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Deranking discussion

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  • PandaChrisPandaChris Member Posts: 100

    @micsan said:
    I completely agree with you that the SWF groups should show up as SWF, but only at the end game screen. Simply because of how incredibly annoying it is to be in queue for 15 minutes then FINALLY finding a game and the killer wusses out. I'm even for giving a decent bonus for those who play against swf, 20-50% more BPs. But, the matchmaking is broken right now and I'm 100% sure of it.

    I have no problem with SWF showing at the end of the game, if the game gets balanced around SWF and voice communication. Which it wont because it screws solo survivors.

    You are getting dodged because a lot of the time for killers a 3-4 SWF game is a complete dice roll. It will either be fun like the other games or a complete nightmare with people who try extremely hard with all the benefits of voice communication. Giving killers extra BP or showing SWF at the end of the game wont change anything in regards to leavers.

    Your original statement was "Why should we be punished for wanting to play together?". Why should killers roll the dice on every 3-4 SWF game to possibly be punished with no fun at all? Why should they take a chance on getting a toxic team or an impossible team to win against cause they have voice communication? Because oh, its only a small chance of that happening? Thats a terrible argument to make. Oh, youll only have a terrible time 20% of the time, so suck it up and take the chance so i can have my fun.

    You cannot have all these advantages like you said "We communicate, we tell each other where we are and where to go and what killer it is, all that jazz" then state killers shouldnt know they are going up against this before hand. And not only not know they are going up against this before hand...but because it might ruin your fun. If you cant see how unfair that is, that is mind boggling.

  • micsanmicsan Member Posts: 95

    @PandaChris said:

    @micsan said:
    I completely agree with you that the SWF groups should show up as SWF, but only at the end game screen. Simply because of how incredibly annoying it is to be in queue for 15 minutes then FINALLY finding a game and the killer wusses out. I'm even for giving a decent bonus for those who play against swf, 20-50% more BPs. But, the matchmaking is broken right now and I'm 100% sure of it.

    I have no problem with SWF showing at the end of the game, if the game gets balanced around SWF and voice communication. Which it wont because it screws solo survivors.

    You are getting dodged because a lot of the time for killers a 3-4 SWF game is a complete dice roll. It will either be fun like the other games or a complete nightmare with people who try extremely hard with all the benefits of voice communication. Giving killers extra BP or showing SWF at the end of the game wont change anything in regards to leavers.

    Your original statement was "Why should we be punished for wanting to play together?". Why should killers roll the dice on every 3-4 SWF game to possibly be punished with no fun at all? Why should they take a chance on getting a toxic team or an impossible team to win against cause they have voice communication? Because oh, its only a small chance of that happening? Thats a terrible argument to make. Oh, youll only have a terrible time 20% of the time, so suck it up and take the chance so i can have my fun.

    You cannot have all these advantages like you said "We communicate, we tell each other where we are and where to go and what killer it is, all that jazz" then state killers shouldnt know they are going up against this before hand. And not only not know they are going up against this before hand...but because it might ruin your fun. If you cant see how unfair that is, that is mind boggling.

    I am rank 1 survivor and rank 1 killer.

    I have poured hours into this game since I started playing, as killer against swf, as survivors as swf and as a survivor solo.

    You say that I should get punished for playing swf, but if I'm not going to get to play swf, I'm not going to play DbD, simple as that. I've already reduced my playtime on this game from all the time I had after work, to simply doing one or two games a day.

    DbD is in no way shape or form something that's considered balanced, or even competitive. The game simply does not allow it.

    Now, I've played my fair share of games, competitive and non-competitive. This game I can tell you right now is being played as if it was competitive(by way to many), but it can NEVER be an E-Sport.

    When playing a non-competitive game you are not going to win all the time if you are incredibly good or even just better then your opponent. But that doesn't [BAD WORD] matter at all. You simply play for fun, if you are up against something completely out of your league, it's still fun to try and see if you can beat the odds. Beating the odds every now and then is incredibly satisfying, like going up against a very good nurse with mori and still escaping at red ranks.

    killers shouldnt know they are going up against this before hand. And not only not know they are going up against this before hand...but because it might ruin your fun. If you cant see how unfair that is, that is mind boggling.

    Like I said, and you completely missed the it... I said SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT DODGING IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE. Getting dodged after waiting 15 minutes, then getting dodged a second time after 15 minutes, then a third time after 15 minutes, then finally someone takes the game and is going huntress \w iri head and a mori. <- This is not "unfun", this is unplayable. I've already purchased another game to play until they fix this issue, and I know plenty of players that now refuse to play.

    For many people there is no point in playing a game that is so grindy like DbD, if you can never "show it off" or use it to help your friends. I'm not going to play killer or solo or duo survivor, because I'm not going to waste my time. Do you not see that? This could have been the best [BAD WORD] game in the world, but it wouldn't matter because I'm not going to wait 15 minutes to get a game that has a 60-70% chance of getting dodged.

