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Question to the VETERAN/EXPERT players: what do you think of the CURRENT balancement state of Dbd?

Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

This post has the purpose of collecting the opinions of veteran/expert Dbd players that have been playing Dbd for a lot of time, and that preferably have been playing both sides of the game (survivor and killer) constantly up to now (or 3 months of absence max), about the current balancement state of dbd. So, if you've been playing dbd just for a bit/are a new player, or are still learning but don't feel confident enough, please tell us how confident you feel playing both sides and your number of hours so we can see and confrontate the different opinions comparing the hours and the knowledge of each other. ALso everybody, if you can please share how many hours you have in total or how many hours experience you gained watching content creators would be much appreciated :D

So, I've been wanting to create a thread like this for a very long time, but I wanted to wait until the new DLC came out, so we have a lot of time to confrontate the different opinions and discuss interesting things until the mid chapter patch comes out. I hope this thread will achieve a lot of opinions during the course of a month, and will stay alive for a very long time!

So, talking about the balancement of Dbd is a VERY COMPLEX MATTER, no doubt, and we gotta set a definition of what we're talking about and DON'T TAKE AND EDGE CASE ONLY. Yes, they're important, but they're not THE ENTIRE GAME.

If you have any doubt about anything here's the Dbd wiki:

7 are the big categories that determine the balancement of the game:
  1. Killers with their respective powers, and there are 27 killers in total right now. Survivors apart from changes to the loudness of the grunts of pain(with Ace and others being harder to hear, and instead Jane and Jeff and other being very loud, and others like Jake and Laurie being a mix because they have inconsistent breathing and are very good against Spirit) and stealth visibility cosmetics (and female survivors being smaller usually), can all be considered skins, so don't matter.
  2. Perks
  3. Maps(realms)
  4. Items
  5. Add-ons (both sides)
  6. Offerings
  7. RNG/luck. With this it's included things as a corner of the map being full of pallets or a complete dead zone, thing that can completely turn the game around, especially against some killers like Bubba or Billy; the luck mechanic, survivor spawns, totem visibility and spawns, hook spawns, etc.

I think that, after 4 years, everybody can retain the @marth88gaming Depip squad experiments OUTDATED, because TOO MANY THINGS PASSED SINCE MARCH 2018. Almost all maps got reworked, a lot of killers got buffed and reworked; BNPS, Instaheals, Toolboxes, Mories, and many other GAME CHANGING things have been completely reworked, and other game changing perks like Corrupt Intervention, Pain Resonance, Ruin, Undying, Dead Man's Switch, Deadlock have been introduced/reworked, and many maps with infinites/god windows EXPLOITS (as the devs themselves called it. I'm not joking, they declared them exploits when they started reworking all the maps in 2019/2020) have been reworked. Decisive strike was a completely different game changing perk back than (even now, and thank god it and borrowed time exist otherwise why not just tunneling 1 survivor always to win much more often), so that's why you have to be up to date.

To consider the balancement of the game, we gotta aknowledge that the win condition is actually, as SBMM/MMR declared it, killing and escaping, and consider the survivors as a team. So if 4/3 survivors escaped the survivors won, if 2 escaped it's a tie, if just 1 escaped or nobody survived the killer won.

Now, and this is why I need veteran/expert players, and if possible even competitive players if there is any, we need to consider the survivors being, other than as efficient as possible, in full voice communication, able to callout positions on the map with a clock system as competitive players do. Like when playing chess, a rule that is kinda implicit is that YOU GOTTA TAKE FOR GRANTED THE OPPONENT WILL ALWAYS DO THE MOST EFFECTIVE THING, so don't hope that survivors will be in a lack of communication because that's not a reliable way to balance the game around.

With this in mind,

I'd like you to talk and consider as much as possible about the balancement of the game considering as many cases as possible, and both sides always balanced. If for example you wanna consider the Nurse with no perks or add-ons, you gotta also consider the survivors with no perks and no add-ons and items. Or if you wanna consider a Nurse with 3 blinks and recharge + Starstruck you also gotta consider the survivors with the best perks, offerings and add-ons combinations. If you're playing the worst killer but with the best possible build, you still gotta consider the survivors with the best stuff combined. Etc, I hope you understood the concept. Still, include the edge cases, because not all edge cases have a counter, or have the proper organisation available every match.

