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How wrong is Otz about Michael?

hailxsatanxeveryxdayhailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 336

I really enjoy Otz' tier lists in general and think he has a lot of insight into the game, but I also don't think he's given Mikey a fair chance. His latest tier video doesn't even address the biggest add-on buff Michael has had in his history: Vanity Mirror.

When used correctly, this can make Myers as uncounterable as Nurse. The buff removes the previous speed penalty from VM, which allows one to see through walls a la Cracked Mirror at the expense of T3 no longer existing (and T3 is an afterthought to any experienced Michael player, anyway). It has a lower field of vision than Cracked Mirror (16m vs 32m) and it requires you to stalk your way up to T2 before it's even usable, but combined with the right add-ons, it's one of the most broken things in the entire game.

When combined with M&A and Dead Rabbit, it's practically unstoppable. You have practically no terror radius, but without the speed penalty of Cracked Mirror. You know where survivors are, but survivors don't know where you are, and there's nothing they can do about it. That leaves you with three slots for meta perks (I personally recommend Ruin, Undying, and either A Nurse's Calling or NOED).

To his credit, Otz does mention that one of Michael's addons (Tomstone Piece) is "particularly busted", and it's a game-changer as well. It can be used to immediately take any survivor of one's choice out of the game, although the stalk requirement is insane, and you do need to . Still, that one can also win you entire games if applied correctly.

The iridiscent Tombstone addon is definitely powerful, but the speed penalty and stalk requirement mean that you're not going to get much use out of it. On the other hand, Tuft is an incredibly powerful addon with the right build, and very few of Michael's addons are entirely useless.

Thoughts?

How wrong is Otz about Michael? 13 votes

100% wrong.
23%
Kill_Yr_Idol83GarlicRiceDyingWish92 3 votes
200% wrong.
7%
Bennett_They1Them 1 vote
250% wrong.
0%
Otz just plain has no idea what he's talking about.
23%
BoobaPSPRoarbear2007 3 votes
If QAnon, racial realists, MRAs, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, Deepak Chopra, and the Time Cube guy all teamed up to form a think tank, they couldn't possibly be more wrong than Otz is about Michael.
46%
brokedownpalaceThr_ustGuiltiihailxsatanxeveryxdayShakeyGamesBothSidesEnjoyer 6 votes

Comments

  • IlliterateGenocideIlliterateGenocide Member Posts: 3,110

    While i think hes the stronger of the 2. ghostface and micheal. i still dont think hes really that strong.

  • SuzuKRSuzuKR Member Posts: 2,008
    edited January 15

    Vanity Mirror does not change the fact he has zero mobility, an awful basekit, and zero actual good anti loop basekit. Even with Vanity Mirror, it is literally useless if people realize you have it and just outpace you with distance.

  • CrowmanCrowman Member Posts: 4,243

    I understand you like Myers, but he honestly does not have much going for him.

    While being able to instant down survivors is strong, he does not have mobility to help him control the map nor does he really have much else to help him end chases faster. The larger lunge and faster vault simply force survivors to drop pallets earlier rather than end chases at that moment.

    Vanity Mirror is a fun addon, but I wouldn't say it makes Myers better.

  • FFirebranddFFirebrandd Member Posts: 2,000
    edited January 15

    So... here's the deal. Myers actually does have a lot going for him. The issue is that most of it is his stealth or stealth -> insta down. Stealth isn't going to help you on maps like Ormond, Shelter Woods, all 5 Badhams, and Eyre of Crows. All of those maps are very open, with long sight lines and several are stupidly bright so Myers sticks out like a sore thumb.

    To make things even worse... Hawkins was pretty good for him but it doesn't exist. The Game used to be good for him until its rework at which point he can't do anything on the 2nd floor. A few of the old Coldwind maps were good for him but the new ones all *suck*. Things like Midwich and RPD could be good for him, but if he has Boons that can ruin things. Honestly the Realm Beyond has overall been a massive nerf to Myers.

    Overall, his power can be brutally effective, but most maps do him zero favors. But... he kinda needs them to.

  • ElcopolloElcopollo Member Posts: 651

    His Iri addons are busted, but it's not fair to judge killer for his Iri addons solely - the idea that killers use Iri addons every single match is unrealistic at best. Tombstone is a tool, not a basekit, its existence doesn't make Myers strong by default - and even Tombstone can be played around thanks to using lockers and throwing all pallets instantly.

    Michael has the worst early game to date and unlike Oni, despite having oneshot once powered up, he still lacks any mobility - outside of being much more of a menace in chase, he's still the same M1 killer with nothing to back him up. He's not bad in chase, but outside of that he has nothing going for him at all - no 4v1, no map pressure, no mobility, no nothing. M&A and DR combo doesn't make you "know where survivors are" and efficient survivors won't be healing against him unless in stage 2. There are also these things, called "holding W" and "short-wall loops", which counter any Vanity Mirrors extremely well, if survivor is not a total potato. Good survivors are able to give Myers almost zero value out of his power. As soon as you get to bully-squads or simply solos who know what they are doing - Michael will be the one on hook.