    Had there been any way that I could think of to make sure that four random killers can make it so a group of four people has to sit there for 45 minutes waiting to get into a game that's incredibly stacked against you. Remember what I said, I don't mind being stacked up against, it's just incredibly frustrating to wait for 45 minutes (that's 2 or 3 games worth of time) then getting into such a game. AGAIN, I wouldn't give a flying [BAD WORD] had it not been for the 45 min wait times. Because, then we could just get into another game after a quick death. But, no, the SWF dodgers combined with the ridiculous matchmaking makes this game not playable for me and my group.

    They CAN'T make it so a killer can see it's a swf because 60-70% of our swf lobbies get dodged.

    I'm going to make this abundantly clear so you don't misunderstand:

    Killer could see that they are up against a swf, even before lobby. But not when there is such a high percentage of swf dodgers out there.

  • ForeheadSurviorsForeheadSurviors Member Posts: 154
    AshleyWB said:
    If you're unhappy about certain things in this game just make your opinions heard and discuss them civilly. Don't insult each other you will just be contributing to the games poop community.
    The games “ poop community” is a glimpse of reality , on planet earth we dont make a point holding hands singing kumbaya... Sensitive people is whats wrong with this community taking everything seriously .
  • JonathanskilzJonathanskilz Member Posts: 400
    edited January 2019

    @witulo said:
    Honestly all this preaching about deranking by the streamers is beyond hilarious. As if this game is even slightly competitive with its unbelievably shoddy foundation and lack of balance. What is more than a pressing issue is all the HUGE bugs and exploits in this game, and quite frankly examples of terrible game design which to this day still need a lot of work.

    Here's just a few of this game's problems, more important and revelant than deranking...

    • Looping (BAD GAME DESIGN)
    • Camping (BAD GAME DESIGN)
    • Hatch (BAD GAME DESIGN)
    • Huntress hatchets, Hillbilly chainsaw (Ridiculous collisions)
    • Decisive strike (Fixable, but devs are absolutely petrified to change it, pathetic really!)
    • Borrowed time (Revert the deep wounds change)
    • HEX perks (Why are these a thing seriously, did you forget its 1v4 people?)
    • SWF (Limit to two survivors)

    Deranking is fixed quite easily by making more viable killers, if streamers REALLY don't want to go against nurse and hillbilly, then make more than 2 viable killers. In addition to this STOP MAKING KILLERS ON YOUR PERCEIVED SUBJECTIVE VIEW OF FUN!

    Current Mothers dwelling tree/locker exploit (survivor jumps into locker gets caught, as a result killer is stuck)

    Stupid roller skating animation after dropping pallet (No its not funny, its absolutely disgusting this company charges for cosmetics when their foundation for the game is a laughing stock)

    INFINITE [BAD WORD] LOADING SCREEN! I among many have lost tonnes of rare addons and offerings to this bug, why aren't the streamers talking about this?!?!

    Community as a whole: I've not seen a worse gaming community than DBD, I've played all the repeat offenders known for toxic communities, but by far this is the worst. Absolute cesspit.

    P.S Stop with the cosmetics, and fix the game! When the foundation is sound, then start complaining about deranking, but at the moment the game is in a really bad state.

    Limit SWF to 2 survivors are, looping, i feel like your just bad at the game and need to take a break tbh, those suggestion your said can litterly kill the game cindof.

  • altruisticaltruistic Member Posts: 1,074
    edited January 2019
    I’ve been playing mostly Trapper the last few 
    months.  No problem playing at R1.  Rarely use Ruin, never use NOED, and stopped using BBQ.

    Nurse and Billy aren’t your *only* viable options.  People are just stuck in their security blankets of perks and Killers.  

    Its not fun playing high rank Survivor, period.  You literally run into the same cookie cutter builds, strongest add ons, and most.. “competitive” players.

    I don’t want to be competitive, I just play for fun.  DBD is a casual game.  I still get to R1 every season, unfortunately.  Have been running Spine Chill, Distortion, IW and After Care.  My Killer is usually running BS, Enduring, Nurses and Whispers. 

    Post edited by altruistic on
  • PandaChrisPandaChris Member Posts: 100
    edited January 2019

    @micsan said:
    You say that I should get punished for playing swf, but if I'm not going to get to play swf, I'm not going to play DbD, simple as that. I've already reduced my playtime on this game from all the time I had after work, to simply doing one or two games a day.

    I never said you should get punished for playing SWF. I am saying you cant use the argument "Why should i be punished for playing with friends" because killers are equally getting punished for playing against SWF groups. You wait 15-45 minutes for a match and the killer has a chance at having absolutely no fun wasting his time also. What if the killer only plays a few times per day, why should they have a 10-15-20% chance at having no fun at all in a match because of something the game (voice communication) isnt balanced towards.

    @micsan said:
    DbD is in no way shape or form something that's considered balanced, or even competitive. The game simply does not allow it.

    So just because certain things arent balanced and often no fun for one side doesnt mean you just leave things as they are. If you are getting dodged at your stated 70% of games then obviously 70% of killers are having no fun playing against SWF. So ya...that should get balanced in some form. Doing nothing improves nothing for your wait time.

