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What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair?

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  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    Not gonna read through all seven pages of responses, so apologies if my comment is just an echo of someone else's, but...

    Imho I don't think NOED is unfair. I just think that it's poorly designed in both playing with and against it, and like many meta perks, exacerbates a lot of issues within the game.

    For example, when you play with it as Killer, you have many games where you are pretty much just running three perks since you might not ever even get to end game for it to activate. Or, when you do, it's in a scenario where you've practically already secured your 4k, making it feel like absolute overkill. If you do get to endgame, and you're against a team where you genuinely need it, and it activates- the team will normally be coordinated enough to either leave whoever you downed to die, or just cleanse NOED and get the save, usually making it not worth running compared to something that might have helped you more in the early/mid game. And, at least for me, whenever I do get decent downs with the perk, it doesn't feel as rewarding as just... genuinely outplaying the Survivor to down them, or even getting value out of other exposed perks, such as Devour, Dragon's Grip or Make Your Choice. It just doesn't feel earned to me.

    On the flip side, as Survivor, it's the same story. It either feels like overkill- normally because the Killer either rolled you, or had been sweating bullets like they were about to win the Dead by Daylight Olympics E-Sports Tournament by beating some randos in pubs (Which already doesn't feel great if you're not also going into it for that.). Or, it just doesn't feel earned because one moment you're just minding your own business, playing ring around the rosie with a Legion at a pallet, only to take your first hit all game and get insta-downed- and probably left for dead. After all, on the Survivor side, NOED profits heavily on rando Survivors not being able to coordinate with each other- making it quite frustrating on all ends.

    The perk isn't unfair by any means, but I personally don't think it feels good to run or go against. It doesn't have that fun, odd aspect to it like perks like Nemesis, Haunted Grounds or Retribution, or it doesn't have the same feeling of having been earned like Ruin, Pop, Devour, or even No Way Out. It falls into that similar vibe with Deadlock. Deadlock is a really good perk, but it doesn't feel rewarding. NOED isn't as good, but it still doesn't feel rewarding. At least for me.

  • Marc_123Marc_123 Member Posts: 2,371

    You want it to be unfair but it is not.

    You decide that you ignore it during the match. You know it exists. You decide you don´t want to cleanse totems during the match.

    As stated good teams have no real problem as they remeber the totems and cleanse it only when NOED pops up.

    And also stated the match isn´t over when the last gen is done. You know the killer could have endgame perks.

    And from all the real endgame perks NOED is not really one, as you could have cleansed all totems during the match.

  • dictepdictep Member Posts: 1,160

    I see noed like keys as basekit for survs. It would be only 1 escape

  • realflashbossrealflashboss Member Posts: 276

    You are affected by the survivors hook timer though, so you are on a time limit. Its basically guarantees a kill or more for killers against 99% solo queues.

  • HagIsBestGirlHagIsBestGirl Member Posts: 158
    edited February 7

    As a survivor it feels really, really bad to run a killer for 3-5 gens (a skillful play) and have the game taken from you because, after a long run, the killer finally got their lucky hit.

    The folks calling that a free win are likely inarticulate, or upset. The large amount of pressure for lowered opportunity cost is what makes the perk feel bad to be hit with.

    By the same token, I believe your insistence on not understanding the various, top-level arguments on this topic disingenuous, and I believe you asked this question in bad faith.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,868
    edited February 7

    For me it’s simple.

    I have nothing against the effect itself, but the design behind the completion of the survivor’s main objective giving the killer an advantage just sounds bad to me.

    Like, shame on me for not doing totems, but what did they do exactly ? Aside from simply existing and breathing, that warranted them getting a buff and survivors getting a de-buff for completing their own objective. Seems silly.

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    They kept you off totems and played the match with 3 perks.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,868
    edited February 8

    Played the match with 3 perks?

    They could only bring No Ed and it would still a badly designed perk. That is why most good killers do not run it. It is not rewarding and it feels cheap.

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    That's the answer. Or if you want to go by the devs "noed rewards killers for bad survivor gameplay".

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,711

    How is the game "taken from you", though? All NOED does is give the killer a slightly cheaper (not free, but closer to free) down, the game isn't over just because you get downed after the last generator popped. Especially in the scenario you described where you've likely not even been hooked yet- your team have a ton of time to find the totem, cleanse it, and go for a save.

    And if they just leave... replace that scenario with the killer having an instadown through any other means. Is it the fault of the instadown, or just how the game goes sometimes? You don't always get saved in the endgame, that's just how it is.

