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Let's imagine ourselves as a DBD dev. Why in the world would you make the changes that they make?



  • KayTwoAyyKayTwoAyy Member Posts: 615

    The reason thematics is as important as balance is because a character's theme is the reason you play them--it is their identity.

    Balance is such an iterative process; it is a lot of trial and error, looking at data, listening to feedback, etc. If you just follow that process wherever it leads, the final result can end up very far from where you started. Identity is the captain that stears the ship.

    So when any developers are designing a game (or elements within a game), all the changes they make are held up against the game's identity and asked "does this change your identity?"

    If yes, then they go back to the drawing board and try to find a better solution.

    Sometimes, in the case of Freddy, the developers will decide to abandon an identity and establish a new one.

  • SmukSmuk Member Posts: 735

    Exactly. Cornered Jane in a loop, zombie was comming for her. Sweet how can it be better

    plot twist: zombie gets stuck into a rock close to a loop.

    BHVR is obviously having issues. Either the game lead has no idea what he is doing, or majority of developers are juniors, so in other words, they have no idea what they are doing

  • The_Medicine_ManThe_Medicine_Man Member Posts: 65

    Hello, I like money.

  • TeabaggingGhostfaceTeabaggingGhostface Member Posts: 1,550

    At least i can give 2 survivors hats with amandas letter now

  • AxxAxx Member Posts: 386

    If I only viewed the game with average players in mind, the things they do make total sense.

  • GreyBigfootGreyBigfoot Member Posts: 585

    They look at the numbers, see that Marvin's Blood is the most used addon by a large margin. Then they nerf it and say: "Everyone's using these select few addons, they must be overpowered"

    When in reality they're just the best addons there are, when none of them are particularly great.

  • TheOptimiserTheOptimiser Member Posts: 138

    To grab more cash from the newbies and p*ss off veterans even more. otherwise no logical person would ever run their game like they do...

  • SmukSmuk Member Posts: 735
  • UlfbertoUlfberto Member Posts: 11

    trying to think as a dbd dev... i think they nerfed the most used nemesis addons so the less used have more space after buff. But they still useless imo and id rather use a consistent nerfed addon than a situational buffed one.

  • AnneBonnyAnneBonny Member Posts: 1,522

    it's easier to sell band-aid fixes in the form of new perks/killers than to fix the mountain of bad decisions and incompetence you built up

  • HaddixHaddix Member Posts: 865
    edited January 4

    Marvin's blood did not remove or significantly change his identity.

    If something slightly alters the identity that Game Designer #4 intended, then its position in the game should be assessed. First of all, to a degree, we have to recognize that addons are intended to change the killer's identity. It's when they go too far is when they're problematic (i.e extremely transformative to the point where the killer is FAR different in a way that's not very healthy).

    Is it stripping the killer from their entire identity? No.

    If it WERE to, could that "new identity" be adopted as an improvement on the original? Sure thing, because game design as a whole is an iterative process.

    Is it unbalanced? No.

    Is it widely agreed upon that it feels bad to play against? No.

    Is it too transformative? No.

    Is it even really TALKED about? No.

    Is it used a lot? Yes.

    Is it used a lot because it makes Nemesis far too strong of a character? No.

    Is it used a lot because it's a useful add-on that's more appealing than the other weak links in the addon set? Likely.

    Is Game Designer #4 very happy that it doesn't PERFECTLY align with the identity that they intended Nemesis to have? Sure! What should we do about it? Give them a "too bad."

    Why "too bad?" Because there are so. many. other. places. to direct focus, time, and thought towards; things that THOUSANDS of people are asking for, not just one person in BHVR's office. This change is meaningless. It's unnecessary as hell. So are all of the others that I listed.

    I'm not here to talk about Marvin's Blood my friend. That's one teeny tiny little piece of the much bigger picture that shines a light on the awful design philosophy that BHVR has. I'm done talking about Marvin's Blood. We disagree. That'll be all.

  • WishIcouldmainWishIcouldmain Member Posts: 3,862
    edited January 4

    Truly I don’t think the devs are biased they’re just very inconsistent. Take last chapter you decide to nerf Wraith for being a wee bit OP. Then bring back viable three blink Nurse because that’s not as strong apparently. Including this update buffing a Blight add-on because he needs it apparently. While nerfing Twins add-ons because they obviously are too strong in current DBD

  • HaddixHaddix Member Posts: 865
    edited January 4

    Agreed. They don't have a bias when they have very little to base their bias on in the first place. Their understanding doesn't come from being some survivor main, killer main, or some enlightened centrist main. Their understanding comes from inconsistent numbers that are ever-changing. They don't pave the road that they follow when it comes to balance, they let numbers do that for them. Meanwhile, everyone else here that DOES play this video game expects them to do the same as they would, which is to NOT blindly follow numbers and instead use good experience alongside statistics to make genuinely good decisions. That's why this whole community gets fed up so much. We have more first-hand experience and understanding than they do.