    @micsan said:
    When playing a non-competitive game you are not going to win all the time if you are incredibly good or even just better then your opponent. But that doesn't [BAD WORD] matter at all. You simply play for fun, if you are up against something completely out of your league, it's still fun to try and see if you can beat the odds. Beating the odds every now and then is incredibly satisfying, like going up against a very good nurse with mori and still escaping at red ranks.

    This isnt about being upset about or playing against better opponents. This is about voice communication and again...."We communicate, we tell each other where we are and where to go and what killer it is, all that jazz"....how is that fair for the killer not knowing they are up against that before hand?

    @micsan said:
    Like I said, and you completely missed the it... I said SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT DODGING IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE.

    Then the simple solution is show SWF groups and have dodging on a gradual timer that increases with each dodge. (Ex: 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, etc). Ive pointed that out on other comments ive made in different threads.

  • micsanmicsan Member Posts: 95

    @PandaChris said:

    @micsan said:
    You say that I should get punished for playing swf, but if I'm not going to get to play swf, I'm not going to play DbD, simple as that. I've already reduced my playtime on this game from all the time I had after work, to simply doing one or two games a day.

    I never said you should get punished for playing SWF. I am saying you cant use the argument "Why should i be punished for playing with friends" because killers are equally getting punished for playing against SWF groups. You wait 15-45 minutes for a match and the killer has a chance at having absolutely no fun wasting his time also. What if the killer only plays a few times per day, why should they have a 10-15-20% chance at having no fun at all in a match because of something the game (voice communication) isnt balanced towards.

    You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME.

    The only difference is that when you lose against these players in DbD, it's going to be an awful experience. But only if you let it be, if you refuse to let that guy go that you simply can not hit because he is just that much better then you, then its your fault for having a horrible game. If the SWF is such an unbeatable god team like you fear so much, by the time you have figured out none of the survivors are going to go down, they are already on opening gates phase.

    I'm pretty sure that 10-15-20% is quite accurate for most online games, where you meet someone that completely destroys you. Again, only difference is in DbD this experience feels awful.

    Anyone with a limited gametime knows and manages this every day, it's the same for every game.

    To say that SWF should get punished with huge wait times simply because it can be awful for the killer 10-20% of the time is straight up idiotic.

    Playing against SWF groups is not as [BAD WORD] hard as you make it out to be. Maybe, just maybe, you are way higher rank then you should be, if every SWF is too hard.

    @micsan said:
    DbD is in no way shape or form something that's considered balanced, or even competitive. The game simply does not allow it.

    So just because certain things arent balanced and often no fun for one side doesnt mean you just leave things as they are. If you are getting dodged at your stated 70% of games then obviously 70% of killers are having no fun playing against SWF. So ya...that should get balanced in some form. Doing nothing improves nothing for your wait time.

    Then 70% of the killers should learn how to have fun against SWF, because it's entirely possible to have fun against SWF even when they all escape.

    If you don't have fun against 70% of your games, why are you even playing this game? Like I said, it's entirely possible to have fun in these games even if you don't win, if you get looped forever etc.

    If you manage to kill one of these players that loop you for 5 mins, then most certainly you learned something to make that same loop 4.30 mins the next time. Keeping at it when playing against strong SWFs is the only way to become good enough to play against strong SWFs.

    @micsan said:
    When playing a non-competitive game you are not going to win all the time if you are incredibly good or even just better then your opponent. But that doesn't [BAD WORD] matter at all. You simply play for fun, if you are up against something completely out of your league, it's still fun to try and see if you can beat the odds. Beating the odds every now and then is incredibly satisfying, like going up against a very good nurse with mori and still escaping at red ranks.

    This isnt about being upset about or playing against better opponents. This is about voice communication and again...."We communicate, we tell each other where we are and where to go and what killer it is, all that jazz"....how is that fair for the killer not knowing they are up against that before hand?

    That doesn't make any sense, you are OBVIOUSLY being salty about playing against better opponents. It's exactly the same with every multiplayer game that's competitive. The team with Voice communication will have a huge advantage over those who don't, only differance in DbD it's Team vs Solo, and the solo doesn't have anyone to communicate with.

    I'm certain that you've met plenty of non-swf groups without communication and bogged it up to "ah, it was just a toxic SWF with Voice comms, definitely not my skill that was lacking to get this 4k, it was definitely the voice comms."

    That entire mindset is exactly what's keeping you from having fun 70% of your games.

    @micsan said:
    Like I said, and you completely missed the it... I said SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT DODGING IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE.

    Then the simple solution is show SWF groups and have dodging on a gradual timer that increases with each dodge. (Ex: 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, etc). Ive pointed that out on other comments ive made in different threads.

    Finally, something we actually agree with! :)

    I might be a little harsher by setting it to 5 min, 15 min etc. I never dodge, If I get into a swf game where everyone has flashlights\medkits\toolboxes etc. I will make it a challenge to actually beat this completely out of my odds game. I also often use these stacked games to do Daily rituals on killers I don't like.