So, try to consider the average if you wanna put all killers together for example, and discuss as much as possible about individual killers/perks/etc in a profound way, SO PLEASE NO THINGS LIKE "KILLERS ARE OP", OR "SURVIVORS ARE OP", because we all know that there are scenarios where these statements are definitely not true.

To conclude and sum it up, consider killers and survivors playing as efficient as they can in all cases, so no archives or side objectives, and completely exclude the fun factor, so if a killer like Pyramid head is super good at tunneling 1 survivor out of the game due to its power you gotta consider it.

please share your opinions if you're a veteran/expert, let's have a good discussion!

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Comments

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    I've been playing Dbd since Jenuary 2017 with 2700 hours, and I've been watching it since 2016, and I've got 2/3k hours of experience just from watching Youtube videos and Twitch streams and tournaments. I've never farmed hours in game, so that's my legit number of hours.

    I'd like to write a lot about the balancement of the game, but right now I'm tired so I'll write about the balancement state of the game soon.

  • hailxsatanxeveryxdayhailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 505

    I realize that VETERAN/EXPERT is in ALL CAPS, and I don't claim to be that, but I'm going to answer anyway. (I do have over 1000 hours; have been playing for a year and a half, I think - didn't actually check, but it's around that.)

    The balance is fine.

    The game is slightly (more than slightly) survivor-sided when both sides go full meta, but you can't really do much about that without screwing solo survivors, because the only solution would be to nerf survivors in general. It needs to be fair to solo queue players. This is also balanced out by the fact that we have Nurse, who is both extremely difficult to play and also nearly impossible to win against if you find yourself up against a good one.

    I think that a lot of the things killer mains complain about (DH, Spine Chill, new DS, etc.) can be annoying as a killer main, but they don't completely wreck the balance of the game. The one thing I have noticed so far that did fundamentally change the balance of the game is CoH, which is legitimately overpowered, but sometimes the newer killer perks get overlooked - I think people are just now starting to realize how powerful Pentimento can be, and Brine is a manual Ruin/Surveillance that stacks with Pop and can't be turned off.

    You have to earn Brine with kicks and Pentimento can be easily turned off since Survivors are going to know exactly where it spawned, but that's balance, and as long as we can keep those perks in their current form, I'll stop complaining about CoH.

    I think a lot of people have some very wrong ideas about certain maps. I tend to 4K a majority of my games as killer on Gideon's and die in three-fouths of my games there as a survivor, and RPD is a killer-sided map depending on who you're playing. (Michael and Ghostface are a guaranteed win, and I'd imagine Nurse and Blight have some trouble.) It seems like the devs are trying to make the maps as balanced as possible over time with changes and reworks, but I'd honestly rather have a couple of maps that are extremely killer-sided and a couple of maps that are harder to get kills on. Makes the game more fun.

    Luck as a mechanic is completely useless, and there are a ton of offerings for it for no reason that nobody ever uses. Yeah, if you are in a SWF and run all Luck-based/unhook-based perks and addons, you're guaranteed an escape on the first hook, and then the killer comes back and downs you immediately because they only got 15m away and now you're on deathhook with no perks.

    If there are going to be Luck offerings, it needs to do something other than affect unhook chances. Item rarity would be awesome.

    Sadako needs a buff. I know I said that Nemesis needed a buff when he came out, but I meant that it would be nice if Nemesis had a buff. In Sadako's case, I mean Sadako needs a buff.


    Stay tuned for more 10-paragraph rants as I think of them.

  • CetrenCetren Member Posts: 979

    I have played DBD since 2016. I don't remember the exact month that I started, but I have in that time accumulated about 2,700 hours, with a long break from the game relatively recently, but I'm coming back to it now. I've played both sides extensively, although I probably lean a little more towards killer games. (60-40)


    I think the one thing that stands out to me in any model trying to say that 2 kills 2 escapes is the desired outcome is the fact that the exit gates MUST be powered in order for more than 1 person to escape. Because of the extremely weak endgame potential of most killers without end game perks, I feel like in most games when the gates are powered survivors can almost always secure having everyone escape minus the one person who is initially chased, if there is one. (Living - distraction = survived)


    The thing is I've had games as killer where I get absolutely destroyed, gates are 99'ed in minutes and I get away with a 3-4k because the survivors started acting like goons. But I don't feel like that's a win. I don't want to win because the other side hands it in my lap. (E.g. survivors hook farm, killer is friendly, etc) I want to have genuinely fun games and good interactions between players. I've had games where I barely miss a survivors at the exit gates and I slam my head on my desk in frustration and get a 1k, and I've had games where I barely miss a survivor at the exit gates and I grin and say gg well played. The fun that I have in the match isn't always tied to the outcome.


