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What is skill or a win? The Lead Game Designer knows it the best

MineguyMineguy Member Posts: 318




  • GwintyGwinty Member Posts: 806

    Okay, let me do the same thing to you, you did to me with this post...just to show the fallacy of one of your statements...

    So you are also saying that while you are looping the Killer I should not hold M1 and slam that sweet generator? Okay, noted. Next match I will do fancy stuff like cleansing dulls, opening chests and try to tank a hit even thou I am pretty ######### at looping. If that is what is more appreciated...

    What I am saying thou is that holding M1 on a generator is the right thing. Leaving you to die when you get facecamped by Bubba is the right thing and leaving the match when the Killer has NoeD and I can not find it on any totem I saw during the match is also the right thing.

    Sometimes altruism is going to get you killed and egoism is the right call.

    I never said that "team performance" should not get included in your MMR result. This is a team effort after all and the system should be improved in this point.

    But tell me: Do you really want that number to go up so that you face more face-camping Bubbas with NoeD, Nurses with Infectious Fright/Ruin/Pop/Scourge, tunneling Blights with Alchemist Ring and other sweaty stuff like that?

  • WesCravenFanWesCravenFan Member Posts: 1,095
    edited January 21

    They are more skilled at doing the objective of escaping, yes.

    The problem with the whole "But I ran the Killer for 5 gens" argument is that if you managed to run a killer for 5 gens, they were a bad killer. And if they are a bad killer that means you likely had LOTS of chances to evade the killer. But no, the 5 gen runners do not WANT to evade the killer. They want to stay in chase the whole game "because gens are boring".

    So yes, if you want to willfully ignore the objective on purpose because all you want to do is stay in chase, you are ignoring the objective. What you really mean is you want to get rewarded for chases. Which are not an objective.

  • GwintyGwinty Member Posts: 806

    Right, you did not.

    Just as I did not say that "survivors who managed to hold M1 for ~5 minutes and then run out the exit gate unopposed are clearly much more skilled.". Just because I say A is false does not mean I say B is right. You never said that I should leave generators. This was just for showing the hole in the argument.

    Now I do not care how many people make an argument. Just because 100 people say 1+1=3 does not make it true.

    The problem we have comes form the assumption that it should be a "skill based" matchmaking. I suggest a rebrand "kill based" matchmaking would be much better. True it does not measure skill as much as we want. But what results does it archive?

    As said: The camping Bubba will face the sweaty 4 person SWF. The chilled Clown who plays for hooks will go up against chilled 2-2 lobbies and it is fair because both sides have the same premise of putting "fun" over "winning".

    Skill should not matter here because clearly the Clown shows off more skill than out friendly Cannibal. However would you want their positions changed?

    People say they want to put opponents of equal skill against each other. However that would only result in a fair match if both sides do not hold back and bring their absolute best. 4 person SWF with full mambo-jumbo against meta-nurse with no holds barren and we can put the opponents together by measuring skill.

    Not so for out clowny friend. Even if he is tons more skilled his self set boundary when playing against an equally skilled opponent will have him crushed before he can even whip his knife a single time.

  • SmukSmuk Member Posts: 735

    I just quoted Patricks words from the stream yday, with addition to bench guy

  • El_GingeroEl_Gingero Member Posts: 1,147

    This is very easy to refute and there’s no need to overcomplicate things.

    How do we define skill? Does it not depend on your objective? Looping a good killer for 5 gens undoubtedly takes skill, however if your goal is to simply escape, and matchmaking is based on escapes, then isn’t it technically more skilful to hide while your less competent teammates do all the busy work?

    No. It is not. Don’t be ridiculous.

  • JawsIsTheNextKillerJawsIsTheNextKiller Member Posts: 3,073

    Always a good idea to keep your MMR low if you create juking videos.

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 1,534

    If you're done being a contrarian, the topic is about a comment that being able to run the killer for 5 gens is not skillful if you don't escape the match. You went on a rant about how you agree and how anyone who disagrees must be wrong, starting with

    "Why do you think he is wrong?

    Just making fun about this quote does nothing and people who get fed up with it are mostly not bothering to talk about the point."

    To which I gave the self evident counterargument. I implied nothing. I didn't put any words in your mouth. You're just looking to rant at people for dunking on a notoriously bad take from a dev (which almost feels like a tradition at this point in this game.)

  • WesCravenFanWesCravenFan Member Posts: 1,095

    Then get out of chase. Stop teabagging. Stop waiting at the pallet. Stop intentionally keeping the killer on you just to waste his time. You may find it fun, and that is your choice, but if you want to do other things you should make efforts to escape the chase. The game is intended, by the developer's own words, to be stealth based.

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 1,534

    I don't teabag, and i actually use pallets as sparingly as i can. Actually gets me in trouble a lot. I don't do any of the toxic youtube video stuff you seem to be implying I do. A lot of killers just dont feel confident anymore, and if 2-3 gens fly during a chase they tend to hunker down and try to secure 1-2 kills, which leads to the tunneling.

  • TaingaranTaingaran Member Posts: 260

    But it won't really bring you victory. But it will bring victory to your team!

    But there is also another opinion. If you ran through the killer 5 gens, then this is not your skill. This is the killer's mistake. So skill is subjective.

  • SonzaishinaiSonzaishinai Member Posts: 6,183

    Well for starters he's looking and judging it from a single game.

    Yes running the killer for 5 gens and then dying lowering your mmr is odd. But that's not what happens the mayority of the games.

    Sorry but in my experience both survivor and killer side the person who runs the killer for 5 gens typically is the person who runs out of the exit gates protected by 2 people bodyblocking, BT ,DS and a person standing at the gate ready to open it at any time.

    It happens in solo that your teammates just leave you behind but that is a edge case scenario. That's not how the 5 gen chases typically end.

    And you know when they do end like that most of the time. If, despite 3 survivors being free to do gens as fast as possible, every single recourse on the map is gone.

    Now this may just be me but running from loop to loop insta throwing every pallets and getting lucky the killer doesn't break off and the other survivors were actually efficient on gens also doesn't sound like the epitome of skill to me.

    Does the player that ran the killer around the game map and threw all 25 pallets despite the game only taking 4 minutes have skill and deserves to gain mmr despite dying?

    It's easy to find edge case scenarios where a system doesn't work. Just like it was easy for me to find a edge case where mmr wouldn't work if based on chase time.

    Or how it was easy for the dev to find the edge case of 8 hooks and all survivors escape means suddenly everybody wins vs the mmr based on hooks. No system will ever be without flaws

    All in all post like this only feed negativity and further drive the community and the devs appart.

    Dowsey indeed isn't entirelly wrong. But this isn't helping either

  • EmealEmeal Member Posts: 1,410

    Seems Dowsey does not know what averages are. Seems most of the Community don't either.

    If you are so god like, you will escape the majority of your matches anyway, so you will get higher MMR.

    This Community is just depressing. Demanding a system that takes potentially an unlimited possibilities into account, while averages do the job.

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