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

  • PiiFreePiiFree Member Posts: 1,142

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

    Who mentioned Sabo Squads? No one cares about sabo squads, they don't play time-efficient. Gen rush squads are the problem.

  • LaakeriLaakeri Member Posts: 833
    Sadly this happens even in "real life" industry.
    No competition is bad as there is no pressure to provide quality.
  • PiiFreePiiFree Member Posts: 1,142

    @micsan said:
    You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME.

    I think you confuse "being good at the game" with "being toxic in the game".

    You can be a good player without being toxic and you can be toxic while sucking at the game.

    ...but that explains why so many players have trouble understanding why no one wants to face toxic SWFs.

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

    Who mentioned Sabo Squads? No one cares about sabo squads, they don't play time-efficient. Gen rush squads are the problem.

    Either way - doing gens is their objective, if you play well it wont matter how "fast" they do the gens.

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,205

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

    Who mentioned Sabo Squads? No one cares about sabo squads, they don't play time-efficient. Gen rush squads are the problem.

    Either way - doing gens is their objective, if you play well it wont matter how "fast" they do the gens.

    Ah the classical excuse

  • micsanmicsan Member Posts: 95

    @PiiFree said:

    @micsan said:
    You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME.

    I think you confuse "being good at the game" with "being toxic in the game".

    You can be a good player without being toxic and you can be toxic while sucking at the game.

    ...but that explains why so many players have trouble understanding why no one wants to face toxic SWFs.

    That is exactly my point.

    Thing is, in this game more than any I've ever played, the difference between what's skilled and what's considered toxic by the community is so vastly different.

    Many killers will tell you that running DS is toxic, when they run NOED themselves, which is considered toxic by most survivors.

    Both of these things have perfect counters, DS has enduring, NOED has small game. If you have problems with NOED, run small game and see how much NOED will bother you. If DS is bothering you, run enduring to reduce that 4 second stun to 1 second(slightly more because of the animation).

    Many in this very thread will argue that simply playing with your friends is Toxic, because of voice comms. There is absolutely no winning in this when there are so many who take their preferred side (killer or survivor), instead of taking in both sides as a whole.

    I play both killer and survivor at rank 1 every reset, and I've learned these things first hand.

    The list of things I consider to be toxic and gamebreaking is extremely short, and does not include things like NOED, DS, camping, tunneling, slugging, looping, SWF with voice etc. <- Many of these things people consider toxic because they simply suck at the game or refuse to change up their playstyle.

    So many people I've talked to ingame and on reddit who complain about NOED and NEVER mention using small game. You don't need to run adrenaline, sc, ds and exhaustion perk every single game as survivor.

    And you can easily swap out one perk on a killer to counter things like DS, if that's what's bothering you. It's the exact same thing for 360s, if you have a huge issue with 360s, use unrelenting. I gave this advice to a rank 20 friend who was having problems and it helped him immensely. He eventually learned how to not fall for 360s and swapped it out again, but concept still applies if you are having problems with any other ingame mechanic.

    People are so easily offended in this game, and simply take offense to something rather than think constructive about it to figure out a counter.

    Now, you are going to say, but how do I counter a SWF? Good question...By getting good at all the game mechanics, looping, mindgaming, countering perks or items with certain perks or items.

    Are you going to win every time because you know this? No, not by a long shot. But you will definitely have more fun trying to beat SWFs rather than complaining about SWFs, SWFs are here to stay and will never go away so discussing it is mute.

    You can try and discuss how to potentially nerf SWF, but it is nearly impossible because of what I mentioned earlier. The fact that so many players only play survivor or killer and will simply not know how it is for the other side. I'm surprised over how many people refuse to play both sides before getting so worked up over things. If I have a huge issue with one particular killer, I'll play him and learn how to counter him by having other good survivors show me by beating me.

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084

    @Master said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

    Who mentioned Sabo Squads? No one cares about sabo squads, they don't play time-efficient. Gen rush squads are the problem.

    Either way - doing gens is their objective, if you play well it wont matter how "fast" they do the gens.

    Ah the classical excuse

    What excuse have I provided?

    Ahhh the Classic "Master", commenting and adding absolutely nothing to the conversation, standard.

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,205

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @Master said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

    Who mentioned Sabo Squads? No one cares about sabo squads, they don't play time-efficient. Gen rush squads are the problem.

    Either way - doing gens is their objective, if you play well it wont matter how "fast" they do the gens.

    Ah the classical excuse

    What excuse have I provided?

    Ahhh the Classic "Master", commenting and adding absolutely nothing to the conversation, standard.

    "Genrush is just the survivor doing his objective, just apply map pressure lul"

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084
    edited January 2019

    @Master said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @Master said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:

    @witulo said:
    Clearly you haven't played killer to know, come back when you have experienced it. Most people commenting on this in favour of SWF REALLY need to play killer and stop being a coward.