    Rather than even see balance in the game, I'd like to see it be less frustrating for killers, and more consistent for survivors. I would rather get a 1k where I had a great time and made some friends than a 4k where I crushed everyone, or even a 2k that was a "balanced game." If the game was just fun to play, I'd enjoy it more, winning or losing.



    TL;DR - Rather than balancing the game until its a 2k every time, they should make killer less frustrating and survivor a more consistent experience.

  • hailxsatanxeveryxdayhailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 505

    Oh, reading Karu's post just reminded me that I meant to address SBMM: I might be in the minority, but I like it. The emblems system was too easy to game with a weaker killer like Legion, while some objectively much better killers would struggle. It also meant that facecampers and sluggers (even very good ones) could stay in the lower ranks and make life hell for new players.

    There was a point where I was either getting games against a bunch of brown-tier newbies or a fully-decked bully squad that could run rings around me, but now that the dust has settled, I usually find that I have a chance of winning, but I feel challenged, and my skills are improving. I still tend to lose against highly coordinated teams, but I feel like that's just the nature of the game (and I win against them sometimes, too).

    Basing matchmaking around kills is just the most logical way to do things, and it makes it fairer for everyone. I think a lot of the complaining about it has to do partially with the initial confusion the system gets thrown into when you start playing a new killer (or survivor in general) since it doesn't know where to put you for the first couple hundred games and partially to do with the fact that matchmaking will ignore your skill level altogether when trying to fill spaces for lobbies where players dodged (BHVR says they're working on this).

    (I still think that Adept Killer achievements are way too hard when compared to Adept Survivor achievements, which are a breeze.)

  • PukenplagPukenplag Member Posts: 1,231

    As someone that knows this game since May 2016 and plays since December 2016, I consider myself a veteran.

    From my point of view, killer is currently in a pretty bad spot due to COH. Prior to it, you could hit and run to ensure that gens go by slowly. However, with the additon of COH, hit and run has been made useless, therefore forcing you onto chasing someone down. However, with the current state of the game, that will cost you 2-3 gens.

    MMR doesn't make things better either.

    Survivor, on the other hand, can be really unfun in solo q and way too strong in SWF.

    Balance wise, killers may have been in a worse spot during 2016 and 2017, but it really feels like in our current era, you either play the strongest killers and sweat, or you just get a 0k.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 13,421

    I don't know if I'm qualified to answer. I do have well over 5K hours spread across multiple platforms but I've only been here since early 2018, is that sufficient?

  • AdaezAdaez Member Posts: 859

    Depends what you call a veteran,I play since early 2020 and I have over 1.5k hours in the game.

  • hailxsatanxeveryxdayhailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 505

    I agree with almost everything you said, but voice chat for solo is a horrible idea.

    For one, it would make every game an SWF game. I get that SWFs are a thing and facing them is unavoidable, but playing against one seriously ######### with the game balance in favor of the survivors, and we'd need a whole range of general survivor nerfs across the board to compensate.

    Of course, thankfully, that'll never happen, not with this community. BHVR wouldn't dare. You just know somebody would be screaming racial slurs at the top of his lungs all game every other game, and they'd have no way to police it. It'd cause so many problems that it'd just be gone immediately if they ever added such a feature.

  • SuzuKRSuzuKR Member Posts: 2,553

    Just here to see if anyone calls themselves an expert, lulw

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 12,687

    Thats why i also proposed a communication wheel (or what the name of that thing is). With a dozen pre selected messages, we could perfectly communicate with our teammates.

  • ItsJesseFFSItsJesseFFS Member Posts: 100
    edited March 12

    Playing since April 2018 - The game is in a really unhealthy state overall.

