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You can't balance DBD around hooks

FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

I'm seeing everywhere how dbd should not balance around kills but around hooks... because killers aren't able to kill survivors by going around the map and chasing: they have to camp/ tunnel to get rid of survivors (but it is "boring"). But, lets be serious a moment: most killers don't care about chasing survivors and outperforming them in that regard... they only care about getting rid of survivors (not how). I can't count how many times i've seen a nurse or a blight outperforming survivors (recently)... and still camping/ tunneling like if there was 10k on the table (i'm not joking). So, if you make killers so powerful that they don't need to camp and tunnel to win... what do you think would happen when killers still camp and tunnel?


  • JawsIsTheNextKillerJawsIsTheNextKiller Member Posts: 3,157
    edited January 28

    I like how it is now. If you want to "grade up" or score lots of points, play for hooks. But for matchmaking purposes, it needs to be based on kills. You haven't "won" if 4 survivors escaped. Facecamping needs something a bit harsher as discouragement though, but for gameplay reasons not MMR.

  • AdjathaAdjatha Member Posts: 1,656

    Not hook STATES but just raw hooks.

    If it didn't take 2-4 minutes to down one survivor, people won't feel as if camping hooks is the only way they can ever do anything.

    Survivors need to go down at a reasonable pace for the killer to feel like they are doing their jobs. Remember: there are 5 generators but 12 hook states. How many times have 2 generators popped by the time you get your first hook? It's absurd.

    Part of the problem is wildly overpowered survivor perks, partly map design, partly overabundance of pallets, partly poorly designed/over-nerfed killer powers.

    But straight up: DbD would be a TON more fun for EVERYONE (survivors included) if every killer (not just nurse/blight) was able to injure, down, and hook survivors at a brisk clip. The back and forth gives more points for all involved and makes the game more dynamic and interesting.

    To use the hockey comparison: if one team never scores any goals, nobody's going to keep watching the game.

  • RaSavage42RaSavage42 Member Posts: 3,895

    Well Not just Hooks but Hooks and Kills

    Cause the Survivor who hasn't been Hooked should be awarded and so on and so forth

    Hooks should matter in one way, shape or form

    But yes Kills should matter more

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

    I like the idea, but i'm also seeing people's reaction to the idea of BT becoming base kit. When, objectively, it'd be a good change for the health of the game.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 14,166

    People don't like the idea of BT basekit because we already have a lack of Killers.

    We need Killer changes first, then BT basekit. Or, even better, we need those to happen at the same time.

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

    Killers aren't that weak with the right perks and add-ons "in my opinion".

  • fulltononfulltonon Member Posts: 4,397
    edited January 28

    It's punishment without any complement, of course everyone would oppose it.

    Whether you think so or not, the fact is there is much less killers than survivors in many region, regardless of time.

  • chargernick85chargernick85 Member Posts: 3,171

    IDK. A 9 hook 1k performance is more impressive (Great game) compared to a 2 hook 2k. Just plain and simple but yet the bot who got 2 hooks rises and is "BETTER" than the guy who got 9 downs and hooks? hard to see logic in that.

  • GloamGloam Member Posts: 610

    This thread made me realize a couple things about the hook argument that I hadn't before.

    1. You're right that killers that arn't bad per se but just like to grief or just want easier games will actually be encouraged to tunnel and camp even more to de-rank like punishment isn't actually punishment to these people.
    2. People are figuring out ways to "fix" SBMM but if SBMM is working it's always gonna lead to sweaty games for both sides which is what everyone complains about so I don't think these fixes people are coming up with would do what they think they are. This isn't even a problem of SBMM just any attempt at balance is going to cause this.

    I don't know that just kills are the solution but I don't think hooks solve the problem either. I honestly think the problem isn't even balance this point now but "feel". There are a lot of killers that can do okay but feel bad to play just as there are perks on both sides that are fine win percentage wise but feel terrible to play against, I think those things should be the priority instead of SBMM.

  • fulltononfulltonon Member Posts: 4,397

    Tbh win percentage is pretty much meaningless, because worst survivors are beyond your imagination... they can't even do fast vault!

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895
    edited January 28

    First: making bt base kit without helping the killers against gen speed is a bit unfair... but it is not a reason to not adress camping and tunneling either.

    Second: i don't know why... but playing killer currently is so much better than playing survivor to me: quick wait times, and a majority of match where i can actually win with my skill. On the contrary, solo q is garbage... long wait times/ bad teammates and unfun killers. So, i don't understand killers complaining about losing every now and then "to the point of quitting the game".