    SWF Sabo squads aren't hard to beat mate, just stop stressing out mid game and take your time.

    Who mentioned Sabo Squads? No one cares about sabo squads, they don't play time-efficient. Gen rush squads are the problem.

    Either way - doing gens is their objective, if you play well it wont matter how "fast" they do the gens.

    Ah the classical excuse

    What excuse have I provided?

    Ahhh the Classic "Master", commenting and adding absolutely nothing to the conversation, standard.

    "Genrush is just the survivor doing his objective, just apply map pressure lul"

    That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

    and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well... ;)

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,112

    @micsan said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @micsan said:
    You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME.

    I think you confuse "being good at the game" with "being toxic in the game".

    You can be a good player without being toxic and you can be toxic while sucking at the game.

    ...but that explains why so many players have trouble understanding why no one wants to face toxic SWFs.

    That is exactly my point.

    Thing is, in this game more than any I've ever played, the difference between what's skilled and what's considered toxic by the community is so vastly different.

    Many killers will tell you that running DS is toxic, when they run NOED themselves, which is considered toxic by most survivors.

    Both of these things have perfect counters, DS has enduring, NOED has small game. If you have problems with NOED, run small game and see how much NOED will bother you. If DS is bothering you, run enduring to reduce that 4 second stun to 1 second(slightly more because of the animation).

    I'm just gonna address this lie. NOED actually has a perfect counter called "breaking the totems". DS can only be mitigated, but it does not have a perfect counter.
    There is absolutely nothing the Killer can do to prevent the activation of DS; it's all on the Survivor hitting a very easy skill check. On the other hand, the Survivors can break totems, which actually does prevent the activation of NOED.
    So no, they don't both have "perfect counters". One of them has a perfect counter, the other has ways to mitigate - but never completely nullify - its effect.

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084
    edited January 2019

    @Orion said:

    @micsan said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @micsan said:
    You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME.

    I think you confuse "being good at the game" with "being toxic in the game".

    You can be a good player without being toxic and you can be toxic while sucking at the game.

    ...but that explains why so many players have trouble understanding why no one wants to face toxic SWFs.

    That is exactly my point.

    Thing is, in this game more than any I've ever played, the difference between what's skilled and what's considered toxic by the community is so vastly different.

    Many killers will tell you that running DS is toxic, when they run NOED themselves, which is considered toxic by most survivors.

    Both of these things have perfect counters, DS has enduring, NOED has small game. If you have problems with NOED, run small game and see how much NOED will bother you. If DS is bothering you, run enduring to reduce that 4 second stun to 1 second(slightly more because of the animation).

    I'm just gonna address this lie. NOED actually has a perfect counter called "breaking the totems". DS can only be mitigated, but it does not have a perfect counter.
    There is absolutely nothing the Killer can do to prevent the activation of DS; it's all on the Survivor hitting a very easy skill check. On the other hand, the Survivors can break totems, which actually does prevent the activation of NOED.
    So no, they don't both have "perfect counters". One of them has a perfect counter, the other has ways to mitigate - but never completely nullify - its effect.

    Yea this annoys the heck out of me - while i absolutely despise NOED you have a hard counter to it, enduring doesn't prevent the effect of DStrike and you still lose the time spent on a chase, NOED & DS aren't comparable, the only reason people compare them is because they're both annoying AF.

    Ban DStrike

  • micsanmicsan Member Posts: 95
    edited January 2019

    @Orion said:
    I'm just gonna address this lie. NOED actually has a perfect counter called "breaking the totems". DS can only be mitigated, but it does not have a perfect counter.
    There is absolutely nothing the Killer can do to prevent the activation of DS; it's all on the Survivor hitting a very easy skill check. On the other hand, the Survivors can break totems, which actually does prevent the activation of NOED.
    So no, they don't both have "perfect counters". One of them has a perfect counter, the other has ways to mitigate - but never completely nullify - its effect.

    I do not agree. Maybe we disagree on what perfect counter is, but we both agree that they are counters.

    I still think it's comparable as a survivor has to spend 14x5 seconds to remove said totems. As in you need to spend time for the counter to work. I don't think it's that far off to compare it to DS.

    NOED isn't as perfectly countered as you make it out to be.
    it still takes 70 seconds to remove all totems, plus you have to look for them. Time split between all 4 I guess, 17.5 seconds on average per survivor to do this task.

    But, putting on small game makes that task easy, aka a counter.

    Same with DS.
    Put on enduring and you still have to chase them again, but they won't get very far. I don't think you would spend as much time chasing a DS then you would do removing all 5 totems. If you play with this in mind and make sure to use that split second to move to a place where the survivor can't get into a good loop right away after the DS hits. Or, you could juggle or slug.

    It's the fact that the people who keep complaining about these things and that they should be nerfed that bothers me. I do not believe they are OP, and I do not believe they should be removed from the game.

  • PiiFreePiiFree Member Posts: 1,142

    @SenzuDuck said:
    That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

    and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well... ;)

    Exactly like tunneling and camping are playstyles for Killers to help them getting their objective done.

