The first part is an ongoing argument, so I'll pass that.
As for claiming 'Gens speeds are fast because Killers camp'; you have it backwards: Killers started camping when they realized gens were going faster. But there you are; blaming Killers for Survivor's actions and 'fun'.
I've been in the game since launch; Killers rarely camped, because camping sucked, at the start. Until gen speeds sped up, thanks to perks and toolkits and an overall optimizing of Survivor's gameplay loops. At that point, Killers realized they HAD to get kills ASAP to slow down gen speeds, not trade hooks.
Show me anywhere where devs said 'We made gen speeds faster to compensate for camping'? You can't. Which means gen speeds WERE NOT optimized because Killers camp. Instead, since gens can only go so fast, it's more likely that Killers adopted new strats as Survivors got faster thanks to perks, items, addons, and a general building of personal skill.
But, of course, you look at the problem, blame Killers, then say it's Killers that must be punished/nerfed to fix it, then try to say 'But we should not do Us Vs Them' right after you did Us Vs Them.
And for 'advocating for the lowest possible effort strategy a killer can employ'.
There's that peer pressure. Shame Killers into avoiding tactics Survivors deem 'unacceptable', so they won't do them. Because Survivors feel they have this divine right to determine how their opponent plays. And if they can't scream for nerfs, they will use peer pressure, insults, and subtext (Camping is what BAD killers do! (Unsaid: You don't want to be a BAD killer, right?)) to alter their opponents behavior.
Even if you don't want to 'us vs them' the discussion; you sure do still partake of it while trying to demand I should not.
@Firellius is right, gen speeds have to be adjusted for the most effective tactic. The most effective tactic is tunneling-off-hook and camping, so gen speeds have to be adjust to that tactic. Killers have always camped and tunneled-off-hook, it's nothing new.
Fixing tunneling-off-hook and camping doesn't punish the Killer because Killers find it unfun to use these tactics also. Why do you think it's a punishment to fix tunneling-off-hook and camping while also reducing gen-speeds and healing speeds? Also, you have to remember tunneling-off-hook and camping is disproportionately worse for survivors than it is for Killers. However, it's bad for both sides.
Again, @Firellius is right about it being the lowest possible tactic. It's something Killers learn, even before they learn each killers power. Why should Killers be rewarded for something that doesn't require any effort. Shouldn't Killers be rewarded for actually doing something, such as successfully mind-gaming, which is far more tactical than sitting in front of a survivors face.
You have to remember that Survivors reward camping. Survivor mains ignore this fact to whine and complain, but if I camp, and Survivors don't pound those gens as fast as possible to prevent me from getting a 2,3, or 4K? Or if they come and camp the hook and wait for me to leave?
That is their fault.
Why should Killers be punished for 'camping' when it's Survivors who reward it? Oh, right; because Survivors are outright demanding the Killer shoulder the entire onus for the game being fun, at the expense of them winning. Survivors can genrush. Survivors can crouch-spam and use flashlight macros. Survivors can bully and BHVR says 'This is okay'.
But Killers camping, and Survivors rewarding it by hiding near the hook and DEMANDING they get free unhooks? That's just unfair, and all Killer's faults and why don't Killers think of Survivor's fun, and etc. etc.
'Why should Killers be rewarded for a tactic that requires no effort?" Rofl, the bias is large with you.
'I don't think this tactic is hard enough, so why should Killers benefit?' Once again; demanding Killers play in a way you approve of simply because you say so. That they should have to work harder for their kills because you don't want 'Easy tactics' rewarded.
If you can't see the massive bias in your entire post, then I don't need to try countering it, because nothing will get through to you.
The very first PTB involved anti-camping measures. You can keep thinking that killers are perfect little angels, but they're not all interested in a fair game, and some aren't interested in pushing themselves for a big win.
Who's talking about gens being sped up?
I'm talking about how the devs CAN'T slow gens down, because it'll directly buff camping. Hard.
I'm pitting things against a flaw in game design, not against killers. I am constantly saying that we could improve things for killers if camping were to be removed. From the get go, I mentioned that camping is upholding balancing issues. That includes things working AGAINST the killers. That's why I'm going on the 'gen speeds can't be slowed because of camping' angle. It's a buff for killers, but it's hamstrung by camping.
