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There shouldn't be any measures to prevent killers from camping/tunneling

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  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 6,578

    Good news!

    There aren't any measures to prevent killers from camping/tunneling!

  • fulltononfulltonon Member Posts: 4,092

    I don't think BHVR CAN fix this problem at all, no worries.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,522

    This game needs to get new players to survive. At the lowest rank of dbd the game is considered killer sided, so they should stay.

    At low ranks camping will probably stop people playing this game. They are already bad at looping and don't understand why camping is still in the game. If you get your mates to play this game, it's incredibly challenging to explain why I can't save them vs a camping Bubba, Trickster or Hag.

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340
  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 7,895

    Do you have a link? I can't find anything like that on Google.

  • KerJuiceKerJuice Member Posts: 1,479

    @Dionysus42 keep that same Ghandi energy the next time someone verbally assaults you, your mother, or the woman/man you love in person. When your loved one gets offended, remind them “it’s just words.”

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,522

    Not really lol easy in basement. Especially at low ranks also where players don't have access to the anti-camping perks.

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    I dunno. I find hag to be almost stupidly easy, crouch through the traps, flashy flashy the one in front of the hook, and you're good to go.

    As far as basement and trickster, while his ranged potential is threatening, I don't think he's that much more difficult than any other killer. Honestly I'd say huntress would be the harder killer to save from, as she only needs to land two hatchets, rather than 12.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,522

    Well that's not a camping Hag if your able to crouch through all her traps.

    Trickster has to hit 12 knives but unlike Huntress if he misses a shot, it doesn't really matter. Also a camping Trickster builds up main event stupidly easy.

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    Wait, you mean a hag who is actually there camping at the hook? That's an m1 killer.

  • BwstedBwsted Member Posts: 3,060
    edited February 23

    I posted it on your wall. I want to avoid that some overzealous mod could misconstrue it as being naming'n'shaming if I put it there.

    Turns out the original quote was "cool... dangerous... but neat" sort of.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 7,895
    edited February 23

    Thanks, whoever made that video is kind of cringe honestly since it’s just a bunch of out of context clips of the dev doing something wrong in a match or whatever. Comes across as someone who just has an axe to grind with the guy.

    Anyway, since the clip is cut off, for reference it sounds like he’s coming from the context of thinking Insidious having a use is “neat but dangerous” (the video doesn’t go on so I have no idea if he says anything else, but by dangerous it sounds like he means risky for Bubba since he’s not pushing anybody off the gens by doing it.)

    Note though that more recently the devs have also officially in the actual dev chats talked at length about experimenting with ways to limit face camping but hadn’t found a solution yet that seemed effective but that didn’t cause additional problems. They didn’t give specifics, but I wouldn’t be surprised if for example the mechanic Pyramid Head’s Cages use where the cage moves to a new spot when he’s nearby was an offshoot of something they were thinking of trying with hooks to limit face camping. (That’s total speculation on my part but it makes sense they would try a mechanic as a back door pilot of sorts to implement elsewhere. They did something similar with Wiggle checks on Cages becoming the standard for wiggles during carries for example.)

  • BwstedBwsted Member Posts: 3,060

    I don't have any feelings toward the clip, I was just providing a reference from where the quote came from as it was requested.

    Regarding the devs alluding at addressing facecamping, I'll believe it when I see it. There have been many ideas about changes in DbD over the years that have seemingly been gone and forgotten. We shall see if this one is any different.

    Your suggestion is one possible solution, but also dangerously dependent on the killer power itself. Ironically, it doesn't work for the very killer it was implemented for, i.e. cage relocation activates when closer than 5m to a cage, but PH's POTD has a base range of 8m. The killer can simply stand at outside relocation trigger ares with the power cocked'n'loaded and instantly redown upon uncaging. Hooks would be a little more lenient, because hook perks proc, but ranged killers will still pose an issue.

    Personally, I think the easiest way to go about it is to remove hook grabs and interruptions, which are an ill-designed mechanic that does reward facecamping. The action is started without channeling and the rescuer should stay locked in the animation (very much like killers do when picking up) and that's it. Camping and non-camping killers will still get a 1 for 1, but the camper won't be able to force a 2nd stage by threatening grabs, or any other sort of action interrupting actions (e.g. Doc spamming shocks, but there are many others), or even by getting a grab and slugging under the hook. This change would be neutral for non-facecampers, while still leaving proxy'ing relatively unchanged, as in the devs' intentions.

    bUt ThEn SuRvIvOrS wIlL jUsT fArM iN mY fAcE (I can already hear that coming from somewhere in the fog). Well, no #########. Saving in the face of a facecamper is the only way of saving. If one isn't facecamping, then it won't matter that much.