    While I surely agree that doing gens is the main objective for Survivors, I also understand that getting kills is the main objective for Killers. I've seen you complaining about campers and tunnelers during your streams, which is totally fine but is actually no different to Killers complaining about Gen Rush Squads. If you have the chance to dodge a facecamper (hi MLGA) you will dodge them because they are campers. If a Killer faces a gen rush squad, they'll dodge them aswell. It's an eye for an eye, both sides provide playstyles that suck to deal with for the other side and it's only logical that they try to avoid those.

    The problem is that gen rush squads don't just repair gens at a ridiculous time-efficiency, they also use voice communication to "play optimally" in all other aspects. I can deal with gen rush because I can make up for that with map pressure but against 4 survivors that have constant, global map awareness it's hard to get map pressure, depending on the Killer.

  • SomeissuesSomeissues Member Posts: 1,391

    @witulo said:

    Deranking is fixed quite easily by making more viable killers, if streamers REALLY don't want to go against nurse and hillbilly, then make more than 2 viable killers. In addition to this STOP MAKING KILLERS ON YOUR PERCEIVED SUBJECTIVE VIEW OF FUN!

    >
    Devs already said on stream they have no intention of buffing all killers to the same state, they literally said they made killers for fun, not for the competitive reason

    hence i derank cuz why should i get punished for it? boring as hell to play nurse every game

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,112

    @micsan said:

    @Orion said:
    I'm just gonna address this lie. NOED actually has a perfect counter called "breaking the totems". DS can only be mitigated, but it does not have a perfect counter.
    There is absolutely nothing the Killer can do to prevent the activation of DS; it's all on the Survivor hitting a very easy skill check. On the other hand, the Survivors can break totems, which actually does prevent the activation of NOED.
    So no, they don't both have "perfect counters". One of them has a perfect counter, the other has ways to mitigate - but never completely nullify - its effect.

    I do not agree. Maybe we disagree on what perfect counter is, but we both agree that they are counters.

    I still think it's comparable as a survivor has to spend 14x5 seconds to remove said totems. As in you need to spend time for the counter to work. I don't think it's that far off to compare it to DS.

    NOED isn't as perfectly countered as you make it out to be.
    it still takes 70 seconds to remove all totems, plus you have to look for them. Time split between all 4 I guess, 17.5 seconds on average per survivor to do this task.

    But, putting on small game makes that task easy, aka a counter.

    Same with DS.
    Put on enduring and you still have to chase them again, but they won't get very far. I don't think you would spend as much time chasing a DS then you would do removing all 5 totems. If you play with this in mind and make sure to use that split second to move to a place where the survivor can't get into a good loop right away after the DS hits. Or, you could juggle or slug.

    It's the fact that the people who keep complaining about these things and that they should be nerfed that bothers me. I do not believe they are OP, and I do not believe they should be removed from the game.

    Perfect counter means "perfect counter". Means "complete prevention of negative effects", instead of "partial mitigation of negative effects".
    It does not take 70 seconds to remove all totems. It can take up to 70 seconds (14x5) to remove all totems, if a single Survivor is working on totems, but it can also take just 28 seconds to do it if they all work on totems. Just like it can take up to 400 seconds to repair generators (5x80) if a single Survivor is repairing them, but it can also take just 160 seconds to repair them if they all work on generators - and that's not including progression bonuses from skill checks, perks, and toolboxes.

    Juggling only works if there's a hook nearby, and even then it's still not a perfect counter - body blocking will screw you over.

    Slugging only works if you slug all of them. It takes very little time to pick up a dying Survivor. There's also no pressure on the Survivors to go do it ASAP, since they take a long time to bleed out and can recover by themselves.

  • micsanmicsan Member Posts: 95

    @Orion said:

    Perfect counter means "perfect counter". Means "complete prevention of negative effects", instead of "partial mitigation of negative effects".
    It does not take 70 seconds to remove all totems. It can take up to 70 seconds (14x5) to remove all totems, if a single Survivor is working on totems, but it can also take just 28 seconds to do it if they all work on totems. Just like it can take up to 400 seconds to repair generators (5x80) if a single Survivor is repairing them, but it can also take just 160 seconds to repair them if they all work on generators - and that's not including progression bonuses from skill checks, perks, and toolboxes.

    Juggling only works if there's a hook nearby, and even then it's still not a perfect counter - body blocking will screw you over.

    Slugging only works if you slug all of them. It takes very little time to pick up a dying Survivor. There's also no pressure on the Survivors to go do it ASAP, since they take a long time to bleed out and can recover by themselves.

    Like I said, we do not agree on what a perfect counter is, why even bring it up again? We both agree that it still counters the effect, just not "perfectly" or whatever.

    And in regards to the time spent on totems, I already pointed out that an average on this would be 18 seconds if the total time is split between all survivors. And, you need to look for them which can take time entirely dependant on how long you've played and how well you know the maps. This is entirely up to the fact if you know what you are doing or not.