  • The_C12H15NO2The_C12H15NO2 Member Posts: 324

    Idk why this is a zero sum argument. MMR on the killer side should include a combination of kills and hooks. Ideally as time goes on BHVR will add other categories to the MMR which will reflect skill better. Same for survivors.

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    Sorry, I know you weren't responding to me, but I felt obliged to respond to your second point.

    ...Yeah, there are less Killers then Survivors usually in queue. You can't play Killer games with your friends like you can with Survivor, and there are just fundamental differences with playing that not everyone enjoys. (Plus, you have to have four Survivors to start a game, so it does balance out decently. You don't have to have a Killer for every Survivor or anything like that.)

    None of that really shows Killer being weak or not. Killers can be strong depending on their perks and add-ons. There is more to it then that with winning a match, of course (As we need to also think of what perks Survivors are running, Map RNG, etc), and that's not really wrong nor is that effected by the amount of people playing Killer at any given moment.

  • Tubby_SquirrelTubby_Squirrel Member Posts: 238
    edited January 28

    I don't understand why maintaining an invisible MMR is is important to other killer mains. I just play, if I get a 4k I get a 4k, if I get a 0k I get a 0k.

    I'm going to play to the best of my ability, which means I will never camp. Camping at the end game may guarantee a 1k but if I leave the hook there is a small chance at a 2k, Ima go for that.

    MORE OVER the killers job is infact NOT to simply kill, the killer's 'job' is to feed the Entity. This is why a 4k is not always a 'Merciless Killer' game. You are allowed the luxury of enjoying your role but your only 'job' is providing sustenance for the Entity. Pleasing your master.

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 12,989

    Victory Cube was what we had before emblems. The only thing that mattered were hooks and kills. But kills outweighed hooks.

    A killer who got 7 hooks but no kill, depiped.

    8 hooks and no kill = black pip.

    But 2 kills and 1 hook (which could be effectively 3 hooks) was a guaranteed pip.

    The current sbmmr reminds me heavily of the Victory Cube. Which had to go, because killers only camped and ignored everything else.

    Just like what we have now.

  • AnneBonnyAnneBonny Member Posts: 2,005

    i don't know how the current matchmaking can be fixed but i know it's a lot more miserable to play with than the old system.

  • dictepdictep Member Posts: 1,333

    Imagine if the hatch was visible since the start of the game and keys were basekit and you could use it if you were the last surv. This is exactly the same as facecamp as survivor, ensure one escape. But killers say they do because they can’t do anything else. I would love if killers were bots. Perhaps in few years

  • foxsansboxfoxsansbox Member Posts: 2,004

    1) We're not interested in our invisible MMR. We're frustrated that if we play well we get paired against bully squads who have a higher potential ceiling because the game favors survivors.

    2) Tactical use of camping absolutely contributes to 4k potentiality.

    3) at red ranks, you almost HAVE to 4k to get merciless, otherwise I would agree an Entity themed win condition is appropriate. Right now it's not, nor is it intended to be, BHVRs definition for a win does not play well with the games lore.

    4) The survivor killer populations are so imbalanced right now that killers are constantly getting feast or famine matches where they fight complete scrubs or abusive squads. Neither is rewarding or allows us to develop our skill. We need appropriate matches and we're not getting them.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 9,286

    There are a few issues though

    • Nobody actually agrees on what "tunneling" is, let alone how or whether it should be "punished". Tunneling is often just shorthand for "I got downed and hooked two or three in a row", but that's not behavior that needs to be punished somehow, that's just normal gameplay.
    • If the goal is simply to make it more likely to spread hooks more evenly around the survivors, then something like the loosely proposed idea the devs are apparently looking into of making Borrowed Time base kit would help in that regard. On the other hand, that would also certainly push the overall balance in survivors' favor, so they'd have to simultaneously maybe slightly increase the amount of time it takes to complete gens to compensate. Beyond that, trying to force killers not to down the same person twice in row or stay in a chase with someone after they injure them is kind of silly, it's just making it harder to play the game normally at that point.
    • They've recognized literal face camping as an issue since it's something that's kind of boring for the killer to do and for the survivor who's stuck on the hook. That being said, actual face camping is typically a bad strategy overall anyway, you're more likely to get a higher average kill rate by being more proactive and looking for survivors when they're not coming to you. But they have experimented with ways to make face camping even less appealing, the problem being that the methods they've tried either apparently weren't effective or they made normal gameplay more frustrating (by, say, hurting killers who see a rescuer coming towards them and chase them). There's a line between face camping and just doing zone defense - the former makes for a dull game, the latter is just part of a typical match.

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