My entire argument is trying to figure out how to nerf campers so we can buff killers, and you're saying I just want to nerf killers!?
YOU came barging into this thread to shame people for wanting camping fixed. YOU came in here to try and peer pressure people into dropping an argument for improved game design.
Because you're not reading any arguments. Any word against camping you immediately turn into 'Survivor want killers nerfed' with zero nuance. You don't bother trying to invest yourself in the discussion, you don't bother exploring other perspectives. You just immediately jump to the conclusion that the survivors must want killers nerfed and survivors buffed.
THIS is why we're not getting anywhere. This kind of attitude has people aiming a loaded gun at the other side and saying 'You drop yours first, and I'll totally drop mine after'.
No. Both sides will have to make concessions if this game wants to have any chance of improving.
I'll say 2 things:
If they don't fix both at the same time, in the same patch, one side or the other will riot. Either Killers will be stuck with 5 minute games and the inability to secure game-changing kills, or Survivors will have games drawn out while Killers camp.
And, honestly, I don't know if BHVR can do it. Not slinging mud, but they kind of have a history of speed-changing Killer's powers/perks ASAP while slowly adjusting Survivor's perks. Maybe that's why so many Killers don't see a change forthcoming; because it won't be an equal change, and will skew the game so hard for months, if not years.
Just look at this healy-boon; both sides seem to agree it's OP...And nothing has been changed. But I have a feeling, had it been a Killer perk? Within 7 days, there would have been a patch.
And I fully agree with both of those rules. The game needs a one-shot overhaul that lowers the stakes for both sides, so that killers can take a breather and survivors don't have to deal with tactics that see them locked out of play.
It's definitely not going to be easy, and yeah, it's doubtful BHVR can do it. They made -this- MMR system, for pete's sake! But if, somehow, they managed to do it, they absolutely need to nerf/buff both sides, equivalently, at the same time.
I understand that you are highly emotional in your arguments and that you falsely believe people want to make Killers completely useable. However, the people you are talking to play both sides, Killer and Survivor. We tend to have a better understanding of the game than people who sololy play Killer and tend to be a lot less biased on one side or the other.
From someone who plays both sides, I want to be able to play Killer without needing to still in front of a survivors face until that survivor is dead. I much prefer to win my games with much higher skill tactics such as mind-gaming. However, since there are killers like you, that prefer to use face-camping and tunneling-off-hook, then that puts pressure on us Killer players who want to play different because the game is tuned to your style of play.
I want gen-speeds to be slowed down so that there is much more survivor vs killer interaction, chases and mind-gaming. However, I understand the game is balanced right now. Because the game is balanced, I also understand that the Killer side has to give up something to get something. I would like to give up tunneling-off-hook and face-camping, because I, as Killer, find it extremely unfun. If you enjoy face-camping, then I understand you defending it but I think there's a lot of Killer players that really don't enjoy it and would like gen speeds slowed down.
I would explain the survivor issues with face-camping and tunneling-off-hook, but I see that you only understand the Killer side. So hopefully, I explained this from your perspective so you can understand it better.
Honestly, and I don't see this happening, as it's a complete game overhaul; Remove the hooks.
When the Killer downs you; he kills you. His murdering of you feeds the Entity. And then then Entity forces you back onto the map.
By which I mean a Survivor can run around as an invisible ghost, and can see the map, but not: Living Survivors, the Killer, Totems, or Killer traps. (This is to prevent the Survivor from spying on the Killer using Discord while dead).
The Survivor then has 60 seconds to run around (Time can be adjusted), and can spawn in sooner if they want. Upon spawning, they are immune to being killed for either 30 seconds (can be adjusted. This is to make it take too long for a Killer to want to tunnel them), or until they: Drop a pallet, disarm a Killer trap, interact with a gen or totem.
Each Survivor must be killed 3 times (can be adjusted via balancing, bearing in mind the Killer is also wasting time in kill animations).
Gen speeds would probably not even have to be nerfed by much, given Survivors would be 'dead' quicker (you're cutting out carrying & hooking).