    Same could be said to countering DS, if you have DS and pick up a survivor, move to the edge of the map to reduce the chances of him getting to another loop, vault etc. If you know what you are doing and have enduring, DS is hardly an issue and I would definitely consider it "countered" if I do this and down them again within 10 seconds. Again, entirely up to whether or not you know how to do it.

    I'll repeat it again here, we do not agree on what a "perfect" counter is, but we both have agreed that using these methods above will counter the effect of DS and NOED.

  • PandaChrisPandaChris Member Posts: 100
    edited January 2019

    @micsan said:

    You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME......

    Finally, something we actually agree with! :)

    I might be a little harsher by setting it to 5 min, 15 min etc. I never dodge, If I get into a swf game where everyone has flashlights\medkits\toolboxes etc. I will make it a challenge to actually beat this completely out of my odds game. I also often use these stacked games to do Daily rituals on killers I don't like.

    I didnt want to quote your whole thing because you are either reading my statements wrong or putting words in my mouth which i wont even bother to comment on. I said these things and ill state it again for a third time.

    1) That saying "Why should i be punished for playing with my friends". It is unfun for you to wait for a excessive amount of time and i am sure it is unfun to wait 15-45 minutes. But from the killers standpoint why should they sacrifice their fun for you to have your fun. You said again you get dodged 70% of the time. That means again 70% of killers arent having fun playing against SWF because of the dice roll of either having a fun game or a game that feels like a waste of their time. THE POINT AGAIN is both sides feel like they are wasting their time and one side shouldnt have to sacrifice their fun for the other side.

    Saying "Then 70% of the killers should learn how to have fun against SWF."....."If you don't have fun against 70% of your games, why are you even playing this game?"

    This is again another silly thing to say and i dont see why you cant see that. Saying the majority
    of the player base are having a terrible time with a certain aspect of the game and should just suck it up and learn to have fun or quit is silly. We should be striving to balance this, because doing nothing wont help your queue times and having 70% of players quit isnt going to help your queue times either.

    THE POINT AGAIN is both sides feel like they are wasting their time and one side shouldnt have to sacrifice their fun for the other side.

    2) It doesnt matter if it only happens in 10-15-20% of SWF games. Because those games are unfun enough for killers to lobby dodge most SWF games. There is a problem here and just punishing lobby dodgers isnt going to help.

    You have to get it out of your head that this is a oh i should be playing better or oh i hate 3-4 man SWF teams. That is totally wrong. I even said in my last statement that they should balance showing SWF teams with longer lobby dodging queues. I never said take away SWF in any of the statements.

    4) The most important point which for some reason you dont understand. "We communicate, we tell each other where we are and where to go and what killer it is, all that jazz". There is NO REASON the killer shouldn't know they are going up against this before hand.

    Just because other games are balanced towards voice communication and killers should suck it up is another silly thing to say and not even close to the point either. I am not saying remove SWF or remove voice communication i am saying.....

    THE POINT IS voice communication can provide an advantage and that the killer should know they are going up against that before hand

    You have to stop accusing people of being salty or bad or mad about losing or playing better opponents and you have to stop putting words in my mouth or making assumptions.

    And its fantastic you agree with having SWF marked with lobby quitting being punished more harshly. But please stop saying the majority of killers (70% like you said) should sacrifice their fun for you or just get better or quit the game. You should be striving for balance between both sides not making excuses why they should punish one side so you can continue to have your fun.

    My stance will always be sure punish lobby dodgers but show survivors who are in a SWF group. Dont punish one side for the sake of the other.

  • HoodiedHoodied Member Posts: 10,548

    @witulo said:

    • Looping (BAD GAME DESIGN)
    • Camping (BAD GAME DESIGN)
    • Hatch (BAD GAME DESIGN)
    • Huntress hatchets, Hillbilly chainsaw (Ridiculous collisions)
    • Decisive strike (Fixable, but devs are absolutely petrified to change it, pathetic really!)

    me reading this hurt my brain, they changed ds before, huntress and chainsaw is ping and rubber-band/bandwidth, hatch is to give survivors a last chance, camping is counter able, looping is also counter able for not falling for it like a rank 20 killer

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084
    PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:
    That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

    and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well... ;)

    Exactly like tunneling and camping are playstyles for Killers to help them getting their objective done.

    While I surely agree that doing gens is the main objective for Survivors, I also understand that getting kills is the main objective for Killers. I've seen you complaining about campers and tunnelers during your streams, which is totally fine but is actually no different to Killers complaining about Gen Rush Squads. If you have the chance to dodge a facecamper (hi MLGA) you will dodge them because they are campers. If a Killer faces a gen rush squad, they'll dodge them aswell. It's an eye for an eye, both sides provide playstyles that suck to deal with for the other side and it's only logical that they try to avoid those.

    The problem is that gen rush squads don't just repair gens at a ridiculous time-efficiency, they also use voice communication to "play optimally" in all other aspects. I can deal with gen rush because I can make up for that with map pressure but against 4 survivors that have constant, global map awareness it's hard to get map pressure, depending on the Killer.