  • MrPeanutbutterMrPeanutbutter Member Posts: 713
    edited January 4

    At this point, nobody should be surprised. BHVR now has a pretty consistent track record of making changes that seemingly nobody has been asking for and ignoring major issues that are frequently raised by streamers and people on the forums. Is there some secret group of people that don’t stream or comment on the forums that BHVR exclusively relies on for feedback? That’s the only explanation.

    I don’t think this is going to change until people stop playing the game. Until then, they’re just going to do whatever TF they want.

  • KayTwoAyyKayTwoAyy Member Posts: 615

    The bigger picture is that they have a vision for each killer, and they adjust add-ons based on that vision. ...as was the case with Marvin's Blood.

    You're looking for a reason. I told you the reason.

    Apparently, you prefer to just assumed BHVR is a studio filled with idiots.

  • HaddixHaddix Member Posts: 865
    edited January 5

    You're looking for a reason. I told you the reason.

    You did not, and I stated this. I'm looking for a reason as to why all of these meaningless changes are prioritized.

    Apparently, you prefer to just assumed BHVR is a studio filled with idiots.

    Nope. I'd prefer not to throw snarky comments at each other either, so keep them to yourself. I'm not insulting your intelligence or your deductions, and I actually validated the reason (for individual changes) that you provided. It makes SENSE for BHVR to use "identity" as reasoning to change things regardless of their place in the overall balance of the game or character, even if I don't personally agree with that reasoning. However, as I said, you're missing my overall point. It's not about Marvin's Blood or Toy Sword and the individual cases as to why they were changed, it's about priority and how it's been consistently bad, confusing, insulting, and out-of-touch with the community for a very long time now, and, since you introduced your argument, given that you're correct in your assumption about the value they place on the identity of characters, why they'd value identity and the minuscule, time-wasting changes they're making to adjust their personal visions for the game over balance when balance and the health of the game are far more of an issue at the current moment.

    It's like a surgeon who's fixing a broken toe and treating a cut on the leg while a brain is leaking blood, with a whole room of people behind them SCREAMING to just address the brain. Sure, maybe fixing that broken toe and patching up that little cut on the leg would be good things to address later on, but you cannot deny that the leaking brain is far more of a problem, and neither can you blame all of those other people in the room for getting more frustrated for every minute the surgeon ignores that problem.

    I hope you understand my point this time around.

  • KayTwoAyyKayTwoAyy Member Posts: 615

    I really didn't intend for that to be a snarky comment. Was just my observation that you threw my response out the window and posed the same question over again.

    Your point is much more clear now.

    I agree with you, I think they do a pretty poor job responding to problems (even glaring ones), and they have a history of releasing content that is incredibly tone-deaf. I don't work for BHVR, so obviously I don't know what their internal structure looks like, and how that effects the game's development, but whatever process they do have in place is wildly inefficient.

    The second half of the developer notes are all changes I probably would have thought up on the drive over to the office. An hours worth of work at most. These are the kind of changes I think they should be implementing every week, because they are easy number changes to program and the worst that happens is they break the game for a week--instead of months where we all scream and shout and wait until the next major bug fix.

    But when it comes to listening to community feedback, I think there is a major case of "too many cooks in the kitchen." There are a lot of strong opinions on this forum, and very few people seem interested in having an actual conversation.

    Just look at the Feedback page on these forums. Its dead. No one actually wants to discuss potential improvements to the game or promote community-made ideas. Its no wonder that so many feedback-related posts are created in General Discussions, because everyone knows their ideas are Dead on Arrival in Feedback.

    As a result, there is no real serious discussion happening on these forums.

    It must be really difficult for the devs to filter out the noise, especially when mods are constantly punting conversations over to Feedback that are far from constructive.

    BHVR missed the boat when they decided not to use Fog Whisperers as consultants. Not only are Fog Whisperers playing their game as a full-time job, but they are directly interacting with the community. They may not always have the best ideas, but they've got their finger on the pulse.

  • SaitamfedSaitamfed Member Posts: 1,453

    The simplest reason is the following one: Because there's no game like DbD... and even if a game like that is developed, DbD has years on it which the new game will lack of, being that said, people won't purchase the "No DbD" game because it's in an early state. Without money and a big player base, a game won't be able to survive.