And it would add weight to being caught; you're not hooked & waiting to be rescued. You're dead and waiting to respawn.
They will say these things are ok because you can counter them, usually YOU can't. The counter is being in a swf on comms with meta perks or if in soloq hoping the killer is really bad or your teammates aren't really bad. In soloq these things are not usually counterable. Even if you're "lucky" in soloq and get a 3man swf, they're more than likely to sandbag and leave you to die.
I think the removed carry/hook time would be cancelled out by the fact that none of the survivors have to invest time in rescuing their teammate though, so I think you'd still have to nerf gen speeds a bit.
I personally wouldn't really like this idea, because I enjoy sneaking my way past the killer to go for a safe unhook, but I can see it working. I think VHS does something like this.
This is one of the reasons I'm moving to VHS the moment it comes out.
I feel like the main thing holding this game back and causing multiple balance issues is hooks.
If camping and tunneling bother you and ruin your day, take a break from survivor for like a week. Play some killer. Maybe civ.
Or just... run Kindred and DS... and completely counter it...
I was indeed trying to say something along these lines. I wanted to elaborate on it further, but it was 3am where I live at the time of my post which made it rather difficult.
Tunneling is an extremely strong tactic that is either efficient or will net you a 1k at best depending on how good the survivor you're tunneling is.
Unfortunately, it's also boring to play against. Yes, the chase is fun but only to the extent that you want to be able to do more than just be chased.
Tunneling isn't hard countered by any perk. DS - Killer will continue to tunnel. BT - Wait out the 12 seconds or just hit and continue tunneling. Survivors can do everything 'right' in terms of playing against tunneling and the killer will still be assured a 1k at the very least while the survivor who was tunneled out of the game had a miserable, frustrating experience. They didn't have fun, to say the least.
To alleviate and discourage tunneling, two things need to happen. The first is that the killer should be encouraged to target other survivors. Something like a small BP bonus for going after a different survivor. The second is that the best way to make tunneling less frequent is to have a perk like Babysitter (Now known as Guardian) be basekit for survivors.
The way Guardian currently works is great and would help alleviate tunneling, but if it were to be basekit then I would want the old effect back where it would reveal the killer's aura to the unhooker, and show the unhooker's aura to the killer.
@Kaitsja Tunneling is hard countered by DS, because it gives enough time for three other people to escape basically for free if they actually try. Killer throws a game if they tunnel, eat ds and keep chasing (You still can run and go loop some tiles after stabbing the killer, you know?).
It is a 4vs1 game, not 1vs1 so stop looking at it like it was 1vs1.
Your change to Guardian is also bad, because it was already a thing and what it basically did was hiding the unhooked survivor so they could stealth a bit while also telling the killer that it did so (aura reading of unhooking)... You can't stealth when game annouces that you stealth. Right now Guardian is better than BT, but people refuse to use it for some reason.
If you want to know the real issue with solo Q, you just nailed it.
Lot of people who decide since they queued alone, they aren't really in a team.
Prior to swf, it was common for survivor players to communicate with one another using points, crouches and the like. Now? If they didn't come in as a group, they see no reason to care about their teammates. That's not the fault of swf being too powerful, it's the fault of people playing a team game without any sense of teamwork.
@Marigoria Well this explains a lot :).
Yes, it is a real issue to get left to die on hook even when you have kindred and the killer isnt camping.
Yes, it is a real issue when you're dead on hook and the claudette who hasnt even been hooked yet doesn't try to take aggro.
Can you tell that person how they could have done better as a team?
As someone who plays mostly altruistic, and I dont have an issue with dying because MMR doesnt affect me in crossplay off, I think you're seeing my comment as something that isn't my particular trait, but as a mindset a lot of players have.
If it does, please do explain.
You played since the beginning where gens could be done in a few seconds and you think its gen rushing now lmao
Man, you quote my almost 3 week old post to say...absolutely nothing of value?
Also; where did I say 'genrushing'? And when I DO mention 'genrushing', I'm just using the term people know. I've even said that 'genrushing' as a concept is as fake as 'camping'; both are either side doing what they feel is the best way to complete their goals. And both terms are just the other side trying to add a false stigma; an idea that winning 'too fast' is toxic.