed Member Posts: 889

    Honest question: do you maybe have some ideas to prevent tunneling camping?

    Every time all you read is so ridiculous or can be abused so easy I really like to discuss some honest ideas that don't come out of a pit of surv bias and killer hate

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