    • Both sides are incredibly boring to play.
    • MMR is making this game more and more stale every single day that passes.
    • Solo survivor is still embarrassingly weak.
    • Very very very stale meta.
    • Killers hard tunnel every single match now, even DS is useless now.
    • Killers hard camp every single match now, and even with BT they just hard tunnel.
    • Boring to go against strong anti-loop killers.
    • The whole "killer is hard" mantra.
    • I'm seeing a lot of toxicity end-game chats, almost every game.
  • BullettimegodBullettimegod Member Posts: 994

    @Leonardo1ita community in general? Or the state of the game? Or both?

  • MonsterInMyMindMonsterInMyMind Member Posts: 2,744
    edited March 12

    Followed the game since release started playing in September 8th of 2018 when I got my first Desktop that could run it I have over 4,190 hours in the game mostly on the Killer side but I do play Survivor as well more so since MMR was added.

    • Killer is insanely stressful due to the advantages that Survivors are given.


    • Solo Survivor is awful to the point you have to SWF in order to have fun as you are paired with Survivors who I'm shocked still aren't stuck in the tutorial of the game.


    • MMR is just not what a casual game needs nor is it working.


    • Core Game issues need to be addressed instead of bandaid perks being added.


    • BT should be basekit tired of being farmed by randoms who refuse to run BT.


    • Something to disincentivize camping,tunneling and slugging while they're tactics Killers shouldn't have to enforce these to win.


    • More Killer variety/Perk variety it's boring seeing the same 3 Killers played Nurse,Blight,Huntress because all the other options can't compete. Perk variety is also a problem it's the same Survivor perks used and the same boring Killer perks to slow gens used.


    Post edited by MonsterInMyMind on
  • DbD_EnjoyerDbD_Enjoyer Member Posts: 458

    I play since launch, the game is not balanced and not fun anymore, unless you are playing survivor, its just frustration and toxicity, whenever someone asks me if they should play DbD i tell them to "go play something else, try Civ. IV, i heard its a great game"...

  • herbaljellyfishherbaljellyfish Member Posts: 115

    2.5k hours here. Actually just uninstalled the game today. No game should tilt you or make your blood boil and this game absolutely does. I'm going to lay out what I think about balance as follows:


    Balancing in DBD for multiple years now has been completely artificial. Band-aids really without addressing any of the real problems. One of the biggest tells here is the use of meta perks that both sides use to feel they even remotely have a fighting chance. There is no existing casual gameplay to DBD. For instance: Ruin/Undying/Pain Resonance/Pop on Spirit/Nurse/Blight/Pinhead/Artist/Nemesis...etc... Don't blame killers for running these though. Gen speed is a problem and instead of reworking core gameplay it's "bandaided" with perks creating the "meta". But if you're say a solo survivor, dealing with this EVERY SINGLE GAME is exhausting and unfun. These types of builds are not balanced for a solo q experience, especially when SBMM is so broken that 2k+hour survivors get paired with 3 other <20 hour potatoes who can't contribute to countering these builds. When you try to buff killers to make them more viable to go against SWF, you completely break solo Q(at least with the current state of match making). But if you try to balance out solo q, then you inherently buff SWF making killers even more miserable against coordinated groups.

    There are perks to counter perks, and perks to counter gameplay styles and it's honestly just way too much. Things like BT/DS/UB shouldn't need to exist to simply artificially help with tunneling and camping. The core gameplay should be fixed where these types of "tactics"(honestly, lack there of) make such little impact that perks like these aren't needed. It feels terrible when you're like "oh I'm not going to bring DS this time" then immediately get tunneled out of your next match thinking "well, i'm never not bringing DS again". Or going against a facecamper and having BT. The existence of these perks also punish killers who do not use these "tactics" and it's not fair to them. Or like I mentioned above, killer perks to slow down gen speeds because the core gameplay is just rotten. So we have this never ending cycle of meta perks on both sides.

    Then there's certain iri addons(i'm talking both killers and survivors). Let's not call them ultra-rare, because they aren't. If you have any p3 character, you're getting iri's at least every 3 bloodwebs. This is not "ultra-rare" in the slightest and some are just insanely powerful that tilt favor in one direction or another far too much to be as common as they are. But again, these types of addons only exist to artificially show balance.

    Then there's maps of course. Maps are one of the most unbalanced things in the game. Maps are far too heavily dependent on who the killer is. Then you have maps like The Game, which is disgustingly littered with VERY strong pallets(I would say it is the most survivor sided map in the game) versus large outdoor maps that are full of deadzones with generators in them artificially giving killers "free hits" or downs in those areas that reflect neither the killer or survivors skill.