    I promise that I'm not being disingenuous, I just find that the various top-level arguments here aren't convincing. Many of them rely on an unchallenged assertion that I just don't agree with, which is why I made this thread to begin with- I wanted to probe at those assertions and see if I could make them make sense. So far, no dice.

  • Senpai_JSenpai_J Member Posts: 62

    How are you gona hate NOED and then turnaround and put on your own crutch perks, they're the same on both sides

  • sludgeraptorsludgeraptor Member Posts: 5

    Excuse me if I'm repeating points since I didn't read through all 7 pages, but the thing about NOED is that, as others have pointed out, its only activation condition is the killer existing. They don't have to play the game; hell, there's an entire genre of YouTube and Twitch content that's just people AFKing as strong killers and then returning after the last gen pops to roll the survivors with NOED. That is the main issue with NOED, and why people don't complain about perks like, say, Devour Hope, which have a similar effect - Devour Hope forces killer gameplay to work and NOED needs....nothing. That is deeply unsatisfying to go against for many people. Maybe not you, but many people. I personally have been against killers faking AFK so they can try this multiple times! It is surprisingly common (though a bit less since MMR came into play), and also, if I may editorialise a bit, very annoying! Why should the killer be able to do something like this? How is the fact that you can refuse to play the game and potentially get rewarded for it not in and of itself a massive sign of poor design/"unfairness"?

    To address the point about other instadowns: every other instadown in this game either has some kind of condition requiring killer input to activate it, a cooldown, is on a timer, has some kind of drawback or is difficult to use, or multiple/all of the above. When an Oni/Hillbilly/Ghostface/etc instadowns me, yeah, fair play. They did something, they should get rewarded for the effort they put in. If I get camped to death by a Tier III Myers, then yeah, you're right, that's just how the game goes sometimes! Some killer abilities or perks make it hard to save, especially in an endgame scenario, and that's alright. They still had to earn whatever instadown was used to get me on the hook in the first place, though, or, in the case of Haunted Grounds, there's a definitive timer after which it will be safe to save. On the other hand, when I'm in chase with a killer, instadown or no, and they suddenly use their speed boost to down me because I was unlucky enough to be the guy stuck in chase with them when the last gen pops, that feels bad. Especially if you're unlucky enough to be hooked right on their NOED, or you're playing solo so you can't call out totem positions, or any number of other unfortunate circumstances. In the end, it's a perk based almost entirely on luck and not skill for both sides, which is bad design, IMO.

    In the end, is it OP? No. Not at all. Annoying, maybe, especially if your luck is bad, but not OP. Is it poorly designed? Yes, very. It's a relic of design that really needs a rework of some kind, or at least to warn survivors the second they're exposed so they can react accordingly.

    I'm a killer main who vastly prefers playing killer, BTW, so this isn't me being salty or anything. I rarely run into NOED because I never run it on my killers and I rarely play survivor. It's still pretty blatantly flawed as a perk no matter what perspective you come at it from, though, since half the time, as you yourself have pointed out, NOED won't even do anything for the killer. It is in desperate need of some kind of rework so that it can be more fun for everyone involved.

  • fulltononfulltonon Member Posts: 4,092

    It's activation condition is killer existing, totem remaining, and after that specific ONE totem is staying alive.

    Just like every other hex perks.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,711

    So, just to set the scene to make sure I don't accidentally imply something I don't mean: I am fully on board with NOED getting a rework. Not a nerf, not just putting even more conditions on its effect to make it even harder to actually make use of (no token system, it's already a bad perk that doesn't do all that much), but something where it's fully redesigned to fill its design niche more effectively. Fully on board, that'd be a great change!

    I do have some objections to your argument, though. I fully understand that running the killer fairly well and being smacked with NOED the second that it activates because you were just unlucky enough to be the first guy hit with it is annoying, but what I don't understand is why that's somehow indicative of bad design when it can happen through a myriad of other methods-- what if you happen to be in a chase when the third Devour save happens, or when one of your teammates procs Haunted Grounds? I get that in the abstract it might feel unfair because it's one of the perks in the game that just does something instead of having a requirement (not inherently bad design, plenty of perks just have a static effect without need for killer input), but realistically it is exactly the same and it's not as though that's the game, it can be cleansed again afterwards.