    I don’t get your point, who cares if I complain about Camping & tunnelling? I’ve always said on the forums it’s something I don’t have an issue with but im not going to pretend on stream it’s gameplay that I enjoy? 

    Thr huge difference though between camping and “gen rushing” is that camping never really makes sense until end game, you’ll always get less points if you sit at the hook and do nothing, survivors HAVE to do tend to progress, killers don’t HAVE to camp to progress, it infact halts their progression.

    I also don’t use MLGA and don’t dodge anyone as killer, I also don’t come on the forums and cry about the speed of a match, I move on and focus on what I did incorrectly.
  • inkedsoulzinkedsoulz Member Posts: 93

    @micsan said:

    @Orion said:
    I'm just gonna address this lie. NOED actually has a perfect counter called "breaking the totems". DS can only be mitigated, but it does not have a perfect counter.
    There is absolutely nothing the Killer can do to prevent the activation of DS; it's all on the Survivor hitting a very easy skill check. On the other hand, the Survivors can break totems, which actually does prevent the activation of NOED.
    So no, they don't both have "perfect counters". One of them has a perfect counter, the other has ways to mitigate - but never completely nullify - its effect.

    I do not agree. Maybe we disagree on what perfect counter is, but we both agree that they are counters.

    I still think it's comparable as a survivor has to spend 14x5 seconds to remove said totems. As in you need to spend time for the counter to work. I don't think it's that far off to compare it to DS.

    NOED isn't as perfectly countered as you make it out to be.
    it still takes 70 seconds to remove all totems, plus you have to look for them. Time split between all 4 I guess, 17.5 seconds on average per survivor to do this task.

    But, putting on small game makes that task easy, aka a counter.

    Same with DS.
    Put on enduring and you still have to chase them again, but they won't get very far. I don't think you would spend as much time chasing a DS then you would do removing all 5 totems. If you play with this in mind and make sure to use that split second to move to a place where the survivor can't get into a good loop right away after the DS hits. Or, you could juggle or slug.

    It's the fact that the people who keep complaining about these things and that they should be nerfed that bothers me. I do not believe they are OP, and I do not believe they should be removed from the game.

    Depends on the survivor, a bad survivor will probably go down very fast after using DS, but a good survivor....
    They will take you for a ride even if you have Enduring.

    And lets not talk about the unsuspected DS's(the one's that are not the obsesion)....

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,205

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:
    That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

    and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well... ;)

    Exactly like tunneling and camping are playstyles for Killers to help them getting their objective done.

    While I surely agree that doing gens is the main objective for Survivors, I also understand that getting kills is the main objective for Killers. I've seen you complaining about campers and tunnelers during your streams, which is totally fine but is actually no different to Killers complaining about Gen Rush Squads. If you have the chance to dodge a facecamper (hi MLGA) you will dodge them because they are campers. If a Killer faces a gen rush squad, they'll dodge them aswell. It's an eye for an eye, both sides provide playstyles that suck to deal with for the other side and it's only logical that they try to avoid those.

    The problem is that gen rush squads don't just repair gens at a ridiculous time-efficiency, they also use voice communication to "play optimally" in all other aspects. I can deal with gen rush because I can make up for that with map pressure but against 4 survivors that have constant, global map awareness it's hard to get map pressure, depending on the Killer.

    How dare you, filthy killer main.
    For camping and tunneling, other rules apply :wink:

  • SenzuDuckSenzuDuck Member Posts: 5,084
    edited January 2019

    @Master said:

    @PiiFree said:

    @SenzuDuck said:
    That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

    and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well... ;)

    Exactly like tunneling and camping are playstyles for Killers to help them getting their objective done.

    While I surely agree that doing gens is the main objective for Survivors, I also understand that getting kills is the main objective for Killers. I've seen you complaining about campers and tunnelers during your streams, which is totally fine but is actually no different to Killers complaining about Gen Rush Squads. If you have the chance to dodge a facecamper (hi MLGA) you will dodge them because they are campers. If a Killer faces a gen rush squad, they'll dodge them aswell. It's an eye for an eye, both sides provide playstyles that suck to deal with for the other side and it's only logical that they try to avoid those.

    The problem is that gen rush squads don't just repair gens at a ridiculous time-efficiency, they also use voice communication to "play optimally" in all other aspects. I can deal with gen rush because I can make up for that with map pressure but against 4 survivors that have constant, global map awareness it's hard to get map pressure, depending on the Killer.

    How dare you, filthy killer main.
    For camping and tunneling, other rules apply :wink:

    Except nobody mentioned camping and tunneling except for him, which I've stated multiple times that that's fine if you want to do it but lets not pretend camping helps a killer unless you get a 4Head team that doesn't do gens.

    and then I bet it's those same killers complaining about survivors doing gens when they're sat staring at a survivor on the hook until they're dead.

    oh and don't forget, Master - doing gens is an excuse... right? LUL ;)

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