    So while him being "the weakest one" is debatable, Otz is nowhere near wrong that he IS, in fact, a D-tier killer. Currently, at the very least.

  • DoritoHeadDoritoHead Member Posts: 2,553

    0%, because I don't want to admit that Legion is the worst killer

  • sizzlingmario4sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 2,333

    I don’t think michael is as bad as some people say he is, but he’s still not super good.

    Vanity mirror + dead rabbit is nasty though. One time I used that combo along with monitor and devour hope, and sent myself to lerys and it was a bloodbath featuring an instadown killer with 16m wallhacks, a 6m TR outside of chase, and a super well hidden hex totem (which was never found).

  • InnCognitoInnCognito Member Posts: 698

    This poll. needs to have more than just 1 type of loaded answer. And it needs to have open discussion.

    When it comes to this game. Patches break or make the game. It is a hit and miss. Because metas occur. So if Meyers was looked at. i would say that he could be perhaps the most POWERFUL killer in the game. if his add-ons allow for it. That also includes other killers with Pink and Purple add-ons.

    Quite awhile ago. I made tons of BPs and saved them ALL. Put all of the points on meyers and picked up EVERY purple and pink add-on. Enough I could use tombstone meyers for a good portion of the day. Just Mori'ng survivors all day,. It became boring and from the right view point. Players just gave up and let me Tombstone them. I noticed that nobody was having fun, and even I was no longer having fun. People were just wanting the match to END, so they gave up on a Mori tombstone meyers. I can see this being a DISCUSSION on balance for the whole game. That maybe no Killer should have insta-one shots. But then again. I dont know... just thoughts I guess.

  • CrowmanCrowman Member Posts: 4,243

    Judith's Tombstone isn't really that strong. You have to remember the addon requires you to fully stalk 2 survivors to be able to kill as many survivors as you can catch within 60 seconds while also reducing your movement by 9% in T3. Practically requires you to run Play With Your Food and Tuft of Fur (add another fully stalked survivor) just to get value from the addon. In which case you'll likely lose the gens as Myers will struggle to build up Play WIth Your Food, stalk 3 survivors fully, and defend gens. Especially on bigger maps.

    Tomestone Piece on the other hand only adds 75% stalk of another survivor, does not require you run other addons or perks to be most effective, and you can throw on faster stalk to T3 faster to build the stalk faster for the early kill. And the early kill can basically instant snowball to victory.

  • RoboMojoRoboMojo Member Posts: 1,296
    edited January 16

    Yayyyy another poll that just screams 'I'm right. If you disagree then you're wrong'. Very fun.

  • Dino7281Dino7281 Member Posts: 3,294

    I am pretty sure we are supposed to talk about basekit killer too.

    It's not like you can just value killer based on 3 addons only...

  • ThatOneDemoPlayerThatOneDemoPlayer Member Posts: 3,960

    Is Myers the worst Killer in the game? No

    Is he among the worst Killers? Absolutely

  • GlamourousLeviathanGlamourousLeviathan Member Posts: 561

    I disagree with Otz on a lot of things, but one of the few things he gets right is that Myers is indeed the worst killer in-game by a huge shot.

  • ThePoliceThePolice Member Posts: 746

    What is an MRA

  • hailxsatanxeveryxdayhailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 336
    If QAnon, racial realists, MRAs, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, Deepak Chopra, and the Time Cube guy all teamed up to form a think tank, they couldn't possibly be more wrong than Otz is about Michael.

    Oh, #########. I forgot I created this thread.

    People can't outpace you with distance if you smack them before they even know you're there. M&A + Dead Rabbit means he has no terror radius. That's one free hit (a grab off a gen, if you're lucky), and they better hope there's a pallet extremely nearby.

    His antiloop capabilities are actually decent with Vanity Mirror. Remember, you can see survivors through walls, and you have no terror radius, so that opens up all kinds of mindgames you can play, especially on certain godloops (assumingthe survivor doesn't have Spine Chill).

    I don't have problems with any of the first few maps you mentioned. There are usually obstacles that you can use to obscure the line of sight as you approach. The distance on some of them can be annoying since Mikey doesn't always have great mobility, but I'm used to winning most games of Eyre of Crows in particular. Michael seems to do really well on that map for some reason I can't put my finger on.

    Agree with you on Hawkins and The Game. With the latter, your best bet is to hope Ruin spawns in a good location (there are one or two spawn locations that will have survivors who haven't memorized them all searching the entire game, and the rest are awful), and just let a survivor loop you around the map until the pallets are gone, while occasionally spooking survivors off gens.

    Yeah, Coldwind sucks for every killer now. Main complaint (especially for Michael mirror builds) is scratch mark/aura visibility.

    Michael absolutely dominates Midwich and RPD.