    You point out that NOED is kinda dated, that it often doesn't do anything for the killer, and that overall it could use a rework, and on those points I absolutely agree. What it's supposed to do is a great concept and I love that it's a universal perk instead of a teachable, but it just doesn't effectively do more than a single down unless you're lucky enough to be facing lemming survivors or lucky enough to be able to defend a hook and the totem at once- but even in the latter scenario that's a single kill because the other survivors would just leave. The only thing I'm contesting is that it's somehow cheap or poorly designed from the angle of not requiring killer input, because that's also true of plenty of other perks.

    But yes- it could do with a redesign to make it more consistently useful. That I definitely agree with, and I'm sure most reworks would make it less annoying for survivors too.

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

    Wait... so, you're not against a rework for NOED. Do you have proposals?

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,711

    Nah, nothing off the top of my head. I saw in the past that it used to have a STBFL type effect, something like that might not be the worst idea- though it might encourage facecamping even more and it definitely wouldn't be good enough on its own, so probably not.

    It categorically shouldn't be weaker or harder to acquire/make use of, but its current effect is just too lacklustre. When I say rework, I do not mean putting a token system or a stricter activation requirement on its current effect. Different effect, or nothing.

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

    People seems to love No Way Out and Haunted Ground... so i think that they could look into that direction. It would solve killers and survivors issues at once (a limit to the snowball potential and more consistency). But if you want a totally different effect, i don't know what they could pull off.

  • IronKnight55IronKnight55 Member Posts: 2,554

    Because of the extra speed the killer gets when NOED activates? That's my guess.

  • fogdonkeyfogdonkey Member Posts: 1,510

    It is unfair because it is a lot stronger against solos compared to swf.

  • kate_best_girlkate_best_girl Member Posts: 2,184

    I'd say because it mimics what most Identity V matches are like. Identity V has a perk called 'Detention' which mimics classic NOED. For 120 seconds the killer can insta down anyone. And so most games of IDV go like this,

    -Hunter finds someone

    -Hunter downs and 'hooks' someone

    -All ciphers (gens) go by

    -Hunter goes and downs another survivor

    -Survivors are forced to leave and let that survivor die

    -Tie


    This is what makes NOED unfair. It rewards face camping.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,711

    The endgame rewards facecamping in general, and NOED is actively weaker if you facecamp since it gives the survivors time to go cleanse the totem. If you get a hook near the totem and facecamp, survivors have no reason not to just leave. NOED is already very inconsistent, but facecamping with it practically guarantees you'll get one kill and that's it- not even that if the survivors are good.

  • kate_best_girlkate_best_girl Member Posts: 2,184

    Well thats the thing is if survivors focus on cleansing then you get two kills either way since by the time the one on hook dies, realistically they won't have all gens done, AND all totems snuffed. NOED is a tie guarantee hence why people don't like it.

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

    I think, if NOED wasn't a hex and required the killer to hook all four survivors once before the fifth gen pops: even if then NOED would be permanent... the killer would have to actively work for it. If you're hit by it, it'd be by a killer that worked for it all game. It wouldn't feel that unfair. That's what current NOED lacks. Now its all down to RNG.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,711

    ...If NOED is active, all the generators are done?

    I'm not talking about cleansing all five dull totems, I've mentioned above that I think that's not especially realistic, I'm talking about cleansing the one that lights up when NOED activates.

    That would hit the problem I outlined a few messages ago- that would just weaken the current effect by making it harder to acquire, in the name of arbitrarily making the killer "earn" actually having their perk active. Not every perk needs that kind of activation requirement, if you're going to change NOED then change it all the way, no half measures.

  • FauldsFaulds Member Posts: 895

    NOED doesn't need its core nature to be changed... only its activation requirement: cause it is that requirement that makes it feel unfair for survivors, and makes it inconsistent for killers.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,711

    It's core nature isn't actually that good, and while it may feel unfair to survivors, it isn't unfair at all.

    What makes it inconsistent is that it gives a pretty alright effect at a time when you're at a huge time disadvantage to actually make use of it- the fact that it can be prevented from ever activating doesn't actually come into it at all, though the fact that it can be deactivated does. Making it less reliable by making it even more possible for it to never activate at all is not the right call.

  • kate_best_girlkate_best_girl Member Posts: 2,184

    Okay but by the time they cleanse and find NOED someones already downed and hooked. What then?

  • qwirteeqwirtee Member Posts: 49

    noed is not unfair, i personally, as a killer think it is a cheap way to get kills.

  • fulltononfulltonon Member Posts: 4,092

    Just cleanse and save like usual?

    It's easy without NOED.

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