    Notice that hilariously, Bubba would still be able to do (most) of what he could do now. But that's an issue with his own specific design that the devs simply refused to fix.

  • RaSavage42RaSavage42 Member Posts: 3,381

    It's up to the Survivors to stop the Camping and Tunneling... Cause it's a thing that's in the game

    Getting less BP is the only downside the doing it... While some players do care about BP gain Vs. loss... The fact that "winning" Vs "losing" matters more

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    Couple thoughts.

    1. As you noted, that would do literally nothing against the character most often used to facecamp.

    2. Yes, they would farm, they would go for unhooks while being chased, so it wouldn't just affect face camping, that sort of change would impact any form of hook defense.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 7,895

    Just to clarify, I’m not necessarily suggesting the hooks move like cages, I’m saying it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s something they experimented with internally given they already implemented it for Cages to avoid face camping those.

    Also in terms of Bubba, the main thing about him facecamping is his ability to instant down survivors, even through Borrowed Time possibly. Even a hook trade against him risks both survivors being downed immediately. If they want to specifically mitigate that scenario, they could maybe at least limit Bubba’s chainsaw to one kill and then he goes into tantrum. It would be a slight nerf but not a big one since the great majority of the time he only gets one kill per chainsaw use anyway. But it would make it a bit safer to hook trade against him since it would given the rescued survivor more time to run away.

    Generally speaking though literal face camping isn’t normally as effective as being more proactive at pressuring and downing survivors doing the gens. Ideally you want one person hooked, one going for a rescue, and one being chased at all times so that at most one survivor is free to work on gens. That significantly slows them down, and then once you have a kill the same cycle means they potentially have either nobody on gens or nobody doing a rescue during a chase which is when it snowballs. Camping a hook is mostly for the cases when the survivor is already close to going down a hook stage, then you don’t lose a ton of time if you wait a few seconds to make sure they don’t get a last second save.

  • BwstedBwsted Member Posts: 3,060
    1. As I mentioned in the end, Bubba's facecamping is matter in its own regard. He is so well-built for facecamping that any general solution to facecamping is doomed to fail if it's not tailor-made for him. The rational approach would be to see if (stress on the conditional if) he can be fixed. As a matter of fact, many people on this board seem to defend his ability to facecamp, so this conversation will probably be sterile.
    2. I was wary of making it clear that proxying will be 'relatively' unchanged. In a machine with so many parts in motion as DbD, no change can be assured to be 100% surgical on one single aspect without at least affecting a tiny bit of something else. It's all a matter of making sure everything is balanced out. Unhooks while in chase already happen currently and it's generally a bad play from the survivors' part regardless. I.e. they're making me a favor as killer when that happens, as far as I'm concerned. So, I don't see it as big source of concern personally, but ymmv. The difference is that certain killers can stop them, normally those killers that are already good at camping in general, while others most often than not can't anyway. My solution would balance the playing field if anything.

    Regarding your last paragraph, I disagree. Maybe facecamping isn't the best course of action (most of the time), but camping the very first hook almost always is. Baiting out a rescue bypasses the need to look for another target while you ensure you're defending one of your resources. The survivors come to you for the rescue, possibly more than one. Then you be non-committal about chasing the first rescuer and someone else must come. Then you facecamp into second stage. You took people off gens with minimal effort.

    A good mix of a strong killer with a slowdown+endgame perks seals the deal. This is and has always been the optimal strategy and essentially overwhelming in pubs. It backfires only when survivors go full depip squad and simply don't go for altruism by default. But even then, you can mostly ensure a 2k at 2 hooks. And MMR will pat you on the shoulder.

  • AsherFrostAsherFrost Member Posts: 2,340

    Unhooks in chase do happen now, but with the grab, I (as killer) can stop the unhook, hook the player who made the bad play, and perhaps help them learn why such an unhook is a bad idea. If I can't grab them or shock them to interrupt, then my next best option will be to go for the recently unhooked, which rewards the bad play of the survivor who likely did the unhook mid-chase to get away, and makes for a less fun experience for the survivor who was "saved" only to immediately be back up, another hook state down.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 7,895

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on how effective literal facecamping the first hook is.

  • PleassBuiltInNoedPleassBuiltInNoed Member Posts: 617

    Agreeable, killers should have incentive to leave the hook or go for another survivor instead of the recently unhooked one.

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