    (Actually, every killer I play dominated Midwich. Otz more recently mocked the idea that killers think the map in survivor-sided, and I would like to know who in the real world was actually making that argument in the first place. And RPD isn't nearly as survivor-sided as some think it is.)

    One of his Iri addons are busted, and the other one is completely useless due to the speed nerf. Luckily, he has three purple (Tombstone Piece and both Mirrors) and one Yellow (Dead Rabbit) addons that are busted,. I very rarely run any Iri addons. Most of his other addons aren't useless, either.

    I also don't understand how throwing all pallets is going to help against Tombstone, unless you're talking about countering Nemesis. Breaking one doesn't get rid of PWYF stacks. It adds extra time, but not all that much - and if you're running Piece, you're only going to get one hit before the timer runs out, anyway, so the time difference doesn't really matter, and if you're running Judith's, you're probably also running Fragrant, or it just isn't worth it (and probably not even then).

    DR and M&A combo means that survivors don't know where you are. Vanity Mirror means that you know where they are (extra tracking perk optional, but Nurse's is a good idea when with VM).

    holding W

    Right, and if they're doing that, you can either commit to the chase and down them (I'll never understand why some people say "holding W" like it makes a survivor invincible; you're faster than they are, just don't be ######### lazy), pretend to leave and mindgame them into walking where you can find them through a wall (no terror radius, remember), or be happy that they're distracted and go chase someone else off of a gen (important thing to do when playing Michael).

    Now, if someone is trying to bait you into a chase with Michael, it's usually a good idea to ignore them.

    bully squads

    If you see 3 or more (maybe 2 or more) in lobby with flashlights, run Lightborn. If they aren't stunning you every time you pick someone up, they're not so hard to deal with. Just tunnel one or two into the ground at the start of the game. Michael catches them off-guard, just because they think it's going to be an easy game.

    Trapper is still the worst killer.

    Legion is really not bad at all if you're playing her correctly. I've been playing Legion even more than Michael for the past month or two for some reason. His basekit is weak, but it meshes well with certain perks, enough so that she can easily jump up to a C or B-tier killer.

    My strategy is to run Ruin/Undying/Pentimento/Thanataphobia. Legion thrives on slowdown perks. The first three are self-explanatory, but the fourth is especially insidious since it stacks with Penti and synergizes with Ruin, and... well, you know how survivors supposedly never heal against Ruin? They do now.

    Then I either run the Mangled/Broken addons (very annoying, especially with Thana) or the pallet-breaking Iri with the addon that gives him an extra 2.5 seconds of FF.

    Oh, but it's not a question of whether Otz was wrong in his tier list. It's just not. It's a question of how wrong he was.

    It is interesting how even Otz held Tombstone Piece up in a later video as the shining example of how the game was not survivor-sided when he Mori'd two people before two gens had been done. I'm not saying he's the absolute strongest, but with the right build and add-ons, he's at least A-tier.

    Yeah, I should clarify that I was talking in the OP about Tombstone Piece. Judith's is trash.

    Thanks. Glad you enjoyed. I put just a whole lot of thought into it.

    It stands for "Men's Rights Activist". Which doesn't sound bad on paper, except they spend no time focusing on issues that actually affect men more than women (like, say, the draft, or the trivialization of spousal abuse/sexual assault against men) and spend all of their time opposing feminism (meaning, the fairly reasonable "women should just have equal rights" kind every bit as much as the more insane variants). They have some pretty kooky ideas sometimes, which is why they made they made the list.

  • DoritoHeadDoritoHead Member Posts: 2,553


    Trapper is still the worst killer.

    Legion is really not bad at all if you're playing her correctly. I've been playing Legion even more than Michael for the past month or two for some reason. His basekit is weak, but it meshes well with certain perks, enough so that she can easily jump up to a C or B-tier killer.

    My strategy is to run Ruin/Undying/Pentimento/Thanataphobia. Legion thrives on slowdown perks. The first three are self-explanatory, but the fourth is especially insidious since it stacks with Penti and synergizes with Ruin, and... well, you know how survivors supposedly never heal against Ruin? They do now.

    Then I either run the Mangled/Broken addons (very annoying, especially with Thana) or the pallet-breaking Iri with the addon that gives him an extra 2.5 seconds of FF.

    I'm not going to argue with you for saying something I like to hear, however I do have some things to say:

    Legion Pin (the one that applies broken) is pretty bad because it doesn't allow the survivors to heal (obviously) but good survivors aren't going to heal against you anyway, and by giving the survivors broken, bad survivors won't even have the option to heal, so you're missing out on some free slowdown.

    Personally, I run Pop/BBQ/Bamboozle/Thana, but I often switch out Bamboozle for more slowdown. But it's still a good perk on Legion since you vault windows and pallets even faster in frenzy, and of course you block windows after vaulting them.

    Finally, I recommend that you check out the frenzy duration addons. They are Legion's best by far.

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