    All in all, I think the game is just so poorly designed from it's objectives, to it's ranking, to it's SBMM all the way down to it's gameplay. The only reason I personally feel DBD has a player base still is because there is no competition. I mean, VHS is coming out soon, but I can't speak on it because I've never played it.

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    Great, pretty damn detailed, good job Karu! I really wonder why aren't you a trusted member of the forums after so many useful comments and activity, when members that are very little active keep their trusted status.

    I agree with everything you said pretty much, and considering tournaments, they limit what the game actually is. Like if everyone could use 4 Giant toolboxes with 4 BNPS and 12 charges with streetwise in tournaments, or 4 ranger medkits with max charges with lucky break overcome why wouldn't they XD? Just the fact that CoH is not allowed in tournaments completely changes the stats by a huge amount, and it becomes almost a complete version of Dbd.

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    Kills should be a proxy for skill due to killers ability to SNOWBALL (cancelled by perks like Circle of healing, unbreakable, medkits, etc), in practice most times, especially for killers that catch up or facecamp, the strongest thing to do becomes tunneling (and eating DS) and hard camping or facecamping, and bodyblocking hooks with your body to force a survivor to die/ go second stage.

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    I disagree with this, some killers especially with Corrupt Intervention, DMS, and other perks and very strong add ons can at least guarantee 2 kills, even against super coordinated survivors with competitive coordination. The problem comes when you face toolboxes that can rush super fast, big medkits, syringes, Circle of Healing, Dead hards, lucky break + overcome. At that point you clearly start to lose control as Killer no matter how skilled you are.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 13,421

    this is why i asked and did not make a statement

    cant tell if im good or if my ego is

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    Yeah it is sufficient, absolutely :D! Even having 1000 hours (1500 would be better, but 1000 is still ok) is ok.

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    I disagree on 2 things:

    1. Solo Q is in a TERRIBLE spot. When you get tunneled or facecamped out of the game, that's it, you lose SBMM and your teammates might not even make it out. Also I just find bad if not VERY teammates a lot of games.
    2. Undying was rightly nerfed, RNG and luck based perks should not exist IMO. You could have haunted grounds trigger 4 times, and ruin 5 times until the last totem. It was HORRIBLE, come on.
  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    Yeah you're a veteran, tho maybe not an expert (I cannot know your skill, I'm not a wizard), provided you played consistently both sides up to now consistently.

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    Voice chat (with bans for who slurs and harasses with it) would be great, because, I'm sorry for all Tru3ta1ent fans, the way here is bringing solos to premade groups level to close the game, not the other way around. Thing that exists in VHS and that Dbd devs are admiring.

  • Leonardo1itaLeonardo1ita Member Posts: 1,984

    Very good analysis, thank you for your contribute, I wish there were more comp players in the forums! 😃

    SBMM is be very good ONLY for 4 survivors communicating. Otherwise it's very bad for solos, because you still find bot teammates.

  • CrowFoxyCrowFoxy Member Posts: 1,309

    I've had about 15 matches on both surv and killer recently as it try to return to DBD, I started in 2018. The game is very frustrating for me personally.

    On survivor I had a better time but on Killer I was actually sweating in a quarter of my matches. Im used to DBD making me feel like I need to move, move, move as killer but this is on another level. Most survivors I encountered really were gen jockeys, and half of em weren't bad at chase either. So the killers I decided to play (Trapper, Legion, Michael) did not give me a good time. Id play nurse, but im afraid of getting stomped though since it's been forever lol, it'd be an adjustment.

    I've looked around and it seems many posters have talked about gen speeds (as if they haven't always xp) but i never really took those concerns seriously until now. Low mobility killers seem rough.

  • BelzherBelzher Member Posts: 292

    I play the game since December 2016, with a big break in 2018. Now I have 2.8k hours.

    The most annoying thing to me in the game is what someone here already said: the bandaid problem, where they want to fix the game with perks (which makes so you need to pay or play a lot of hours to get) instead of fixing the issues within the core game. Even with the slight nerf, CoH is still a pretty strong perk, Dead Man's Switch + Scourge Hook is too strong and other stuff that I don't have to mention since you guys probably know.

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