  • Stardust_WraithStardust_Wraith Member Posts: 6
    edited January 5

    It's pretty obvious that Healing Circle needs to be reworked, it's so good that not running it in a full SWF just feels wrong. I would personally love a rework to Distortion rather than a buff. I want a way to counter aura reading in game that isn't limited to tokens given to me at the start of the game. There should instead be a token earning system and the survivors only start with one or two tokens. Having to compete against built in wallhacks is just not fun for me. (Also, I feel Shadowstep doesn't counter aura reading well enough, that that Distortion actually doesn't really need to hide scratch marks to be good)

    Another slight buff I would like is to pause the Lucky Break timer while you are healing.

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,446

    I am going to make it very easy for you to understand:

    Players rated matches against those addons to be generally unfun across the board, while other addons had mixed/fun matches across the board.

    DBD is a party game, fun will always be a priority over competitive balance. If you could steamroll an entire game, but everytime you play it, players loved it, those addons would never be nerfed, even if competitively seen, they'd be absolutely broken.

    I have played some very broken combo's, but everytime I played them, players loved it(killers and survivors alike). Never seen any of those combo's being nerfed. I've played some very boring builds, players hated it(killers and survivors alike) and not too long after, at least 1 of those components were changed.

    The biggest reason CoH might not have been nerfed, is simply because the maches had mixed responses in terms of fun. Even if they were the common denominator in unfun matches, there were plenty of fun matches where they could have been the common denominator.

    When playing as a solo survivor, I dont consider CoH to be busted. I need to be able to get healed in some way. Circle of Healing is effectively a way for me to run somewhere, patch myself up and be able to come back, making a boring match with a camper and/or tunneler significantly more fun. But playing as an SWF, CoH can vary between useless and absolutely busted depending on the map, my teams positioning etc.

    It's easy to see that once you look at the nerfs, fun ratings make a lot of those changes make sense.

    DMS probably didnt see much use, and the time it was used, the results were unfun matches from both sides. Since its not used much, the conclusion must be that it's too hard to use. Mikaels Eye saw almost unanimous use, but most of the matches werent rated to be fun, and matches without it were considerably more fun to play against, but not to play as. So the conclusion there would be to make Mikaels Eye's effect a bit harder to use, while making addons that are fun to play against stronger to be easier to pull off.

    So if you despise CoH truly as much as you do now, to the point of thinking that hearing a boon activate instantly ruins the fun in your game, rate it 1/5.

  • HaddixHaddix Member Posts: 865
    edited January 5

    I have almost nothing to say but you hit the nail on the head. All extremely good points.

    Though I don't greatly value the opinions of fog whisperers like others, you once again made a great point that even if they're not all-knowing geniuses, they definitely can come close to good ideas, and with enough collaboration with the community and amongst themselves, the Fog Whisperers who ARE most passionate and knowledgable about balance (and not just balance, because sometimes things are balanced but unhealthy) could've absolutely been a GREAT resource for the devs. FAR more than their current data is. As you say, the forums definitely hold some civil, constructive discussions, but they're DROWNED by how much garbage is on here. Filtering that feedback through knowledgeable members of the community and having it relayed it to the devs would do so much good for us (if it's actually listened to).

    Whether or not you like the idea of content creators having so much influence (I'm someone who usually heavily opposes that), it's either that or this, and I would prefer that any day given it was a GOOD system that gives thorough, valuable feedback for the devs to use. It'd be a huge improvement over what we have now. I hope there's still an opportunity for this someday, but I fear it's incredibly unlikely or impossible at this point.

  • anarchy753anarchy753 Member Posts: 3,799

    The way I imagine their decision making is this;

    There is a large dartboard with pictures of various perks, add ons, and characters pinned all over it. They then take a handful of darts, some green for buffs, and some red for nerfs, and then (blindfolded of course) begin to throw the darts, and whatever they hit gets adjusted accordingly.

  • Stealthyfeng123Stealthyfeng123 Member Posts: 61

    Thats the sad truth , sadly that dead by daylight has by far far far the worst devs ever i just say the sbmm instand of just using the old matchmaking and just lock the rangs that only people have to play with the rang red,purple,gren, as example but no they totally ignore everything what the most people want in that game like always since the game came out

  • SakurraSakurra Member Posts: 962

    Because they are bored

  • GhosteGhoste Member Posts: 1,513

    I don't have much to say, just that I agree with many of the comments made here. The balancing decisions in this patch make absolutely no sense, and it's frustrating.

  • RezblazeRezblaze Member Posts: 818

    I can imagine I don't want to spend 12 hours a day on overtime testing every ######### addon for bugs, gameplay fixes, balance issues, etc. etc.

    Fact is, time is a factor. And they have so many killers to do passes on that whoever is in charge of balancing addons I don't envy. Because they have to really prioritize and only get a few months to adjust dozens of addons.

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